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Just now, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

I feel like surrendering to see the terms is also taking a similar leap of faith and it might be a matter of semantics. They already did the GOONS surrender. ūüėē

They aren't surrendering right just yet. They're agreeing to it as a final condition. They know this. I already outlined the reasons they don't want to agree to it which mostly have to do with their internal morale being based on not losing, so they're saying if they say that it's a lost war ahead of time, they will lose morale.

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19 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

They aren't surrendering right just yet. They're agreeing to it as a final condition. They know this. I already outlined the reasons they don't want to agree to it which mostly have to do with their internal morale being based on not losing, so they're saying if they say that it's a lost war ahead of time, they will lose morale.

I would think asking for surrender terms would signal they are thinking about it if the terms aren't bad & understand accepting the means surrender. If they're called surrender terms, the surrender parts goes without further explanation. So maybe you're over complicating it, not really sure why this is a communication issue.

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7 hours ago, ChloeJessica said:

and that was your choice, wasn't it? you chose not to take our word and you had to know the consequences of that when you did it. you are still the ones who escalated, not us.

Wasn’t exactly -my- choice, but I supported it.  And would do so again given the circumstances at that time.

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Just now, Buorhann said:

Wasn’t exactly -my- choice, but I supported it.  And would do so again given the circumstances at that time.

which is fine. but stop pretending we entered the war unprovoked.

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9 hours ago, Do Not Fear Jazz said:

Soup and TGH countered for TKR with war decs, meaning that you yet again expanded the war. Typhoid was hit after they countered NPO in defense of Senraizen.

Oh boy.

2 minutes ago, ChloeJessica said:

which is fine. but stop pretending we entered the war unprovoked.

You entered by provoking us, but continue putting your heads in the ground claiming otherwise.  Before then, we had done absolutely nothing towards your alliance.  At all.

No one in their right mind would have their members do spy ops when 1) They’re newly established or 2) They do it on alliances in the middle of a major war.

Thats just stupid, and the fact one of the justifications used was ‚ÄúWe‚Äôre a raiding alliance‚ÄĚ, well...

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The hows and why's don't really matter. If there's a hit by one member of the opposing coalition, all of the other side is liable. GOONS hitting TGH wouldn't do much to TGH, so it wouldn't harm the people who participated in the spying besides TGH proper who already are dead in that range. It's the same as the Empyrea issue. The coalition member with nothing to lose does something knowing they have nothing to lose, thinking the ones who have skin in the game won't take a hit and it won't work like that. There is no reason for limited or localized involvement when the core of KERTCHOGG has been unified and indicated it will remain as such. No core constituent has sued for individual peace and all are sticking to maintain the coalition.

Edited by Roquentin
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the cool thing is no one is losing 

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Holy 32 pages, and still going.

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Yes Buorhann keep up the blame game. You're a key member that will continue this war forever, as long as you stand strong.

Better yet, drag more alliances into the war. The more the merrier right?

But then again why listen to me? I'm just a stupid newbie that can't read and gathered intelligence on the wrong alliance.

Edited by RC Bandit
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1 hour ago, Roquentin said:

The hows and why's don't really matter. If there's a hit by one member of the opposing coalition, all of the other side is liable. 

So you and NPO can be held liable for every individual war declaration performed by your entire coalition? 

As much as I'd like to utilise the same logic in counter arguments in the future. I won't , simply because it is stupid logic and you know that yourself. You are utilising it because it is convenient to do so but don't make it the norm as we have more than enough nonsense already when it comes to e-lawyering.

 

Edited by Charles the Tyrant

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2 hours ago, Buorhann said:

No one in their right mind would have their members do spy ops when 1) They’re newly established or 2) They do it on alliances in the middle of a major war.

Thats just stupid, and the fact one of the justifications used was ‚ÄúWe‚Äôre a raiding alliance‚ÄĚ, well...

But that's the thing though. Nobody "had" anybody do anything. 

Yes, we are a raiding alliance. Newbies are not only allowed, but encouraged to raid.

They're told to only target inactive, small, or unconnected nations and alliances. Sometimes they screw up and target someone they're not supposed to. When that happens, our government deals with it and makes amends.

Most are happy with an apology and/or reparations, others apparently decide to drag us into a global war and cause billions in damage to their allies.

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@Shadowthrone and co,............Sigh..........but that you would talk to my leadership as much as you talk to me.

Anyways, I feel that I may have led you astray, and thus am obliged to put this one to bed.  You and your colleagues for the duration of this war have not, nor are capable of using the written or spoken word to change my mind.  The crux of my issue with much of what you say has to do with the sheer quantity of logical fallacies that pervade your posts (trigger point identified).  You do not need a decade of nation sim experience, nor personal knowledge to identify these.  And despite what little value you may place in someone who has an alternate view to you, Cooper is spot on when he says our internally and externally published positions are entirely consistent.  As for the concept of spin, well I'd suggest we move away from that notion as it is much like statistics, you can select and bend facts in support of any stance you choose (yet another trigger point), which is why common ground needs to be sought before we move on.  The surrender option is clearly not common ground.

