peace talks

[Zim]

17 hours ago, Sphinx said:

I'd be more interested in hearing you explain how you've somehow won. :,v 

Aren't you zeroed? Your beige time is nearly over and you not even trying to rebuild. 

1 minute ago, Pop said:

I'd like to take this time to remind Coalition A that you wouldn't have had to fight GOONS or GPWC if you hadn't attacked them first. There sure is a lot of !@#$ing about them on here considering that y'all literally dragged them into a war they had no intention of joining.

Imagine sacrificing the low tier just so you could have another thing to whine about on the forums ?

The GOONS hit 3 alliances on our side, before the coalition even acknowledge they where at war with them, no idea what you on about. If our coalition wasen't as passive as it was, the frist blitz would have been enough to pull them into the war, as Arrgh wanted.
GPWC had several incidents, before they got involved where they acknowledged they where in the wrong, and even paid reparations for this. And their excuse for finally joining the war, was attacks from mirco meme alliance... that split of from Empyrea. 
So they hit a bunch of alliances not even treaty bound to Empyrea... make sense i suppose. 

Sacrificing the low tier? Mate i think you need to drop your score down, and get a reality check. Because all does 15-25 city guys you pressed out of the mid tier, where do you think they are? 

[Roquentin]

Well if they don't give a shit about Arrgh(lol) then that's one thing, but the thing Altmoras is referring to is the spying incident.  They only hit the other two after that. 

Um, he's not talking about that range. He's talking about the real low tier.

With the micromeme alliances, they were let back into Empyrea. Empyrea is the E in KERTCHOGG, so all of KERTCHOGG is responsible as they have chosen to stick together for the forseeable future. Just like when  we hit TKR, all of KERCHTOGG responded in full force even people without any treaty links to Guardian/GOB like Rose.  So this is the precedent you set. Your solidarity doesn't only apply when it's beneficial. You are one giant bloc now.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Roquentin

[The Mad Titan]

6 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Just like when  we hit TKR, all of KERCHTOGG responded in full force even people without any treaty links to Guardian/GOB like Rose.  So this is the precedent you set. Your solidarity doesn't only apply when it's beneficial.

NPO+BK war cooperation = BAD!

KERCHTOGG war cooperation = Just what needed to be done. 

[Wendell]

8 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Well if they don't give a shit about Arrgh(lol) then that's one thing, but the thing Altmoras is referring to is the spying incident.  They only hit the other two after that. 

Um, he's not talking about that range. He's talking about the real low tier.

With the micromeme alliances, they were let back into Empyrea. Empyrea is the E in KERTCHOGG, so all of KERTCHOGG is responsible as they have chosen to stick together for the forseeable future. Just like when  we hit TKR, all of KERCHTOGG responded in full force even people without any treaty links to Guardian/GOB like Rose.  So this is the precedent you set. Your solidarity doesn't only apply when it's beneficial.

Arrgh wouldn't have been caught siding with NPO to begin with...

[Wendell]

10 minutes ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

NPO+BK war cooperation = BAD!

KERCHTOGG war cooperation = Just what needed to be done. 

You're absolutely wrong. KT Empryea and Golden Horde have had WRITTEN treaties for at least as long as I have been playing. Which is two years BTW. They never stab each other in the back or say they have secret loyalties to each other should their treaties end. I may not always agree with KERCHTOG but I do honor their integrity.

NPO and BK had treaties and then agreed to cut all relations with one another publicly. You can't claim treaties and past loyalties only when it's beneficial. @Roquentin

(And can you really blame Arrgh, we've NEVER had any "loyalties")

Edited October 21, 2019 by Deulos

[Roquentin]

5 minutes ago, Deulos said:

You're absolutely wrong. KT Empryea and Holden horde have had WRITTEN treaties for at least as long as I have been playing. Which is two years BTW. They never stab each other in the back or say they have secret loyalties to each other should their treaties end. I may not always agree with KERCHTOG but I do honor their integrity.

NPO and BK had treaties and then agreed to cut all relations with one another publicly. You can't claim treaties and past loyalties only when it's beneficial. @Roquentin

(And can you really blame Arrgh, we've NEVER had any "loyalties")

Er,  you're thinking KETOG not  KERCHTOGG. KERTCHOGG inlcudes Chaos/Rose(lol) who have no formal links to KETOG.

