[DOE] Under one banner, The Red Banner

[Lu Xun]

On 10/30/2019 at 6:58 AM, Sphinx said:

You realise Kalev's Estonian right? ;,p 

He's got good reason to hate Communism. 

More that for him, Communism is a form of Russian imperialism. In Russia itself, it has much respect because Russia went to crap after the Soviet Union died. Eastern Europe, on the other hand, did not in the whole have a good experience when the Warsaw Pact died, but they got money and investment. They were invited to the EU. Excepting hellholes like the Former Yugoslavia, most of the former Warsaw Pact benefited with the death of the Soviet Union.

 

As with most historical phenomenon, there are always winners and losers. The Warsaw Pact was a net win for Soviet elites and a disaster for the semi-industrialized states of Central and Eastern Europe.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Inst

[Big Brother]

3 hours ago, Inst said:

More that for him, Communism is a form of Russian imperialism.

That hardly even begins to describe what Communism is. No matter how you look at it I don't see how you can reduce the entire ideology, which was initially and primarily based on the writings of Germans, to be merely some form of Russian imperialism. Some people might use Communism as an excuse to pursue their imperialist ambitions but that doesn't mean the ideology of Communism itself is actually imperialist, it just means that people lie and deceive in order to achieve their goals.

Also, Estonians have good reason to hate a bunch of people:

[Charles Bolivar]

I wonder how much fuss would be made if someone created an Italian fascist themed alliance?

[Kosta]

An Iron curtain had descended upon Orbis. Yet another alliance created in the name of Communism/Socialism. Its effects are yet to be discovered...

Jokes, aside. Best of luck guys! Always cool to welcome new alliances into Orbis.

[Lu Xun]

On 11/1/2019 at 3:53 AM, Big Brother said:

That hardly even begins to describe what Communism is. No matter how you look at it I don't see how you can reduce the entire ideology, which was initially and primarily based on the writings of Germans, to be merely some form of Russian imperialism. Some people might use Communism as an excuse to pursue their imperialist ambitions but that doesn't mean the ideology of Communism itself is actually imperialist, it just means that people lie and deceive in order to achieve their goals.

Also, Estonians have good reason to hate a bunch of people:

 

Communism is actually a confused term given that it's the name of Marx's utopian society, wherein the concept of property has been abolished and everyone's needs have been met.

 

In practice, Communism tends to refer to political entities that are under the control of a one-party Marxist-Leninist state, usually with a planned economy as well as a police state.

 

As to whether it's reductionist, I'm pointing out that, in contrast to Sphinx's claim that denizens of the former Soviet bloc detest communism, that people's experiences and memories of the Communist period vary, especially when nationality comes into play. An Estonian is more likely to have a negative view of the Communist period, given that Estonia is doing well in the post-Communist era. A Russian, especially an elderly one, might miss the Soviet Union and the certainties they grew up with. Or, they might have more nostalgic views of when the Soviet Union was great, even if their living standards were little to brag about.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Inst

[Lu Xun]

On 11/1/2019 at 10:37 AM, Charles the Tyrant said:

I wonder how much fuss would be made if someone created an Italian fascist themed alliance?

At least it's not Nazism.

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/world/europe/italy-racism-daisy-osakue.html

[Big Brother]

1 hour ago, Inst said:

 

Communism is actually a confused term given that it's the name of Marx's utopian society, wherein the concept of property has been abolished and everyone's needs have been met.

 

In practice, Communism tends to refer to political entities that are under the control of a one-party Marxist-Leninist state, usually with a planned economy as well as a police state.

 

As to whether it's reductionist, I'm pointing out that, in contrast to Sphinx's claim that denizens of the former Soviet bloc detest communism, that people's experiences and memories of the Communist period vary, especially when nationality comes into play. An Estonian is more likely to have a negative view of the Communist period, given that Estonia is doing well in the post-Communist era. A Russian, especially an elderly one, might miss the Soviet Union and the certainties they grew up with. Or, they might have more nostalgic views of when the Soviet Union was great, even if their living standards were little to brag about.

Ah yeah, you're right about all that and I see what you're saying now. Estonians and people in other Baltic countries might very well perceive Communism as being imperialist without that being something the ideology is supposed to propagate. Sorry about that. Guess I'm just used to people writing stuff about Communism that is just flat out wrong.