Please do not misconstrue my choice to engage with you here with good manners and amicability as a lack of resolve or insight.  I may be new to PnW and online forums, but not elsewhere.  Be mindful that every time you post you expose yourself, which is why you will unlikely find any of my posts thrown up here quickly.  Furthermore I rate loyalty and honor as highly desirable qualities, I do hope I embody these and would quite rightly (as Cooper has done so) take issue with those who called these into question without foundation.  Nor will I be drawn into specifics or historical debate as I am wholly unqualified to comment in these arenas.  I will however attempt to contribute to commentary on current general notions present in the public sphere.

As a final note, and as has been highlighted, I am new, not involved in peace talks, hold no Government position, and as such represent myself and my opinion only!¬† I hope to be here for a while yet, real life permitting ūüĎć

Have a great day mate, I wish you well in all things :grinning:

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50 minutes ago, Etatsorp said:

@Shadowthrone and co,............Sigh..........but that you would talk to my leadership as much as you talk to me.

Anyways, I feel that I may have led you astray, and thus am obliged to put this one to bed.  You and your colleagues for the duration of this war have not, nor are capable of using the written or spoken word to change my mind.  The crux of my issue with much of what you say has to do with the sheer quantity of logical fallacies that pervade your posts (trigger point identified).  You do not need a decade of nation sim experience, nor personal knowledge to identify these.  And despite what little value you may place in someone who has an alternate view to you, Cooper is spot on when he says our internally and externally published positions are entirely consistent.  As for the concept of spin, well I'd suggest we move away from that notion as it is much like statistics, you can select and bend facts in support of any stance you choose (yet another trigger point), which is why common ground needs to be sought before we move on.  The surrender option is clearly not common ground.

Please do not misconstrue my choice to engage with you here with good manners and amicability as a lack of resolve or insight.  I may be new to PnW and online forums, but not elsewhere.  Be mindful that every time you post you expose yourself, which is why you will unlikely find any of my posts thrown up here quickly.  Furthermore I rate loyalty and honor as highly desirable qualities, I do hope I embody these and would quite rightly (as Cooper has done so) take issue with those who called these into question without foundation.  Nor will I be drawn into specifics or historical debate as I am wholly unqualified to comment in these arenas.  I will however attempt to contribute to commentary on current general notions present in the public sphere.

As a final note, and as has been highlighted, I am new, not involved in peace talks, hold no Government position, and as such represent myself and my opinion only!¬† I hope to be here for a while yet, real life permitting ūüĎć

Have a great day mate, I wish you well in all things :grinning:

@Shadowthrone How dare you not recognize a man of such intellect and scholarly virtue. Everyone knows that the largest vocabulary wins, and you good sir, frankly came to this battle of wits unarmed.

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3 hours ago, RC Bandit said:

Yes Buorhann keep up the blame game. You're a key member that will continue this war forever, as long as you stand strong.

Better yet, drag more alliances into the war. The more the merrier right?

But then again why listen to me? I'm just a stupid newbie that can't read and gathered intelligence on the wrong alliance.

I’d love to keep the war going, I’m perfectly fine with raiding away ala-Arrgh style as it is.

But before you go around accusing someone of dragging in alliances, you may want to take a very hard look at the very alliances you’re fighting alongside with.

You folks claim that we pulled GOONS in, but uh...  anyone want to make a list that IQ 2.0 pulled in?

This isn’t anything new.

2 hours ago, Of The Flies said:

Sometimes they screw up and target someone they're not supposed to. When that happens, our government deals with it and makes amends.

You are correct with this. ¬†Unfortunately, your government‚Äôs way of handling things is ‚ÄúTake my word.‚ÄĚ

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4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

The hows and why's don't really matter. If there's a hit by one member of the opposing coalition, all of the other side is liable. GOONS hitting TGH wouldn't do much to TGH, so it wouldn't harm the people who participated in the spying besides TGH proper who already are dead in that range. It's the same as the Empyrea issue. The coalition member with nothing to lose does something knowing they have nothing to lose, thinking the ones who have skin in the game won't take a hit and it won't work like that. There is no reason for limited or localized involvement when the core of KERTCHOGG has been unified and indicated it will remain as such. No core constituent has sued for individual peace and all are sticking to maintain the coalition.

So you agree that Jazz pointing out that ‚Äúwe escalated‚ÄĚ after their attack on TKR is simply just bullshit.

At least we agree on one thing then.

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How long do ya'll think this war can continue before one side ceases to exist entirely? 

I like to think that the war is going to continue forever, and at some point it's just going to be two alliances left with a few tens of nations each: the merged remnants of each coalition. 

 

So the Top 50 will consist of those two alliances and the rest will be Farksphere.

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1 hour ago, Malleator said:

How long do ya'll think this war can continue before one side ceases to exist entirely? 

