peace talks

[Cooper_]

On 10/21/2019 at 3:00 PM, Roquentin said:

It's a hit on the coalition, so there isn't a need to symbolically hit some empyrea nation first.  You just have more of a robust presence where they are but they're fighting empyrea now as well iirc.

We hashed this out ad nauseam already with GPWC gov, and our problem with GPWC entering wasn't mainly that they did rather how they did.  I should note that these aren't too dissimilar to my arguments against your entry as well.  

Disclaimer: I don't blame GPWC for these actions as they are new and still getting adjusted to the politics and such, but I do feel that NPO hasn't been fully forthcoming with their protector.  Also, this opinion is based off of my interactions with GPWC and observation of communications between NPO and GPWC, so this is my point of reference.

Put simply, we had some informal agreements and were given previous statements that weren't consistent with what eventually transpired.  I'm not going to delve into the details as I don't need to throw out people's dirty laundry here but NPO, I'm sure, is aware of the details.  Yet what we were told is that GPWC had the reasonable desire to hit Empy after all of their antics, but somehow this was morphed into a need to hit Coalition B.  Those aren't one and the same as we saw with T$' and your original entry into the war.  You can hit targeted alliances and declare rules especially with the strategic nightmare that GPWC represents to the lower tier of Coalition A.  AFAIK GPWC wasn't informed or given this option in their decision-making.  I really like Anna and some of the other guinea pigs, so I'm hoping that this case was just one of miscommunication or maybe manipulation of outside actors versus one of deception.  I mean it might've been that if they tried to follow T$' original entry that they would've had Chaos counter (even if as a Chaos gov that isn't necessarily probable due to the strategic situation), but that is the worst case possibility and it would represent the situation today.  Thus, it would've made sense for them to take that tact, but it seems like they were told that the current path was the only viable path.  

11 hours ago, Roquentin said:

iirc it was CoS inviting you not it being based on a survey.  CoS butted heads with other alliances in the prior war. CoS signs TKR who has tensions with those same alliances. See the picture? Why would KETOG be a vehicle to hit Chaos? I've known that it was in the works for a while and that Chaos wasn't typically seen as their primary rival. Citadel is a different thing all together since it was more like a way to not get chained into wars from what I can tell. 

Chaos had tensions with alliances and specific grievances which have been cited. The whole "delightiing in players leaving", the Valinor raid, etc. There's enough tension with the actual alliances where it would make sense. I mean, it was denied by Ripper after but Manthrax said before that Chaos was in part a reaction to perceived excesses by certain people

I think your further post on the TKR logs quite clearly sums the order of things.  I believe there is no claim of a vendetta against NPO just a want to change things up with our FA (and Orbis) and work with new people.  Also, as a note, that's only TKR's view (but this is the one I'm most qualified to give).  Our internals are consistent with our ideas here.  I believe that the lines any gov gives to its members should be in sync if not the same as the tacks they take in public (and in private).  Transparency.

11 hours ago, Roquentin said:

I don't know what she said, but ultimately it was just too little too late after a solid week of sniping. Also no, they got upset because they already had those prejudices and weren't fond of NPO. It's sort of dancing around the issue. I never signed up for a one and done deal in terms of people like GOB/Guardian having to actually do more than one round of war.  I'm sure they have the ear of the government at times and shadow gov is a very real thing and has nothing to do with me being a male chauvinist(i'm not but that's where you were going) . Some of the best puppets have been male like Redarmy and Dynamic.  There are  plenty of shadow gov influenced alliances like Rose. Ever meet the guy who has more power than most gov officials in the game but has no high gov title?