[Sphinx]

10 hours ago, Big Brother said:

Ah yeah, you're right about all that and I see what you're saying now. Estonians and people in other Baltic countries might very well perceive Communism as being imperialist without that being something the ideology is supposed to propagate. Sorry about that. Guess I'm just used to people writing stuff about Communism that is just flat out wrong.

The experiences of Eastern Europeans to Leftist ideals are so different to Western Euros/Americans that no comparison can be drawn. Its why things like "White Guilt" and rehabilitation of Marxism of which people on the left promote in their own countries would get the shit kicked out of them in Eastern Countries. To a Western Leftist, "White Guilt" is as a result due to the oppression inflicted by Colonialism/Imperialism and the enslavement  of people in the third world. When you mention Slavery, imagines of Blacks enslaved and brought to the Americas are conjured. Whilst the ideologies of Marxist and Communism in general for Leftists are sanitised to portray simply the desire for a society of equality and one free from oppression. The experiences of Eastern Europeans are a polar opposite to that of the West. Easterners experienced slavery first hand for centuries far longer than the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade, first under centuries of Tartar raids into the Kievan Rus, PLC, Muscovy and Hungary, and then with Ottoman forced conscription throughout the Balkans. Their own countries from Hungary, Serbia, Ukraine, Greece, etc etc were colonised by not just Muslims but by fellow Europeans who in many cases pursued policies to stamp out the native Eastern cultures. (Forced Germanisation of Poland, Russification, Venetian conquests of Greek and Croatian cities etc). Then throughout the 20th century, the people of Eastern Europe, from the Greece right upto Finland suffered some of the worse crimes in human history, with tens of millions of Slavs, Baltics, Greeks, Magyars, Romanians etc, killed in Communist uprisings, famines, civil wars, WW1, and the genocides inflicted by the Nazis and Soviets. 

Inst's point about experiences being different is 100% correct. For many Russians and Serbs they look fondly upon the USSR, Yugoslavia since despite the periods of democide it was during those state's existence when their ethnic group was the dominant one. For the USSR it was clearly an Eastern Slavic centralised state, and Soviet policies of resettlement brought hundreds of thousands of Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians into the Baltic states which its most likely if the USSR never collapsed countries like Estonia and Latvia would have their native populations in the minority. Communism for these people (Baltics) brought with it cultural oppression, genocide, forced deportation and many other disasters. When Westerners wonder why the East is so right wing or anti-Immigration, or "Traditionalist" their experiences of the 20th century will tell you why.

The Western 'Conservative', especially the American view of what Communism is I agree is completely wrong. I've got my own issues with American 'Conservatism', since despite considering myself being pretty far right in Australia, I'm left of the Democrats and guys like Bernie Sanders in many aspects. On a side note I think this tweet by PragerU, symbolises what's wrong with American 'Conservatism', which is clearly little more than Corporatism.

So basically you're a Peon for your corporate masters, according to those geniuses.

Kinda rambled on about politics a bit, and I've gotta write a History essay so I need to head off, but happy to chat more about this in DMs or here if you wish. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Sphinx
typo

[Big Brother]

2 hours ago, Sphinx said:

The experiences of Eastern Europeans to Leftist ideals are so different to Western Euros/Americans that no comparison can be drawn. Its why things like "White Guilt" and rehabilitation of Marxism of which people on the left promote in their own countries would get the shit kicked out of them in Eastern Countries. To a Western Leftist, "White Guilt" is as a result due to the oppression inflicted by Colonialism/Imperialism and the enslavement  of people in the third world.

The experiences are different yes, but no one is promoting white guilt. Supporting accountability and promoting learning about the transatlantic slave trade doesn't mean that you or anyone else has to feel guilty. However, if you do read about the slave trade and don't feel a single shred of sympathy for the people who experienced the terrible things that were done to them, there's probably something wrong with you and I think the same can be said for many things European colonial powers did. It's not really about admitting or assigning guilt as much as it is about acknowledging that part of history to ensure that we don't stray anywhere close to that again.

3 hours ago, Sphinx said:

The experiences of Eastern Europeans are a polar opposite to that of the West. Easterners experienced slavery first hand for centuries far longer than the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade, first under centuries of Tartar raids into the Kievan Rus, PLC, Muscovy and Hungary, and then with Ottoman forced conscription throughout the Balkans. Their own countries from Hungary, Serbia, Ukraine, Greece, etc etc were colonised by not just Muslims but by fellow Europeans who in many cases pursued policies to stamp out the native Eastern cultures. (Forced Germanisation of Poland, Russification, Venetian conquests of Greek and Croatian cities etc). Then throughout the 20th century, the people of Eastern Europe, from the Greece right upto Finland suffered some of the worse crimes in human history, with tens of millions of Slavs, Baltics, Greeks, Magyars, Romanians etc, killed in Communist uprisings, famines, civil wars, WW1, and the genocides inflicted by the Nazis and Soviets. 

