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11 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Um, except every time it's happened before, it's eventually known to be the case that it was based on something real It also wasn't the sole reason. The actual reason was to balance the war out because of the considerable risk to our security from the KERTCHOGG coalition having a cakewalk victory  which was in the statement where it says this is why we declare war on TKR. You've focused on the proximal cause for the target choice not the overall aim.

I'm sorry but aren't those two things pretty much the same thing? Because in order to fear KERTCHOGG as a threat after they beat BK you would have to have some reason to think they're gonna hit you... Which comes back to the secret logs you have. Otherwise it's paranoia.

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21 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

You guys want to know why this entire war is bullshit on Coalition B's views?

Here's a couple of reasons:
1)  NPO pretty much threw everything in this, despite this "not being their war" initially.  GOONs, GPWC (Despite telling us that they're not part of this, but hey that changed quickly), their own allies, etc.

2) People are worried about what Keegoz/Sketchy said.

3) Majority of CBs from them are against TKR, but not against Chaos as a whole or KETOG, or both of our spheres - just TKR.

I  mean, if we're in a war, we're all in. don't see the point in limited involvement.  The threats from you guys made it so we had to be in it to win it entirely. If there hadn't been so much anger it wouldn't have gotten to this level. I mean even if there had been anger and it cooled down then we could have had some calmer discussions and not gotten this heated.

With GPWC, some newbs were intimidated at first into neutrality and then your Empyrea friends rogued them on splinter AAs and went back to Empyrea after, and your coalition was held responsible so they were deployed to the best targets available.

Same thing with GOONS and the spying. Collective bargaining means collective responsibility for the others actions. Taking Soup Kitchen and TKR out of the equation in terms of being vocal and having lower tiers was the best deployment possible.

The CBs in terms of what information we got are TKR-oriented. I could have given BK cbs on KT or Rose if I was always actually leaking all the intel I got via tS or those people like I've been accused of doing. Like Zevfer asked me to roll BK and it was further substantiated by tS saying Rose wanted to roll BK when BK sphere militarized when surf's up started. That was all said in confidence and it would have been a betrayal of their trust even if  I wasn't planning to help them do what they wanted or disagreed with it. We don't have the type of CB on KETOG or Rose where it's an imminent threat, rather it's a risk. With TKR we had both independent mutual contacts and there was an additional risk of the MegaTKR merger which would mean defacto end of Chaos so if KERTCHOGG won and that happened,  it would have it a pretty narrow field.

 

6 minutes ago, Toph said:

I'm sorry but aren't those two things pretty much the same thing? Because in order to fear KERTCHOGG as a threat after they beat BK you would have to have some reason to think they're gonna hit you... Which comes back to the secret logs you have. Otherwise it's paranoia.

Well, I've had you're a threat because of your positioning CB used on me before and everyone complaining now praised Partisan/tS for it despite us having no plans to hit them at the time.

Edited by Roquentin
edited to include rationale for gpwc/goons
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You brought yourself in the war at the expense of lieing to your allies.

I just find it surprising you were paranoid of a MegaTKR despite the fact that KETO(G) fought them more than NPO or BK did.

So instead of sitting back to see if any animosity develops from the Surfs Up war, you just go All In for your precious BK after -they- fricked up.

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3 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

 That was all said in confidence and it would have been a betrayal of their trust even if  I wasn't planning to helll, I've had you're a threat because of your positioning CB used on me before and everyone complaining now praised Partisan/tS for it despite us having no plans to hit them at the time.

I actually have logs of you planning to hit them but I can't post them because reasons

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C0r3Fye.png

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2 minutes ago, Smith said:

I actually have logs of you planning to hit them but I can't post them because reasons

I ate them. You should've bought me cheeseburgers smith.

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15 minutes ago, Smith said:

I actually have logs of you planning to hit them but I can't post them because reasons

I mean, I already acknowledged there was an independent plan for a war on KETOG that would have been shorter in design and this was conveyed to them much earlier on.

 

13 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

You brought yourself in the war at the expense of lieing to your allies.

I just find it surprising you were paranoid of a MegaTKR despite the fact that KETO(G) fought them more than NPO or BK did.

So instead of sitting back to see if any animosity develops from the Surfs Up war, you just go All In for your precious BK after -they- fricked up.