I like to think that the war is going to continue forever, and at some point it's just going to be two alliances left with a few tens of nations each: the merged remnants of each coalition. 

 

So the Top 50 will consist of those two alliances and the rest will be Farksphere.

It's going to last until one of three scenarios are met.

1. One side's bank can't produce the materials/money to sustain the war and they have to peace out.

2. Both sides come to a compromise of sorts, and/or waver in their demands.

3.  Members in their respective Coalition leave because of the extreme positions being taken and either form/join new alliances or delete entirely.

Honestly?  Take your pick on which you think is most likely to happen.

Edited by Syrachime

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The bank one won't happen, unless it's a newer alliance.  Also, most of the well established alliances will offer loans to help cover the costs of war (Or threaten them to not leave).  Between looting, Baseball, and daily bonus - the war is at a point where most nations can easily rebuild to enough Infra to max out military if they wanted to.  The majority of the "important" damage has already been done 'physically'.

#2 could happen, maybe.  The talks haven't gone very well the times they occurred.

#3 will most likely happen, or has the greatest chance of happening imo.  IQ 2.0 already saw multiple alliances leave their side, whether it's due to this idea or the fact they were simply just not as invested into it (Or better yet, they were lied to in some cases).

 

Other than North Point, I don't think any other alliance bailed because they were absolutely broke.  Maybe some other micros who left earlier, but I don't recall it being stated.

Edited by Buorhann

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I'm personally hopeful that a compromise can be reached, but with the egos in the way, doubt it'll happen.  As such, I'm also inclined to believe that option 3 is the most likely outcome.  Like you said, with credits and daily login bonuses, financing the war isn't an issue.  Guess it will depend on how entrenched each side is in their position and how unwavering they are to compromise.  If both sides keep that up, the death of the game will be imminent and happen because of egos.  Proves that saying true that pride always comes before the fall...  Where the pride lays depends on who you ask, honestly as you'll get a different answer each time.

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1 hour ago, Syrachime said:

I'm personally hopeful that a compromise can be reached, but with the egos in the way, doubt it'll happen.  As such, I'm also inclined to believe that option 3 is the most likely outcome.  Like you said, with credits and daily login bonuses, financing the war isn't an issue.  Guess it will depend on how entrenched each side is in their position and how unwavering they are to compromise.  If both sides keep that up, the death of the game will be imminent and happen because of egos.  Proves that saying true that pride always comes before the fall...  Where the pride lays depends on who you ask, honestly as you'll get a different answer each time.

We kill each other, we kill the game = profit. Let's do this.

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 We really should enjoy the war while it lasts, there's a propaganda thread going to waste and we might not have as interesting a global for some time. Nuke rogue some neutrals, steal a bank, spam some discords and piss off your respective coalitions. :nyan:

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This continued argument is fine and all, but I think you all forgot the actual purpose of it. To find a middle ground so people stopped quitting due to the longest lasting war in our history. Between the Chaos/Ketog war and this one, we have been at war for 80% of the current year. During that time, politics sucked. Today, my country is being torn apart by politicians that can't agree on anything and manipulate the working class to get some leverage on one another. It's funny how this game reflects the same thing. Nothing is ever solved, the "leaders" don't look out for their members and the only thing that matters is their own stupid pride!!! get it together boys and girls, don't kill the game just yet.

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The thing about war is it's all about the victory conditions.

You might think you've beaten somebody, but until they agree with you, you haven't.

Some people are plain crazy and will never admit defeat.

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41 minutes ago, Ogaden said:

The thing about war is it's all about the victory conditions.

You might think you've beaten somebody, but until they agree with you, you haven't.

Some people are plain crazy and will never admit defeat.

Agreed. What we're saying is we'll negotiate peace once they admit they lost. Until then, we'll keep on fighting. While the peace negotiations are ongoing, we'll keep on fighting. If either side is unhappy with the negotiations, we'll keep on fighting. Essentially we're going to keep fighting til peace, or til the enemy's ability to fight is reduced to only soldiers as they're blockaded, their alliance has collapsed or cast them out, and their improvements, cash and resources are reduced to what they can make from baseball and the daily login bonus.

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9 hours ago, Seb said:

This continued argument is fine and all, but I think you all forgot the actual purpose of it. To find a middle ground so people stopped quitting due to the longest lasting war in our history. Between the Chaos/Ketog war and this one, we have been at war for 80% of the current year. During that time, politics sucked. Today, my country is being torn apart by politicians that can't agree on anything and manipulate the working class to get some leverage on one another. It's funny how this game reflects the same thing. Nothing is ever solved, the "leaders" don't look out for their members and the only thing that matters is their own stupid pride!!! get it together boys and girls, don't kill the game just yet.

What would you do then, Seb?

I'd argue that the alliances involved are looking out for their members who are actively participating.  It's not simply pride, but the future outlook of the game as well.  You have the largest alliances banding together to roll the smaller ones, one way or another.  And they will do so again.

Edited by Buorhann

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