Yeah, you're right about all that and that's why the word for slave comes from the word slav:

3 hours ago, Sphinx said:

Inst's point about experiences being different is 100% correct. For many Russians and Serbs they look fondly upon the USSR, Yugoslavia since despite the periods of democide it was during those state's existence when their ethnic group was the dominant one. For the USSR it was clearly an Eastern Slavic centralised state, and Soviet policies of resettlement brought hundreds of thousands of Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians into the Baltic states which its most likely if the USSR never collapsed countries like Estonia and Latvia would have their native populations in the minority. Communism for these people (Baltics) brought with it cultural oppression, genocide, forced deportation and many other disasters. When Westerners wonder why the East is so right wing or anti-Immigration, or "Traditionalist" their experiences of the 20th century will tell you why.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. While I understand why they might see Communism that way, I would still argue it's an erroneous perception because the nature of Communism is so widely different from the kind of politics the USSR actually practiced. At the same time, the USSR was supposed to be the main Communist political entity in the world, had the hammer and sickle on the flag, used a lot of Communist rhetoric to win people over and so on, so it's no wonder people kind of equated Communism to whatever the USSR did even though that wasn't the case at all.

3 hours ago, Sphinx said:

The Western 'Conservative', especially the American view of what Communism is I agree is completely wrong. I've got my own issues with American 'Conservatism', since despite considering myself being pretty far right in Australia, I'm left of the Democrats and guys like Bernie Sanders in many aspects. On a side note I think this tweet by PragerU, symbolises what's wrong with American 'Conservatism', which is clearly little more than Corporatism.

So basically you're a Peon for your corporate masters, according to those geniuses.

Kinda rambled on about politics a bit, and I've gotta write a History essay so I need to head off, but happy to chat more about this in DMs or here if you wish. 

Haha yeah, PragerU is basically just propaganda, paid for by the folks who don't want people to have access to free or more affordable education and healthcare and who don't want to pay for retirement, paid leave or vacations for workers because it means they'll make less money. Because you know, profits are what matter in this world, not people. Honestly, if one were to believe the opposite of everything presented in any given PragerU video, you'd probably be more right than if you just went along with whatever twisted narratives they're selling.

And hey, I have my own history essay to write. Mine's about the dissolution of Austria-Hungary. Would love to hear what yours is about sometime.

[Lu Xun]

@Sphinx

 

I'd correct you concerning the claim that Communism (excepting in the Ukraine) is taboo as Nazism is in Germany. Kazakhs, for instance, voted to keep the Soviet Union, and "Ostalgie" is a cultural phenomenon in East Germany. Sweeping notions of cultural norms are difficult in democratic countries as "dissidents" are usually kept around and entertained as an "opposition", instead of locked-up.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie

 

As to the general problem with socialism and similar notions, I'd pinpoint it as labor discipline. In a capitalist system, the threat of poverty and income inequality imposes harsh labor discipline on the workforce; if you don't work, you don't eat (excepting if you come from certain groups with inherited wealth). In socialist systems with strong safety nets, the incentive is much weaker.

 

On the other hand, the crucial problem with capitalism is that citizens / laborers suffer from "the tragedy of the commons". One example could be Indian industrialization, which in the previous decade, has suffered from an under-educated and malnourished workforce. An Indian peasant, moved to the factories, might not be able to read the instructions on operating factory machinery, resulting in injuries, damage to capital goods, and poor-quality production.

 

More tangential to the developed world would be the case of the United States. Primary and secondary education in America is generally seen as a mess, despite the United States having some of the best universities on the planet. To compensate, skilled immigrant labor is brought in from Europe and Asia, with the outcome being a brain-drain of talented labor in their home countries as well as the perpetuation of American competitiveness despite lax treatment of the proletariat due to, in Marxist terms, the "reserve army of labor". Healthcare is another American example where, due to the costs of medical treatment, people avoid preventative care, resulting in increased mortality and reduced productivity due to sick days and significant medical treatment.