How did I lie to my allies? I never made the promise that we would not ever enter on another front of the war if tS wasn't countered. Initially it appeared they wanted escalation so they could do the wider ketog thing but wanted ketog to counter, but then it became clear it was being negotiated to be a favorable side deal and we essentially would get blueballsed and not allowed to do anything and I didn't realize that that's what had gone down at first.

Edited by Roquentin
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On 10/16/2019 at 2:44 AM, Tarroc said:

I don't decide anything, I'm not in gov. From what I heard though, it's that defeat is admitted, but the terms can be negotiated beyond that. Admission of defeat in the war does not mean accepting all of the terms of peace, from what was being said. As I said though, I'm not gov, I can't speak for BK's official position, and I don't know the exact details of anything.

Not to be disrespectful, but this war isn't going to end with a victory for your side. TKR is down below 100K score, and has taken over a quarter of a trillion damage since the beginning of Knightfall. This war can go on forever and ever practically for both sides, and I imagine people on your side will quit the game and leave your alliances before people on our side get so bored that they give up on the war and accept a white peace. 

You are quite wrong my dear friend, my community is comprised of people who trust each other and respect each other. You yourself are an example of the BK community. You think I have no idea how bad your behaviour is to Sunara, well you are wrong, this war can last a thousand years and my guys will still play while you are experiencing an implosion at this moment. You especially are losing your rankings within Orbis as a whole

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49 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

You guys want to know why this entire war is bullshit on Coalition B's views?

Here's a couple of reasons:
1)  NPO pretty much threw everything in this, despite this "not being their war" initially.  GOONs, GPWC (Despite telling us that they're not part of this, but hey that changed quickly), their own allies, etc.

2) People are worried about what Keegoz/Sketchy said.

3) Majority of CBs from them are against TKR, but not against Chaos as a whole or KETOG, or both of our spheres - just TKR.

You can blame your wonderful leadership in TGH for the whole reason GOONS is involved in the war at all.

 

You really have no political sense and these last few posts have proven it. Enjoy your dumpster fire.

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12 hours ago, Epi said:

Rose renames its Discord to daffodil

I think it’s about time for another theme change we haven’t had one for a whole month 

Edited by Mhearl
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Just gonna be clear here, the whole bait and switching us into a chinese finger trap was one of the reasons I ended up going with the intel as it fit it perfectly because it felt almost as if tS had signed up to keep us out and it was being done for their friend's interests. No one else involved was as eager to get us blueballsed. Everyone else on the front was for escalation in the case of the two upper tier alliances brought in or amenable to some sort of limited expansion.  Until Sisyphus blew up on me about another potential entry point, I had no clue of the level of investment he had in locking us down and the whole "gotcha now you can't do it or else PR will be bad. we can roll x, yz, after" was frankly absurd.

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35 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

With GPWC, some newbs were intimidated at first into neutrality and then your Empyrea friends rogued them on splinter AAs and went back to Empyrea after, and your coalition was held responsible so they were deployed to the best targets available.

Same thing with GOONS and the spying. Collective bargaining means collective responsibility for the others actions. Taking Soup Kitchen and TKR out of the equation in terms of being vocal and having lower tiers was the best deployment possible.

Please don’t say you’re using something that Shadow did as a CB, because if you are you can’t even pretend to be acting in good faith.

Regarding Goons, they were caught spying 2 KETOGG government members, so we spied back in retaliation. If anything, Goons’s spying of us was their declaration of war.

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3 minutes ago, MCMaster-095 said:

Please don’t say you’re using something that Shadow did as a CB, because if you are you can’t even pretend to be acting in good faith.

Regarding Goons, they were caught spying 2 KETOGG government members, so we spied back in retaliation. If anything, Goons’s spying of us was their declaration of war.

You can't have him as gov and not gov when you choose. The fact that he and the other rogues were allowed back into KERTCHOGG proper as Chaos Lords meant essentially a tacit endorsement of their schemes. So if you're together for one thing you're together for everything. If you want to break with that, then let us know. We no longer had to hold back at that point.

Edited by Roquentin
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12 hours ago, Epi said:

Cooper [tkr] and Arthur [CAM] have to join an alliance named Trump 2020.

Yes, boost my ego by putting my name on an official peace deal.  Also, @King Arthur ❤️.