We didn't have any formal relations or coordinate policy. As I already said, they would have realized KERTOG was more or equally aggressive compared to Chaos if there had been.

Hope this helps.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Deulos said:

Arrgh wouldn't have been caught siding with NPO to begin with...

We've worked with Arrgh on multiple occasions when our interests aligned. That's the main thing. We're willing to work with almost anyone if we have common goals. I don't really have an issue with Arrgh except that it mostly operates as an extension of KETOG.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Roquentin

[Wendell]

1 minute ago, Roquentin said:

Er,  you're thinking KETOG not  KERCHTOGG. KERTCHOGG inlcudes Chaos/Rose(lol) who have no formal links to KETOG.

We didn't have any formal relations or coordinate policy. As I already said, they would have realized KERTOG was more or equally aggressive compared to Chaos if there had been.

Hope this helps.

 

Wait so why is T$ upset with you? Lol

 

[Roquentin]

1 minute ago, Deulos said:

 

Wait so why is T$ upset with you? Lol

 

tS is upset because they tried to box us into a corner because they weren't really seeing it in a military sense and assumed the deal would protect them/us forever and they also assumed we were leaking everything out in spite of various activities of theirs not seeing the light of the day. They let a dislike based on some incidents between them and BK overwhelm other considerations and in doing so tried to make us stay out for the benefit of the parts of the other coalition they wanted to be more friendly with. I mean the worst case scenario is it was intentional to keep us out, so our purpose would be served and then we'd be cut loose and that would explain the lack of worry about the power vacuum and lack of potential alliances to work with if we had to fight a massive coalition on our own.

[Pasky Darkfire]

This Thread.... A summary:

[Majima Goro]

For all the people out here, ET was never tied to any alliance in KERCHTOGG.

[Menhera]

@Roquentin

I still don't get why the guinea pigs wouldn't hit empy or at least their direct allies instead of two random other alliances in their Coalition.

[Do Not Fear Jaz]

2 hours ago, Roquentin said:

He knows what he's talking about though since he was a government member in a different alliance at the start of the war. It's more the thing is I didn't come up with the idea flood the game with new alliances mid-war to kill everyone else off, which is how it's been depicted. The idea for GOONS has been tossed out about for a while and the only time I brought it  earnestly up was before NPO existed  since Sardonic wanted to implement some sort of new political paradigm and the game was fertile ground for that. Oh also few times ComradeMilton was asked why there wasn't a goons here and he felt it wasn't possible at the times he was asked. If they're choosing to die of their own accord, it's one thing, but there wasn't like a meeting where we devised plans to completely wipe all these people out by bringing in new alliances. They're kind of dying on their own swords.

Don't lie Roq, there is most certainly a plan. 

[Roquentin]

1 hour ago, Menhera said:

@Roquentin

I still don't get why the guinea pigs wouldn't hit empy or at least their direct allies instead of two random other alliances in their Coalition.

Because their direct allies aren't alive in those tiers so it'd be consequence-free practically and their direct allies would be less unnerved by it because they are more hardcore in terms of not caring. Same reason you guys like to put pressure on newer and peripheral allies so they ditch. We're going to deploy alliances where it makes sense and no good cop bad cop routine should stand in the way. You committed to each other for all intents and purposes in this war and I've heard beyond, so you are on the hook just as you benefited from your choice to align with them. You are going down with the ship to use your sides terminology. TKR/Soup = Empyrea

Edit

Nicer explanation:

Anyway, so the Soup Kitchen was hogging all the carrots and lettuce and TKR is a giant carrot, so nature took its course.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Roquentin

[Prefonteen]

3 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

Well the Unjust Highway ascends, and when we do, we do it with no censorship

GGA flashback trigger.

[Mars]

On 10/18/2019 at 11:04 AM, Epi said:

@what is property? What was your experience with terms? Are we Coalition B-Bad man or were we willing to negotiate ?

Ive had a positive experience all things considering, if anything i might be at fault for the way things turned out in the end and i will admit ive been shown a surprising amount of goodwill from the people ive interacted with on your side. cant speak about the rest.

Ive also had a good experience fighting alongside kelloggs so theres that.