Note to @Dio Brando: This isn't meant to single you out rather I just see you as the Smith of NPO, so you're a good example.  I don't believe these claims below rather they are just an example.
Yes, some individual members have opinions.  That doesn't decide policy.  It's like saying because dio doesn't like alliance X, NPO doesn't like alliance X.  I'll let you in on a little secret.  Here are the active members of the TKR FA Chat: Adrienne, Benfro, Menhera, Cooper, Schirminator and Goldyhammer.  All of whom are either high gov, royalty or FA Gov.  I haven't seen any of these people, who actually determine TKR's FA direction making those sort of comments.  Unless, there is some giant TKR conspiracy that I (someone who has access to most of TKR's secret information even more than some of our high gov) have no idea of, then this shadow gov claim is just categorically false.  Also, again this falls under these arguments that are impossible-to-prove/impossible-to-disprove.  Yeah, you can claim them, but I can say "oh boy look at dio, he isn't listed on NPO's website yet has Roq's ears.  Hence Roq and Keshav are illegitimate and just kowtowing to the awesomeness that is dio brando."  I mean you claim it's untrue and show pictures of conversations and such, but the problem is that any counterclaim is incoherent since there is a fundamental epistemological disagreement on what we consider is the burden of proof for "who runs an alliance and who doesn't."  I hope by providing this example about NPO which I could easily claim that I show that this shadow gov argument is literally nothing more than a piece of illogical gobbledygook.  Until you can provide compelling evidence and agree to the standard terms of debate instead of positing speculation as a defense, then there is no point in furthering that point.  I'm sorry for getting so meta there, but it frustrates me when such arguments are made, and I shall say that "you" is collective and referring to any actor who tries to use a similar strategy.  

11 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Um, if you antagonize someone you want to keep out, then it means you want it to happen later on and think they won't react. Don't provoke someone if you don't want them to hit you. 

Not really.  I was getting tons of heckling and the people who wanted to dismantle BK aren't traditional friends and don't have any common goals.  There has been a BK hate bandwagon for a long long time looking to leave the station. Making it seem like the logs provoked a spontaneous reaction is just ill-informed at best, disingenuous at worst. There is no other logical target.

No one who was making FA decisions was provoking NPO.  We don't control our individual members or even our gov.  The people in such a position of making those decisions told you exactly what I've stated before.  Also, I don't understand how niz reaching is too little too late given that she is literally in an authoritarian position to determine TKR decisions.  If she says we don't plan on attacking, there are no eventualities where we attack outside of a coup (which FYI wasn't happening). 

With this spontaneity argument, you are making the same fallacy above and playing with the burden of proof to tip it in favor of your scales.  Our public and private communications both indicate that we had no idea of these logs, so unless you have stronger evidence than conspiracizing I will continue to maintain that.  Trust me if I knew those logs existed weeks before KETOGG ripped my nation apart and brought some hard times on my members, I would've acted.  I personally find it an affront because such a speculation would assume that we would willingly put our members through duress to reach such a political end, which is fundamentally against everything we have tried to instill in our community.  I know that TKR slack is isolated from everyone else, but that presupposition is outlandish and antithetical to everything we do.

11 hours ago, Roquentin said:

As for Kayser, again, mutual goals, mutual distrusts, and so on. If we have an agreement we don't trust TKR and a common view they are looking to be top dog again, then if someone changes that last minute, the relationship is problematic. No mutual goals,  no ambitions, no common targets(wishy washy on KETOG) = pointless. Condescension, last minute changes,  accusations of leaking, accusations of covert treaties made to justify pulling the rug out from under us, etc are just manifestations of fundamental dislike from tS. 

 

I mean the position of agreeing to not trust TKR is just as problematic as the allegation against Chaos of being anti-NPO.  Also, you did have a common goal to protect the bloc and shared interest to protect your members from war.  As for the "dislike," I can't comment on N$O internals, but an observation is that it usually isn't just one side that causes a rift.

11 hours ago, Roquentin said:

We don't have anything to offer those blocs. With allies, it's more of a tS issue,  as there's no common interest  due to the damascene conversions upon Kayser's disappearance, so the relationship was devoid of anything that brought it together and there was no interest there in bridging the gap in a strategic manner. Other people allied to tS had different thinking that wasn't all  or nothing. This idea you have where everyone else thought KERCHTOGG were on the road to making the game great again is wrong though.  So to move off tS and talk about the other blocs: They don't have anything to offer us.  We have nothing to offer them besides staying out they can roll BK or rolliing BK ourselves.