2 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

That's easy to say, yet harder to believe. Seeing how you have no idea who the source is, or what the conversation entailed and trying your best to get me to out it with the logs through multiple means is fun to watch though. I don't need to admit to your plans as they are your own. What I freely admit to though, is you said things that came to us, and decided to well backfire on you instead. It may be a good idea to not plan rolling NPO and pinning the blame on us, for things we weren't really involved in and make a hegemonic play and expect no resistance. 

 

Just from a purely logical standpoint, Niz and your claims are on an equal level epistemologically given that neither of you have presented any evidence.  You're functioning on hypothetical claims, so you'd expect the response to be in kind with hypothetical claims.  You can't claim foul because otherwise, by your logic, there is no way to actually respond to your claims because you simply stated it.  

1 hour ago, Do Not Fear Jazz said:

So you're saying you have no political goals to speak of? So either A. You have horrendous leadership who isn't capable of long term planning, or B. You are a chaos inducing entity because you lack any actual agenda and must be destroyed.

I can't comment for KETOGG nor Rose as they aren't my sphere, but for Chaos Bloc we believe in the honourgland. 

To actually answer you're question, our goals were posted in our bloc's existence post: 

Some of us believe in transparency :P 

36 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

I  mean, if we're in a war, we're all in. don't see the point in limited involvement.  The threats from you guys made it so we had to be in it to win it entirely. If there hadn't been so much anger it wouldn't have gotten to this level. I mean even if there had been anger and it cooled down then we could have had some calmer discussions and not gotten this heated.

With GPWC, some newbs were intimidated at first into neutrality and then your Empyrea friends rogued them on splinter AAs and went back to Empyrea after, and your coalition was held responsible so they were deployed to the best targets available.

Same thing with GOONS and the spying. Collective bargaining means collective responsibility for the others actions. Taking Soup Kitchen and TKR out of the equation in terms of being vocal and having lower tiers was the best deployment possible.

The CBs in terms of what information we got are TKR-oriented. I could have given BK cbs on KT or Rose if I was always actually leaking all the intel I got via tS or those people like I've been accused of doing. Like Zevfer asked me to roll BK and it was further substantiated by tS saying Rose wanted to roll BK when BK sphere militarized when surf's up started. That was all said in confidence and it would have been a betrayal of their trust even if  I wasn't planning to help them do what they wanted or disagreed with it. We don't have the type of CB on KETOG or Rose where it's an imminent threat, rather it's a risk. With TKR we had both independent mutual contacts and there was an additional risk of the MegaTKR merger which would mean defacto end of Chaos so if KERTCHOGG won and that happened,  it would have it a pretty narrow field.

 

It's more than this, though.  An outside observer would easily find that y'all are harboring a grudge against TKR, and the paranoia surrounding this has seemed to support.  Our leadership had no problem with NPO before the war because that isn't who we are.  TKR doesn't do grudges as our fundamental FA philosophy is founded on preventing such permanent relationships whether they be positive or negative.  The fundamental point here is that NPO has been shown to be blatantly anti-TKR, and I'm not going to claim whether it's intentional because I think you know the answer to that.  I'm sorry that we were the number-one in the past and we beat NPO in a couple of wars.  Now, you have done the same to us, and we aren't singularly anti-NPO because of it.  Sometimes the same old shtick just gets frustrating.  

Maybe consider actually changing your FA strategy instead of the spin?  It'd do wonders for NPO in terms of your PR and security interests (which from I've heard is your main concern), and let this game continue on from the deadlock that it's in.  

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14 minutes ago, Do Not Fear Jazz said:

You can blame your wonderful leadership in TGH for the whole reason GOONS is involved in the war at all.

 

You really have no political sense and these last few posts have proven it. Enjoy your dumpster fire.

Oh no, you mean how you were throwing your caught members under the bus while trying to extort more money after you were hit back en-masse?

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4 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

 

It's more than this, though.  An outside observer would easily find that y'all are harboring a grudge against TKR, and the paranoia surrounding this has seemed to support.  Our leadership had no problem with NPO before the war because that isn't who we are.  TKR doesn't do grudges as our fundamental FA philosophy is founded on preventing such permanent relationships whether they be positive or negative.  The fundamental point here is that NPO has been shown to be blatantly anti-TKR, and I'm not going to claim whether it's intentional because I think you know the answer to that.  I'm sorry that we were the number-one in the past and we beat NPO in a couple of wars.  Now, you have done the same to us, and we aren't singularly anti-NPO because of it.  Sometimes the same old shtick just gets frustrating.  

Maybe consider actually changing your FA strategy instead of the spin?  It'd do wonders for NPO in terms of your PR and security interests (which from I've heard is your main concern), and let this game continue on from the deadlock that it's in.  

It's not exactly a grudge. If you beat someone in a war and it's an alliance that was always on top, you're going to expect them to want to regain their former power and we're an obstacle. The FA drive done by TKR earlier in the year has just been said to have been vs IQ, but it was threatening enough to keep in mind and Chaos was basically a shots fired thing the way it happened as it was after tense disputes with CoS during the war and at the tail end. Earlier on, the intel from multiple sources indicated that there was hostility and we chose to act on that particular rationale partly because a winning war and a merger that would make TKR a sphere leader outright once more would be a huge momentum boost and a threat.

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17 minutes ago, MCMaster-095 said:

Please don’t say you’re using something that Shadow did as a CB, because if you are you can’t even pretend to be acting in good faith.

Regarding Goons, they were caught spying 2 KETOGG government members, so we spied back in retaliation. If anything, Goons’s spying of us was their declaration of war.

Two players, whom were new at the game and looking for raid targets spied for info on two members of TGH. TGH never approached GOONS and instead treated us as if we were a part of the war, even though we had repeatedly stated our neutrality. When I personally approached TGH, your lot basically told me to pound salt because we're allied to NPO and therefore fair game. 

While this was going on Keshav was attempting to get your coalition to tell you to cool it, and negotiations had already broken down. TGH/KERCHTOG wanted GOONS to post an official apology and statement of neutrality onto the OWF, without any reparations to GOONS for their loss of spies. A totally unreasonable request from a then month old alliance as it would be immediately be seen as a sign of weakness and cause us political issues down the road. 

 

TGH is the reason we blitz TKR. TKR was picked because it was the optimal war target within your coalition for GOONS. GOONS has a good relationship with TKR.

 

tl;dr: TGH hung their allies out to dry and forced GOONS to declare on them.

 

e: You can confirm with any of coalition b's leadership that GOONS did not provide spy reports to the coalition. 

Edited by Do Not Fear Jazz
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4 hours ago, Of The Flies said:

Snip

Ok my love. At this point you’re inexplicably still not getting it, and you think I’m not getting it, so let’s just end this. We had a good run, but it’s just not working anymore. It’s not me, it’s you. Take care. 

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This reinforces my point from earlier. If pride is all that is keeping TGH and the rest of KETOG from coming to the table, it is at the expense of your other coalition allies. Your short-sighted, childish behavior added another 100 nations and 80k score to your opposition, and against your own allies. 

 

And unlike y'all, we have a deep pool of recruits to draw from and firm financial backing.

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I specifically asked for 50m as I viewed it as a token of good faith between GOONS and TGH to stop the behavior. 50m is a drop in the bucket, and I was told no.

 

If TGH can't do the math that their refusal to pay 50m has caused $3,181,006,355 in additional net damage to TKR, SK and Typhoid then you truly should disband now and let far superior alliances such as my own control world politics.

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Yeah, I've read the chat log and I back my government member on it.  You're allied to NPO, you were caught spying, and you were retaliated against within reason.  Just because you have "idiots for members" does not excuse the attack.

DNFJ10/01/2019
I'm aware of, maybe, two spy reports against you guys from our members
Being idiots

-----------

This is the interesting thing.  You admitted you were aware of it, yet you were trying to play the victim card and asking how come we didn't approach you about it before retaliating.

Had you come up and said "Hey, some members of mine did some spy attacks, sorry about that" - that's one thing, but no, you decided to try and put the blame on us.

We didn't initiate anything onto GOONS, we only reacted, and given the fact NPO is pulling everything they have at their disposal (And later admitting they've been trying to get you guys into the war) - well, we had to go based on what we have in front of us.  Seeing as how NPO also stated that GPWC wasn't meant to be in the war, but they kept attacking us...  can't exactly take the word of GOONS here either.

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Just now, Khris Kruel said:

again, you pulled in 3 bil of damage instead of just paying 50 mil reps. Do the math.

I get what you're saying, but I don't trust you guys and quite honestly, I don't think you'd have stayed out of the war even then.

Afterall, the discussion between your precious leader and my government member showed that Jazz wasn't willing to give us assurances that GOONS would stop to begin with.

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