That being said, personally ive stayed away from all the name calling and endless threads about who did what and had no involvement in the politics of it all, so that might have helped. Being competitive is one thing but getting drawn into permanent animosity is another.

In fact i was pretty reluctant to even post in this thread since for me its way beyond the point where i can pay attention to things that have nothing to do with me really.

What i will say is you have good people on both sides and it can be a cool experience win or lose but the over-arching narrative of the war is silly and it takes way too much energy to even follow it let alone get invested in it, especially after so many months.  I believe apart from a few people that have 'serious' gripes with each other, it would be a mistake for the vast majority of combatants to make it personal since we re all here to stay, one way or another.

Good luck to everyone involved and keep it healthy.

Ill see myself out now

[Menhera]

1 hour ago, Roquentin said:

Because their direct allies aren't alive in those tiers so it'd be consequence-free practically and their direct allies would be less unnerved by it because they are more hardcore in terms of not caring. Same reason you guys like to put pressure on newer and peripheral allies so they ditch. We're going to deploy alliances where it makes sense and no good cop bad cop routine should stand in the way. You committed to each other for all intents and purposes in this war and I've heard beyond, so you are on the hook just as you benefited from your choice to align with them. You are going down with the ship to use your sides terminology. TKR/Soup = Empyrea

Edit

Nicer explanation:

Anyway, so the Soup Kitchen was hogging all the carrots and lettuce and TKR is a giant carrot, so nature took its course.

 

I see, even if i don't completely agree with your reasoning, that kind of explains why TGH etc. weren't hit.

But you didn't answer the question completely :<

Empy itself, who you are using as CB, is in the same range as TKR/Soup and as such completely hittable for the guinea pigs. (whose name i absolutely love by the way ^.^)

So why not attack them directly, but TKR and Soup? Even if we are in the same coalition, not attacking them when they are your justification for the war entry doesn't make much sense.

[Roquentin]

44 minutes ago, Menhera said:

 

I see, even if i don't completely agree with your reasoning, that kind of explains why TGH etc. weren't hit.

But you didn't answer the question completely :<

Empy itself, who you are using as CB, is in the same range as TKR/Soup and as such completely hittable for the guinea pigs. (whose name i absolutely love by the way ^.^)

So why not attack them directly, but TKR and Soup? Even if we are in the same coalition, not attacking them when they are your justification for the war entry doesn't make much sense.

It's a hit on the coalition, so there isn't a need to symbolically hit some empyrea nation first.  You just have more of a robust presence where they are but they're fighting empyrea now as well iirc.

[Cooper_]

27 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Also screw reading anything Roq posts while on mobile.  Good lord the walls are annoying.

It's wall or nothing my friend  but oh boy here it comes.

15 hours ago, Roquentin said:

It wasn't a huge change but it was clear from your outreach to former enemies and others that you were going against certain alliances. The whole IQ as generic thing doesn't really cut it with me because there were actual tensions with the individual alliances. So I've even heard of the trade bot term is being painted as draconian and that it's a major reason for your resistance to give up, so if you have it in for the people who did it, then that's not going to matter if they have a bloc or not.

To be honest, if Chaos was really never going to engage in another political war again then they should have been more vocal about it. Like I doubt anyone would feel any fear if they thought it was just a bunch of people screwing around with random 1 on 1s. If your goal was basically to depoliticize the game, then there was no transparency on that and  it just looked like Chaos was a vehicle for revanchism. It's really hard to believe a bloc with at least 2/3 alliances having bad history and dislike of others would just do random hijinks instead.

I don't see anything here beyond conjecture and circumstantial evidence at best if anything at all.  If you really want to know how we chose the alliances we did, then it's quite simple.

1) We gave our members a survey on their impressions of alliances in Orbis because culture is one of the most important points of any treaty as you probably know.

2) We talked with lots of different alliances and found a few major options.