I think this is a bit naive in thinking that how things were dictates how things will be.  In philosophy, this is known as the genetic fallacy (lots of interesting stuff there if you want to, for example, google the invention of the post-it).  As Kev said previously, Chaos expected to be working with all different partners including N$O.  We thought it might be interesting to an isolated hit together to improve estranged relations and also get to work in some new dynamics as is true to our stated FA goals.  Chaos was watching real closely, and if you didn't get involved, you would've found a much more friendly Chaos.  You already had decent relations with KETOGG which are now ruined.  Even Fark is now affected by Horsemen since you parted ways on quite bad terms.  This is not to mention the constant rhetorical ammunition you've thrown at the legitimacy of Rose whether it's through claims of shadow gov or being puppets to KETOGG.  I encourage you to have a more open perspective because we had a lot to offer you and many plans to even included NPO cooperation.  All we wanted to see is that we could operate in good faith with your claims and that you could value your ties to someone else besides BK over BK.  It was disappointing when this was disproven.  I still have hopes, but they are diminished unfortunately.

 

[Changeup]

Edited October 22, 2019 by Changeup
uploading images is a pain

[Kevanovia]

1 hour ago, Archibald said:

Kev, I love you bud, but everything you just said (ESPECIALLY the line about "TKR had to drop their allies to join us") would be defined as collusion by straight up anyone if asked. Like oof.

I’m not following...The only way that TKR would be allowed into the bloc would be if they cut all ties. We were fully prepared to create Chaos without TKR. How is that considered collusion? ?

Edited October 22, 2019 by Kevanovia

[Zim]

2 hours ago, Comrade Marx said:

-snip-

Stop making me question the intelligence of the average GOON member more than I already am. Aren't you from SomethingAwful? Why are you trying to lie about your  reason to enter the war? for PR point? 
We know it bullshit, you know it's bullshit, so why bother? You getting as defensive as an SJW. 

Beside acting like a chinese version of NPO, aren't helping your reputation.
Embrace your shittyness, make a meme out of yourself and you would be better of. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Zim

[Adrienne]

On 10/20/2019 at 1:48 PM, Shadowthrone said:

We do  

Haven't lied, we shared the information with tS/HS and they disagreed with the necessity of using it now amongst other things. We decided it'd be too late to wait on it. 

Thanks for admitting the logs don't exist ? But seriously, if your two closest allies disagree with your assessment of whatever the logs are, that's probably a good indicator they aren't as juicy as you think.

[Archibald]

2 hours ago, Zim said:

Stop making me question the intelligence of the average GOON member more than I already am. Aren't you from SomethingAwful? Why are you trying to lie about your  reason to enter the war? for PR point? 
We know it bullshit, you know it's bullshit, so why bother? You getting as defensive as an SJW. 

Beside acting like a chinese version of NPO, aren't helping your reputation.
Embrace your shittyness, make a meme out of yourself and you would be better of. 

how is arrgh still around

y'all really did sleep on stamping out the turds in this game before we came along, didn't you?

[Zei-Sakura Alsainn]

13 minutes ago, Archibald said:

how is arrgh still around

y'all really did sleep on stamping out the turds in this game before we came along, didn't you?

Actually before you came along I was doing it, and then I got caught in the war. Right as you guys got dragged in I resumed my activities.

I thank you again for covering for my absence. Orbis needs it's dutiful trash collectors to keep the streets clean.

 

[Cypher]

2 hours ago, Nizam Adrienne said:

Thanks for admitting the logs don't exist ? But seriously, if your two closest allies disagree with your assessment of whatever the logs are, that's probably a good indicator they aren't as juicy as you think.

Hi. We didn’t disagree with the information shared to us, we simply disagreed with the course of action they went with. NPO were told under what conditions we (HS) would have been fine with if they entered the war, albeit this was post declaration, whereas tS was firmly against expansion throughout.

[Comrade Marx]

3 hours ago, Zim said:

Stop making me question the intelligence of the average GOON member more than I already am. Aren't you from SomethingAwful? Why are you trying to lie about your  reason to enter the war? for PR point? 
We know it bullshit, you know it's bullshit, so why bother? You getting as defensive as an SJW. 

Beside acting like a chinese version of NPO, aren't helping your reputation.
Embrace your shittyness, make a meme out of yourself and you would be better of. 

In 100 words or more please explain how not mad you are with GOONS.

[The Mad Titan]

11 minutes ago, Cypher said:

Hi. We didn’t disagree with the information shared to us, we simply disagreed with the course of action they went with. NPO were told under what conditions we (HS) would have been fine with if they entered the war, albeit this was post declaration, whereas tS was firmly against expansion throughout.

Yet T$ was fine with protecting those who directly participated. Almost like you can't directly lay all the blame on NPO.

[Etat]

3 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

I’m not following...The only way that TKR would be allowed into the bloc would be if they cut all ties. We were fully prepared to create Chaos without TKR. How is that considered collusion? ?

It isn't collusion based on what I've read on this thread, but the word makes us sound bad right?  For what it's worth, and despite some questionable forum posts, I think Goons are a marvelous antagonist in PnW What will the future bring?

[Archibald]

1 hour ago, Akuryo said:

Actually before you came along I was doing it, and then I got caught in the war. Right as you guys got dragged in I resumed my activities.

I thank you again for covering for my absence. Orbis needs it's dutiful trash collectors to keep the streets clean.

 

That's what we're here for, bb

[Michaellaneous]

Bash all the fash.

[DivineCoffeeBinge]

1 hour ago, Michaellaneous said:

Bash all the fash.

Damn right

[Daniel Storm]

11 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

Put simply, we had some informal agreements and were given previous statements that weren't consistent with what eventually transpired.  I'm not going to delve into the details as I don't need to throw out people's dirty laundry here but NPO, I'm sure, is aware of the details.  Yet what we were told is that GPWC had the reasonable desire to hit Empy after all of their antics, but somehow this was morphed into a need to hit Coalition B.  Those aren't one and the same as we saw with T$' and your original entry into the war.  You can hit targeted alliances and declare rules especially with the strategic nightmare that GPWC represents to the lower tier of Coalition A.  AFAIK GPWC wasn't informed or given this option in their decision-making.  I really like Anna and some of the other guinea pigs, so I'm hoping that this case was just one of miscommunication or maybe manipulation of outside actors versus one of deception.  I mean it might've been that if they tried to follow T$' original entry that they would've had Chaos counter (even if as a Chaos gov that isn't necessarily probable due to the strategic situation), but that is the worst case possibility and it would represent the situation today.  Thus, it would've made sense for them to take that tact, but it seems like they were told that the current path was the only viable path.  

Hitting Empyrea only and expecting you guys not to counter for them would have been the naive option. The biggest threats were eliminated first and thanks to that GPWC has faced near-zero resistance carving through Coalition A's low tier and bathing in your loot and burnt steel. You need to take a step back if you think the path of entry most beneficial to TKR (Only hitting Empy and giving TKR et. al. the option to counter) is the correct one for GPWC.

[Shadowthrone]

10 hours ago, Nizam Adrienne said:

Thanks for admitting the logs don't exist ? But seriously, if your two closest allies disagree with your assessment of whatever the logs are, that's probably a good indicator they aren't as juicy as you think.

Nope. The focus was not to expand on TKR, we saw it differently. Mind you, it wasn't a disagreement on if they were juicy or not, just the necessity to expand. We saw it absolutely necessary to expand given that a KERTCHOGG victory and BKsphere capitulation/losing that bulwark was untenable for N$O and in essence multi-polarity. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Shadowthrone

[Patrick Stewart]

37 minutes ago, RC Bandit said:

I'm not reading all of the 25 pages.

 

How close are you guys to ending this war? Or are we just going to fling insults and acquisitions until the end of times? 

The latter, obviously

[Roquentin]

18 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

We hashed this out ad nauseam already with GPWC gov, and our problem with GPWC entering wasn't mainly that they did rather how they did.  I should note that these aren't too dissimilar to my arguments against your entry as well.  

Disclaimer: I don't blame GPWC for these actions as they are new and still getting adjusted to the politics and such, but I do feel that NPO hasn't been fully forthcoming with their protector.  Also, this opinion is based off of my interactions with GPWC and observation of communications between NPO and GPWC, so this is my point of reference.

Put simply, we had some informal agreements and were given previous statements that weren't consistent with what eventually transpired.  I'm not going to delve into the details as I don't need to throw out people's dirty laundry here but NPO, I'm sure, is aware of the details.  Yet what we were told is that GPWC had the reasonable desire to hit Empy after all of their antics, but somehow this was morphed into a need to hit Coalition B.  Those aren't one and the same as we saw with T$' and your original entry into the war.  You can hit targeted alliances and declare rules especially with the strategic nightmare that GPWC represents to the lower tier of Coalition A.  AFAIK GPWC wasn't informed or given this option in their decision-making.  I really like Anna and some of the other guinea pigs, so I'm hoping that this case was just one of miscommunication or maybe manipulation of outside actors versus one of deception.  I mean it might've been that if they tried to follow T$' original entry that they would've had Chaos counter (even if as a Chaos gov that isn't necessarily probable due to the strategic situation), but that is the worst case possibility and it would represent the situation today.  Thus, it would've made sense for them to take that tact, but it seems like they were told that the current path was the only viable path.  

It doesn't really matter. There was enough justification as Pop said to hit you If anything, your previous taking advantage of them was the problematic aspect in the first place as it was just based on someone new getting hit hard(lol). Limited involvement in a coalition war is pointless and they don't even care about those niceties. They're happy to get the targets as raid targets ran out.

Quote

I think your further post on the TKR logs quite clearly sums the order of things.  I believe there is no claim of a vendetta against NPO just a want to change things up with our FA (and Orbis) and work with new people.  Also, as a note, that's only TKR's view (but this is the one I'm most qualified to give).  Our internals are consistent with our ideas here.  I believe that the lines any gov gives to its members should be in sync if not the same as the tacks they take in public (and in private).  Transparency.

Note to @Dio Brando: This isn't meant to single you out rather I just see you as the Smith of NPO, so you're a good example.  I don't believe these claims below rather they are just an example.
Yes, some individual members have opinions.  That doesn't decide policy.  It's like saying because dio doesn't like alliance X, NPO doesn't like alliance X.  I'll let you in on a little secret.  Here are the active members of the TKR FA Chat: Adrienne, Benfro, Menhera, Cooper, Schirminator and Goldyhammer.  All of whom are either high gov, royalty or FA Gov.  I haven't seen any of these people, who actually determine TKR's FA direction making those sort of comments.  Unless, there is some giant TKR conspiracy that I (someone who has access to most of TKR's secret information even more than some of our high gov) have no idea of, then this shadow gov claim is just categorically false.  Also, again this falls under these arguments that are impossible-to-prove/impossible-to-disprove.  Yeah, you can claim them, but I can say "oh boy look at dio, he isn't listed on NPO's website yet has Roq's ears.  Hence Roq and Keshav are illegitimate and just kowtowing to the awesomeness that is dio brando."  I mean you claim it's untrue and show pictures of conversations and such, but the problem is that any counterclaim is incoherent since there is a fundamental epistemological disagreement on what we consider is the burden of proof for "who runs an alliance and who doesn't."  I hope by providing this example about NPO which I could easily claim that I show that this shadow gov argument is literally nothing more than a piece of illogical gobbledygook.  Until you can provide compelling evidence and agree to the standard terms of debate instead of positing speculation as a defense, then there is no point in furthering that point.  I'm sorry for getting so meta there, but it frustrates me when such arguments are made, and I shall say that "you" is collective and referring to any actor who tries to use a similar strategy.  

Well there has to be some reason people don't want to take your word for it. Maybe it's because they've been told similar things in the past and then people revealed they weren't actually representative of TKR's opinions? 

Smith and DIo aren't comparable. Smith has been at the forefront of TKR FA before and definitely has Adrienne's ear.  He was a public face of TKR for mulitple years and people still see him as such. Dio has had people's ears but he's never been at the same stature as Smith with regards to shaping FA or being perceived as the face of NPO. The leadership has always been out there and Smith in all likelihood has provided Adrienne with tutelage and guidance and he has been prominent via Smofftopia and other things showing his involvement in FA with TKR's allies.

Quote

No one who was making FA decisions was provoking NPO.  We don't control our individual members or even our gov.  The people in such a position of making those decisions told you exactly what I've stated before.  Also, I don't understand how niz reaching is too little too late given that she is literally in an authoritarian position to determine TKR decisions.  If she says we don't plan on attacking, there are no eventualities where we attack outside of a coup (which FYI wasn't happening). 

With this spontaneity argument, you are making the same fallacy above and playing with the burden of proof to tip it in favor of your scales.  Our public and private communications both indicate that we had no idea of these logs, so unless you have stronger evidence than conspiracizing I will continue to maintain that.  Trust me if I knew those logs existed weeks before KETOGG ripped my nation apart and brought some hard times on my members, I would've acted.  I personally find it an affront because such a speculation would assume that we would willingly put our members through duress to reach such a political end, which is fundamentally against everything we have tried to instill in our community.  I know that TKR slack is isolated from everyone else, but that presupposition is outlandish and antithetical to everything we do.

I mean the position of agreeing to not trust TKR is just as problematic as the allegation against Chaos of being anti-NPO.  Also, you did have a common goal to protect the bloc and shared interest to protect your members from war.  As for the "dislike," I can't comment on N$O internals, but an observation is that it usually isn't just one side that causes a rift.

I think this is a bit naive in thinking that how things were dictates how things will be.  In philosophy, this is known as the genetic fallacy (lots of interesting stuff there if you want to, for example, google the invention of the post-it).  As Kev said previously, Chaos expected to be working with all different partners including N$O.  We thought it might be interesting to an isolated hit together to improve estranged relations and also get to work in some new dynamics as is true to our stated FA goals.  Chaos was watching real closely, and if you didn't get involved, you would've found a much more friendly Chaos.  You already had decent relations with KETOGG which are now ruined.  Even Fark is now affected by Horsemen since you parted ways on quite bad terms.  This is not to mention the constant rhetorical ammunition you've thrown at the legitimacy of Rose whether it's through claims of shadow gov or being puppets to KETOGG.  I encourage you to have a more open perspective because we had a lot to offer you and many plans to even included NPO cooperation.  All we wanted to see is that we could operate in good faith with your claims and that you could value your ties to someone else besides BK over BK.  It was disappointing when this was disproven.  I still have hopes, but they are diminished unfortunately.

 

Um, she's used the fact that she may have not intended to act right away in the war as a way to qualify her statements. All of the reports were she'd act whenever it was time and it'd be soon after she locked BK down or after she beat BK.  She may have been looking for a bigger opening in the future if she wasn't 100% confident, but the sentiment was there that there was enough tension for her to pursue it and an NPO in relative isolation while TKR would be riding high off a victory and renewed political capital and perhaps even a mondo Chaos merger, was just too much to stomach. 

We didn't have decent relations with KETOGG lol.  They knew about the plans to hit them but they were all attributed to me solely so it was going to come out that I was pushing to follow them either way. They didn't know about the individual grudges some people had but were already aware about the composition issues I had with it so they also jumped on that knowledge after and it became "Roq is out to get us and kill us off and he manipulated pwoor little tS into everything. He is awful and we hate him".  As I said, KETOGG hasn't really cared about my concerns since they aren't beneficial for KETOGG to care about. It's  in the  way KETOG's interest to consolidate its power in the way it wants to as they had pretty much deliberately been collecting heavy hitters. They don't owe me anything and they've never operated in such a fashion. The part about Fark is more about not entering sooner as the situation would have been avoided by entering mere days earlier when it would have been better to do so as there was quite  a bit of enthusiasm for fighting and I don't think Fark cares as much as you think they do on that since they mostly were trying to prevent WTF from being alone in that obligation.  At the end of the day, we've already proven we didn't have it as a goal to pixel hug while everyone else burned and have gone above and beyond to bring about a satisfactory outcome to the war.  We didn't use anyone as a meatshield. If anything, we are the ultimate meatshield but the idea of being a meatshield is stupid anyway in this game. The main players on our side will usually take the biggest hits baring super high infra in smaller alliances(usually accounts for discrepancy) and less experienced players quitting.   As for  Chaos, we don't really have anything in common with Chaos at all and the hostility would still be there with us in an especially vulnerable position. Chaos was also up in the air with possible disbandments/mergers and the only people who clashed with other groups were likely to take a back seat in mergers, so it'd just be your gov which courted every other group.  The rose claims are specifically because they know have to prove otherwise. Everyone else aware of it thinks what I do and I was even told the new leader had pledged to do away with the shadow gov. Rose cannot be considered wholly separate from KETOG until the issue is dealt with and every government will find itself dealing with the claims of shadow gov being in charge. I'm sure mhearl and others are fully aware of this. Just because I have the balls to write about it here doesn't mean it's not a widely-known thing.

I already put forth a lot of examples where we had to cover for tS who were living on easy street instead of just doing what was in the immediate interest of BK and others. They snapped the cord when it became clear they were seceding from N$O unilaterally by signing additional alliances under extremely unacceptable circumstances and it could no longer be done. They always had priority over other alliances as long as they didn't try to override our ability to defend ourselves against actual threats. We posed enough of a deterrent to coalition B to not pursue the grievances over a bunch of things much sooner and they had typically felt their hands were tied by our presence. When we could no longer justify fulfilling such a role, what happened happened. Ultimately, before we entered BK faceplanted on the defensive and everyone knows that they had already sold their infra, so BK wasn't exactly riding high either way.  Simply the fact that everyone thinks that Aragorn can be an !@#$ at times(even himself) just doesn't override all other strategic interests. Helping someone who isn't easy for people to get along with is sometimes  simply better than facilitating their destruction and risking worse people in a threat sense coming to power.

17 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

I’m not following...The only way that TKR would be allowed into the bloc would be if they cut all ties. We were fully prepared to create Chaos without TKR. How is that considered collusion? ?

The TKR forum post specifically says they will continue to collaborate with their former allies(two of whom were already paperless for over a year.) If you had created Chaos without TKR, you would have retained the standing as an outside of the box maverick type group that CoS/SK had before allying TKR, so it's not my fault you made yourself into a target that way.  You knew it would be shots fired.

5 hours ago, RC Bandit said:

I'm not reading all of the 25 pages.

 

How close are you guys to ending this war? Or are we just going to fling insults and acquisitions until the end of times? 

These aren't actual peace talks and besides, peace is a lie and WAR IS REAL(a few people will get this reference).

Edited October 23, 2019 by Roquentin

[Pasky Darkfire]

1 hour ago, RC Bandit said:

I'm not reading all of the 25 pages.

How close are you guys to ending this war? Or are we just going to fling insults and acquisitions until the end of times? 

Your mother was a hamster, your father smelt of elderberries, and GOONs are a fun loving bunch of degenerates. You also have a anime Fetish. That's about where we're at.

[Prefontaine]

I know Sphinx and TheNG are the negotiators for one side, who are the ones on the other? Perhaps instead of this public shit show that's just going in circles its time to let them work together privately to move towards a solution. Leave the hot-heads out of it and have an actual adult conversation about it. One side wanting a surrender before giving terms, and another side wanted to know the full list of terms is not a hard problem to solve. An example of this can be as simple as the representatives agreeing that the first term will be a surrender and no public statement of such will be given until the rest of the terms are decided upon. There's also different variations of such. 

The point is that it's a simple thing to fix in a conversation between a handful of people versus the public theater of these forums. I'm using the idea of "theater" very loosely here. It currently more closely represents the drunk crazy guy on the corner yelling at the street light. Don't have the limitations of "We'll ask you at the beginning of each month if you surrender, if not another month of war", or whatever exactly it is/was. We need a little dose of maturity, civility, or whatever you want to call it. Sure, trust has been hurt on both sides and some real bad blood will likely remain. But as things are, I feel like the person who wins this war is actually the side who actually makes some steps towards civility. You can be enemies and still civil. I know that I've not always acted that way in the past, but take that as I understand why it is important to take the gloves off and have an actual conversation. 

I'm not saying you have to end the war if you guys don't want to. It's your war. But the reason for the hang up is stupid. Either let the people negotiating solve it, because it's farking easy to solve, or keep warring and stop trying to convince one another your shit doesn't stink. 

[Roquentin]

I mean, the fact it derailed into just blaming each other for the lack of trust means the topic has kind of outlived its purpose, but there's no real moderation here in terms of it going off-topic but the issue is civility has been lacking for a while. I wouldn't be opposed to ending the discussion, but most of the trust issues are the root of the impasse and one side has basically had the platform to lay the blame at the feet of the other so it's ultimately just giving a counter-narrative.

[Pasky Darkfire]

2 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Smith and DIo aren't comparable. Smith has been at the forefront of TKR FA before and definitely has Adrienne's ear.

I think you give Smith WAAAY too much credit. Have you met him? He couldn't have an ear of corn. (Love you Smith.)

2 hours ago, Roquentin said:

. Dio has had people's ears but he's never been at the same stature as Smith with regards to shaping FA or being perceived as the face of NPO.

Dio Should most definitely be your face. Better than Keshav. Some Offense.

[Prefonteen]

43 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

I know Sphinx and TheNG are the negotiators for one side, who are the ones on the other? Perhaps instead of this public shit show that's just going in circles its time to let them work together privately to move towards a solution. Leave the hot-heads out of it and have an actual adult conversation about it. One side wanting a surrender before giving terms, and another side wanted to know the full list of terms is not a hard problem to solve. An example of this can be as simple as the representatives agreeing that the first term will be a surrender and no public statement of such will be given until the rest of the terms are decided upon. There's also different variations of such. 

The point is that it's a simple thing to fix in a conversation between a handful of people versus the public theater of these forums. I'm using the idea of "theater" very loosely here. It currently more closely represents the drunk crazy guy on the corner yelling at the street light. Don't have the limitations of "We'll ask you at the beginning of each month if you surrender, if not another month of war", or whatever exactly it is/was. We need a little dose of maturity, civility, or whatever you want to call it. Sure, trust has been hurt on both sides and some real bad blood will likely remain. But as things are, I feel like the person who wins this war is actually the side who actually makes some steps towards civility. You can be enemies and still civil. I know that I've not always acted that way in the past, but take that as I understand why it is important to take the gloves off and have an actual conversation. 

I'm not saying you have to end the war if you guys don't want to. It's your war. But the reason for the hang up is stupid. Either let the people negotiating solve it, because it's farking easy to solve, or keep warring and stop trying to convince one another your shit doesn't stink. 

We are right. This amateur hour needs more P-Power.

[Abbas Mehdi]

On 10/16/2019 at 3:30 AM, Roquentin said:

 

It's not explicitly clear. Everyone knows the comparison is a joke. You're using on paper stats for that. The numbers don't do much if people have an expectation of winning right away or not trying, so by getting hit first and losing a lot of military in the first round, many of the less experienced alliances gave up pretty quickly. I mean this has happened pretty frequently in globals, so trotting it out is awkward. I personally told Cov/BK when they originally approached me they should be able to make use of the forces already in the war, but the will just wasn't there for a lot of the people and eventually they either dropped out or deserted or went inactive. Suiciding is still considered crazy by a lot of people, even and those people will drop out/halfass. The reason your coalition has gotten so many withdrawals is  mostly due to people not wanting to play correctly and do what it takes to win. You're in way worse shape than a lot of the alliances who peaced out.

There aren't enough alliances for those to be separate spheres and it would leave you and KETOG to be the strongest. I've already gone over how most of the heavy hitters in KNightsfall aligned with KETOG/Rose and the transfer of members from rose to KETOG who were the heavy hitters of Rose was done in a conflict shortly before Surf's Up.

Convincing people who we have nothing in common with at all whose interest is for us to gimp ourselves by letting dominoes fall is pretty useless. It wouldn't have been a utopia and we'd have not been able to beat the other spheres ourselves alone while also triggering considerable resentment by sitting out despite having the ability to make an impact. It would have been a repeat of previous wars where two spheres weren't sufficient on their own and chose to let the other take the bigger hits or just not enter at all.  We had to break that cycle.  Your notions of smaller ignore military capacity and informal connections. For instance, there was zero possibility of Boyce/Bluebear/etc. or Rose's big boys ever opposing KETOG in any sense.  We can all imagine fantasy land where abbas is opposing keegoz/sketchy xfd. ockey is gonna hit abbas totally and so on. So no, having people like DTC/other whales and GOB/Guardian in the same orbit doesn't cut it for me. Sorry.

 

Actually I have blocked ockey over 5 months ago. Sketchy has stopped talking to me and keegoz is no longer on speed dial. But I am still tight with DTC yes. 

[Raphael]

I think this war has broken a forum record for most 20+ page threads

Edited October 23, 2019 by Vivec