3) We discussed our goals, and came to the previously stated conclusions 

I almost fear responding to your points because it is creating a false equivalency between the facts that have been proven with logs, our declaration of existence and the people who actually have knowledge of our internal affairs versus your characterization (that is quite likely biased) of our alliances and taking more out of logs than is there.  I don't doubt your ability to intuit, but I do doubt your ability to objectively analyze the facts (at least in your public statements).  I mean, using your form of logic, I can rationalize Chaos as being formed to hit BK, KETOGG as a vehicle to hit Chaos, and citadel as a bloc formed to hit Camelot.  There really isn't too much water in this argument especially when we try to generalize it to similar structures and find that the main theme here is a shared FA goal.  KETOGG wished to maintain independence, Chaos wanted to create chaos and "press reset" as kev said (not some notion of revanchism nor depoliticization), citadel wanted to try something new among some of the smaller/medium-sized alliances.  Also, a question here on the "IQ as a generic thing."  If we weren't just focused on IQ, how come you have no evidence of our plans against NPO post-IQ breakup?  I mean sure there are out-of-context logs and banter, but there are no plans.  That seems to be a major flaw in that argument besides the fact that it wasn't even based in facts in the first place

In the context of transparency, you can look at our bloc declaration.  I have to yet to see us act against those philosophies.

On 10/20/2019 at 5:30 AM, Roquentin said:

lol. I wouldn't go on this line of TKR having always acted honorably.  The point isn't that the narrative is from x, y, z but rather that it is super plausible and the level of trust isn't there. I'm not really sure how Adrienne tried to talk us down?  Everyone she interacted with came away with the impression she was gonna strike whenever it was opportune.  This combined with Smith's constant baiting and the pronouncements by TKR people of NPO ruining the game like Lordship and Mitsuru before we hit TKR made it pretty clear that a lot of people there had issues.

If niz didn't communicate that to you, then yes that is something we can work on, but I also posit that you most likely didn't listen (or didn't want to listen) to what she was saying.  Also, we both know that Mitsu, Lordship and Smith getting rightfully annoyed at you and T$' games wasn't a buildup to anything you hadn't already engaged.  Chaos is the last bloc you should list if you want to discuss who is threatening who.  FYI they have no influence on our FA policy at all given that they are either non-gov or econ in the case of mitsuru.  I won't engage the shadow gov argument because that is just plain disrespectful to Adrienne who AFAIK is the sole female leader of a strong alliance in Orbis.

On 10/20/2019 at 5:30 AM, Roquentin said:

There was plenty of attention directed at us lol. It was clear to some extent people in TKR held NPO responsible and kept calling us out. CovBKsphere is the only one that doesn't have a history of beating on people for appearing to be bigger purely based off nationcounts and it was the only one if it was salvagable to take on KERTCHOGG or KERTOG or whatever permutation might have existed. We wouldn't have had another move to make short of KETOG/Chaos breaking up themselves and moving to different spheres after.  The concerns we typically shared with the Cov/BK side were immaterial to KERtCHOGG and people like us were usually seen as bigger problems. KERTOG had a diametrically opposed worldview which we had no way of reconciling with them wanting to appear small numbers count/treaty-wise while at the same pooling the best fighters into one sphere. With Chaos it seemed to be more of the same, with Ripper saying that closing gaps wasn't the reason behind his participation in Knightfall.  Signing TKR and protecting the former TKR allies with the TKR leaks showing they planned to keep TCW as a secret ally, raised tons of suspicion along with Rado's pivot to KT/TGH fa-wise and then making soup.

Our PR was never going to be great for a multitude of reasons and I already explained our strategic position was served by avoiding an overwhelming defeat for BK. The thing with allies or rather tS in particular there was an understanding with the prior FA head and that a scenario where BK got totally annihilated wasn't beneficial. There were a lot of issues with BK cited in terms of diplomatic incidents but there was agreement that balance-wise, it wouldn't be ideal for such a scenario to transpire as a result of us cancelling. This changed when the FA head disappeared and even then I was understanding of the fact that they felt BK had been too combative in some situations and they might want to see BK get bloodied. However, when the damage had already been done and BK was looking to be in dire shape and losing support, the stance they had didn't change. Others involved either saw the same issues we did or were more understanding of our concerns about a domino effect even if they thought it was paranoid and were more open to doing stuff. At the end of the day, it just was never part of any arrangement we had that enabling the annihilation of that sphere was a cornerstone of our sphere especially since it was known to some extent there was no way they could live up to the paper stats. It would also establish the precedent that we would have to follow directives from them in all future situations and rely purely on their connections as we'd have burned any bridges we had with anyone else. So when they're changing things up from leader to leader and don't really think of highly of us with condescending comments of "you kept losing to people like us for years," I can't really let them determine our fate solely.

The only attention was directed at keeping you out.  There are numerous logs or forum archives you can check to affirm this.  Yes, when T$ entered that put a spotlight on you as well, but we had no interest to expand and have stayed consistent to that externally and internally.  I don't think "bring it on" is a prelude to an attack rather it's by definition reactionary and defensive.

As for your PR, it would've been much better because you would've affirmed the breakup of IQ which we were skeptical (albeit still believed for all intents and purposes in terms of actions).  Also, that whole BK thing is just untrue because the only thing uniting our coalition were those logs, which we allowed that N$O weren't aware of.  Consider that even if BK fell you'd be the most powerful sphere (although not necessarily so powerful as to invite anti-hegemony claims) and you'd be in a position where the coalition that took down BK would have a lot less in common with the loss of uniting logs post-BK fall.  

I think you fundamentally misunderstand how you and your allies should cooperate.  This should be a healthy relationship not one based on power dynamics.  It seems that your problems go much further than a lack of continuity of an FA head.  It's important to note as well that Kayser is also as anti-TKR as they come, so it's not exactly a fair perspective.  Concerning burned bridges, there shouldn't have been an obligation for you to help BK, so if they held that against you then that is assuming a broken obligation.  Otherwise, it's just as baseless as those who get mad at Fark for not joining in the war.  

On 10/20/2019 at 5:30 AM, Roquentin said:

You're assuming PR with KERTCHOGG is the same as relations with people in general or that we would have been popular by sitting out. There were actually more ties with one side(just optional though), but we weren't trying to be an extension of the Cov/BK sphere at the time and the idea behind cancelling was that they were strong enough to not lose badly so it wouldn't be us totally screwing them by dropping to execute the prior deal. At the same time,  there was no reason not to assume we wouldn't be a big target after.  It would be logical if BK sphere collapsed to go after the next biggest sphere, as comparisons had been constantly made to show we were super big compared to everyone else despite a lot of it being protectorates like Cov/BK, so we would  easily end up becoming victims of the same propaganda.  Salt and 69 were curbstomps  so it is still compelling. It didn't result in heavy losses for TKR to fight those alliances.

With any bloc that isn't BK (including your own allies), your PR is much worse.  

On 10/20/2019 at 5:30 AM, Roquentin said:

Well everyone says we're acting too much in our interests, so I don't know how this works. I don't know that you know what our best interests are.  Our FA goal was to contest the consolidation of KERTCHOGG and avoid the return of beatdowns on "blobs" by the  "git gud" squad and encouraged abandonment of allies. I've even been told that some people are in fact just preferring to fight perceived paper tigers.

Well, you bring an aura of innocence to the table due to being almost entirely new. I"m just not convinced that the things you say are wholly representative of what TKR is thinking.

I'm not everyone.  I'd like to believe I only operate on facts, a few guiding principles and ideals, and a healthy dose of optimism for the future of the game.  My argument is still valid irrespective of what others say.  What I'm saying is that you acting in your perceived interests is not actually helping your interests.

And yes all of TKR FA is now like this.  @Menhera and I are new players with a lack of prejudice against most alliances along with @Benfrowho is not really significantly tied or biased besides maybe some previous bank ties.  This is the TKR FA team who can all claim this "innocence" .  Just remember that when you're analyzing our actions because we are the ones who are advising Niz on her actions.  I hope that more alliances, including NPO, shares our perspective in looking forward and moving past our past old grudges.

[namukara]

So, reading this thread tells me one thing:

Disband. Everybody disband.

[Guest Elijah Mikaelson]

8 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

NPO+BK war cooperation = BAD!

KERCHTOGG war cooperation = Just what needed to be done. 

How do Roq wipe with your head so far in the way?

[ChloeJessica]

3 minutes ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

How do Roq wipe with your head so far in the way?

do you have anything to actually contribute or do you do nothing but shitpost? cause all ive seen are shitposts.

[dancemasterlee]

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi

[Majima Goro]

14 hours ago, Menhera said:

@Roquentin

I still don't get why the guinea pigs wouldn't hit empy or at least their direct allies instead of two random other alliances in their Coalition.

They didnt want to have PTSD from being rolled by the said ET members obviously.

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi