Popular Post Lu Xun Posted October 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) Upvotes and downvotes are intended to prevent posters from making 1-liner "I support this!" and "you suck" replies, as well as encourage players to provide quality posting. Unfortunately, with the way the game is right now, I am wondering if upvotes and downvotes are now too politicized. For instance, Recognition of Hostilities threads end up getting downvoted to indicate that "WE WANT YOU DEAD!, an intent that has nothing to do with encouraging good posting or discouraging bad posting. One suggestion I have is simply to remove downvotes. Good posts that people like or agree with do deserve karma bonuses, but posts that people disagree with, in part because of their political affiliation, are no longer punished. This will, of course, encourage forum spam and bad posting, but on the other hand, I think people are now beginning to use the "Report Post" button more aggressively. I assume that by complaining about the karma system, I will get downvoted tremendously, but I've never been overly concerned about my karma record. === I'd also point out that on other forums I use, there's a "like" feature, but no "dislike" feature. I.e, bad posters are identified by low post/like ratios, but not negative Karma. IIRC, Facebook moved to a similar system, wherein you can now thumbs up posts but not thumbs down them. Reddit uses +- karma, but Reddit I'd argue is somewhat less prone to toxicity than PnW (two sides constantly battling here) and that moderators usually remove highly toxic posters. === One final factor I'd point out is that downvoting creates disincentives to be controversial. One side of the present political environment believes the other side has forums control. Every post they make tends to get downvoted, because they disagree with the other political side. Certain strong posters get downvoted very rarely, but posters who match the average of the other side tend to get aggressively downvoted despite having good reputations in other games. In order to have a good upvoting history, the following factors are crucial: -Don't spam -Make quality posts -Make posts that favor the political views of the most forum active members / members most inclined to downvote. The third criteria shouldn't be necessary; if you don't spam and make quality posts, you should have good karma histories no matter which side you're on. Edited October 8, 2019 by Inst 1 11 6 Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dryad Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) I do think a downvoting system strongly promotes toxic behaviour and it doesn't ever make anyone happy to get downvoted. It can have its uses though for example in game suggestions as a sort of voting system to see on a single glance how popular a suggestion is, so perhaps disabling it in only some categories makes sense. Then again we have also seen in the baseball thread that up and downvoting is heavily biased. Edited October 8, 2019 by Dryad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Epi Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 1 Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Xun Posted October 8, 2019 Author Share Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Epi said: This is biased and that's a good thing. I never read a post without checking it's upvotes and more specifically who gave what type of vote. The results would surprise you and generally tells me where someone stands within the narrative. On Discord, I've suggested invisible downvoting, i.e, you can see the downvotes, but they don't actually get counted in Karma. You'll still know how downvoted a poster is by their profile, but it doesn't show on the karma calculations. The problem is, we have some marginal posters. Some of them are like Noctis, who are sincerely bad posters and are negative for it. But say, if your Camelot noobs wanted to post on the forums, they'd get rapidly downvoted for it if they said something KERCHTOG$ didn't like, and they'd stop posting, contributing to KERCHTOG$ forum control. Nerfing downvoting encourages them to keep posting and keep the forums alive, as opposed to being "KERCHTOG$ coalition forums", although, while I do complain, it hasn't gotten so bad that KERCHTOG$ is now posting "I need a counter on this, or a tac-team to help me hit so and so" in Orbis Central. I'll point out that even if my downvotes get deleted, I'll still be sub 1:1 in terms of karma, and it'll mark me as a bad poster. I don't have pretensions to be an above-par poster, I know this on other boards, and I don't care. What I do care about is whether the current downvoting system is bad for the game. Edited October 8, 2019 by Inst Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Patrick Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 36 minutes ago, Inst said: On Discord, I've suggested invisible downvoting, i.e, you can see the downvotes, but they don't actually get counted in Karma. You'll still know how downvoted a poster is by their profile, but it doesn't show on the karma calculations. The problem is, we have some marginal posters. Some of them are like Noctis, who are sincerely bad posters and are negative for it. But say, if your Camelot noobs wanted to post on the forums, they'd get rapidly downvoted for it if they said something KERCHTOG$ didn't like, and they'd stop posting, contributing to KERCHTOG$ forum control. Nerfing downvoting encourages them to keep posting and keep the forums alive, as opposed to being "KERCHTOG$ coalition forums", although, while I do complain, it hasn't gotten so bad that KERCHTOG$ is now posting "I need a counter on this, or a tac-team to help me hit so and so" in Orbis Central. I'll point out that even if my downvotes get deleted, I'll still be sub 1:1 in terms of karma, and it'll mark me as a bad poster. I don't have pretensions to be an above-par poster, I know this on other boards, and I don't care. What I do care about is whether the current downvoting system is bad for the game. I mean it would be pretty dumb if they started posting counter requests and strategy sessions in a public forum but yeah I agree with you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Alex Posted October 9, 2019 Administrators Share Posted October 9, 2019 Upvotes/Downvotes/Karma don't do anything. It's all purely cosmetic, I don't think it really matter. If people's posts were getting hidden because of downvotes, I'd agree that something should change, but that's just not the case. Quote Is there a bug? Report It | Not understanding game mechanics? Ask About It | Got a good idea? Suggest ItForums Rules | Game Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dryad Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Alex said: Upvotes/Downvotes/Karma don't do anything. It's all purely cosmetic, I don't think it really matter. If people's posts were getting hidden because of downvotes, I'd agree that something should change, but that's just not the case. I strongly disagree. They may not have any material impact, but people are emotional and care about popularity, validation and all that other stuff. People have fought wars on the forums using up- and downvotes. You have mentioned before that you are concerned about toxicity in the community and I don't see how a downvoting option helps the case here. Downvotes give people the feeling they aren't welcome and can be very frustrating, people know this and mass downvote people they don't like while they mass upvote people they do like, that dynamic is very dividing i think. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Alex Posted October 9, 2019 Administrators Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Dryad said: I strongly disagree. They may not have any material impact, but people are emotional and care about popularity, validation and all that other stuff. People have fought wars on the forums using up- and downvotes. You have mentioned before that you are concerned about toxicity in the community and I don't see how a downvoting option helps the case here. Downvotes give people the feeling they aren't welcome and can be very frustrating, people know this and mass downvote people they don't like while they mass upvote people they do like, that dynamic is very dividing i think. I agree, I'd be fine with just disabling downvoting. I think I suggested that when upvotes/downvotes were added but was shot down. 2 1 Quote Is there a bug? Report It | Not understanding game mechanics? Ask About It | Got a good idea? Suggest ItForums Rules | Game Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Certain groups of players do seem to aggressively downvote players they are opposed to. It has tailed off a lot, but at the start of the war it was rampant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Xun Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 23 minutes ago, Alex said: I agree, I'd be fine with just disabling downvoting. I think I suggested that when upvotes/downvotes were added but was shot down. I'd also like to add to Dryad's point and reframe it. Downvotes currently serves as a method for users to censor the boards, by giving posters downvotes. However, we have a "Report Post" function already, and board censorship should rightly be the right of moderation and the administration. I want to note that I have posted this thread in public Discord and invited posters who would be negatively impacted by the nerfing or removal of the downvote system to speak their mind. So far, the only poster who has responded negatively against this is Pasky Darkfire, and he's not chosen to provide posts substantiating his refusal. I strongly encourage people who disagree with the scrapping or nerfing of the downvote system to post here and make their view known. Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevanovia Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) I don’t agree that downvotes are politicized. For instance, the people who have the most downvotes (from both sides of the coalitions) typically post the things that either make the least amount of sense to others/are seeking attention/are generally disrespected due to their own actions. Roquentin is the leader of the opposite coalition of me, but I would be willing to bet that I have upvoted more things than I have downvoted of his. I would bet that it is the case for a good portion of folks from both sides of the aisle. Edited October 9, 2019 by Kevanovia 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I don't think downvotes should be removed. It's not censorship. No one is stopping anyone from posting. It's a method of signaling disagreement and that shouldn't be removed from a game like this. There are situations it gets abused in but that doesn't mean the entire feature should be nixed. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Xun Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 39 minutes ago, Kevanovia said: I don’t agree that downvotes are politicized. For instance, the people who have the most downvotes (from both sides of the coalitions) typically post the things that either make the least amount of sense to others/are seeking attention/are generally disrespected due to their own actions. Roquentin is the leader of the opposite coalition of me, but I would be willing to bet that I have upvoted more things than I have downvoted of his. I would bet that it is the case for a good portion of folks from both sides of the aisle. Funny thing is, we can easily inject politics into this. In actually investigating your posting reputation record, I found that you had roughly this upvoting record vs Roquentin: Your claim is correct, i.e, roughly 6 upvotes or upvote equivalents vs 2 downvotes. However, your co-coalitionist Nizam Adrienne has stated that downvotes are means of signifying disagreement. A cursory look at Roquentin's downvotes and seeing that the vast majority of them are by political enemies shows that this assessment is more correct, and is representative of general use of downvotes. 51 minutes ago, Nizam Adrienne said: I don't think downvotes should be removed. It's not censorship. No one is stopping anyone from posting. It's a method of signaling disagreement and that shouldn't be removed from a game like this. There are situations it gets abused in but that doesn't mean the entire feature should be nixed. First, when you say that downvotes should not be removed, are you being polite? The literal meaning of what you've said states that you don't support removing downvotes, but that doesn't mean you oppose removing them either. You can be more specific as to what you mean, although the rest of the post is a defense of the downvote feature. As I'm very used to ambiguity, I trend to, but will not conclude, that you oppose removing downvotes. In practice, though, we both acknowledge that the game is split along two ideological spheres, no matter what the treaty web might indicate. Because downvotes function as a mechanism of signalling disagreement, the effective result is that downvotes end up functioning as an indication of a particular sphere's representation in the forums. This creates unwanted confusion; are downvotes generally indicative of, as Kevanovia argues, bad posting, or do they indicate that a particular sphere is better represented on a particular forum? The other concern is that for new users, downvotes are unspecific. For instance, a downvote for being Captain Vietnam (I'm not sure if you remember that individual, a troll from many years past) and a downvote for having a different political perspective than your side looks exactly the same. Requiring posters to actually voice their disagreement as opposed to simply clicking the red button lets new posters know why their posting is considered bad and how they might remedy it. If the disagreement is couched in the form of a flame, that's reportable, invalid, and removes an unwanted downvote. Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Inst said: Funny thing is, we can easily inject politics into this. In actually investigating your posting reputation record, I found that you had roughly this upvoting record vs Roquentin: Your claim is correct, i.e, roughly 6 upvotes or upvote equivalents vs 2 downvotes. However, your co-coalitionist Nizam Adrienne has stated that downvotes are means of signifying disagreement. A cursory look at Roquentin's downvotes and seeing that the vast majority of them are by political enemies shows that this assessment is more correct, and is representative of general use of downvotes. First, when you say that downvotes should not be removed, are you being polite? The literal meaning of what you've said states that you don't support removing downvotes, but that doesn't mean you oppose removing them either. You can be more specific as to what you mean, although the rest of the post is a defense of the downvote feature. As I'm very used to ambiguity, I trend to, but will not conclude, that you oppose removing downvotes. In practice, though, we both acknowledge that the game is split along two ideological spheres, no matter what the treaty web might indicate. Because downvotes function as a mechanism of signalling disagreement, the effective result is that downvotes end up functioning as an indication of a particular sphere's representation in the forums. This creates unwanted confusion; are downvotes generally indicative of, as Kevanovia argues, bad posting, or do they indicate that a particular sphere is better represented on a particular forum? The other concern is that for new users, downvotes are unspecific. For instance, a downvote for being Captain Vietnam (I'm not sure if you remember that individual, a troll from many years past) and a downvote for having a different political perspective than your side looks exactly the same. Requiring posters to actually voice their disagreement as opposed to simply clicking the red button lets new posters know why their posting is considered bad and how they might remedy it. If the disagreement is couched in the form of a flame, that's reportable, invalid, and removes an unwanted downvote. I downvoted posts that primarily had to do with statements against me, my alliance, or my allies, so it is safe to say I strongly disagreed with the statements being made rather than downvoting specifically along party lines or because I felt like it. We're at war and have drastically different IC perspectives. I've had the same treatment against me for statements I've made and I'm sure that will be supported by checking Roq or Keshav's downvotes against me. I've explained my position several times so your suggestion of just forcing people to explain doesn't suffice as a solution in my opinion either. If you were to check OOC posts and game suggestions however, you'd see a different picture on both sides. I am sympathetic to what you're trying to address. I've also been specifically targeted and harassed for non political reasons and faced mass downvoting by select individuals for OOC reasons that have nothing to do with the posts being downvoted. I still don't believe removing the entire downvote system is the right answer but if someone had a better suggestion that didn't eliminate the purpose of the downvote, which is to express disagreement and works well to that end, but also addressed the harassment some folks face, I might be more supportive. I don't have an easy answer for you on that one though. Edited October 9, 2019 by Nizam Adrienne 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 10 hours ago, Alex said: Upvotes/Downvotes/Karma don't do anything. It's all purely cosmetic, I don't think it really matter. If people's posts were getting hidden because of downvotes, I'd agree that something should change, but that's just not the case. Even though they're cosmetic you can't ignore they have a psychological impact on people. Reddit is the most famous example of this - the term "Karma Whore" exists for a reason. People will change their posting behavior to accrue positive feedback. Upvotes/likes/etc are just another positive feedback mechanism. I'd disable the entire Karma system tbh because it's turned the forums into a game unto itself. Everyone wants to post a witty comeback and get upvotes, people downvote their enemies and if you piss them off enough they'll seek out every post you've ever written, good or bad, and downvote it. Noctis is an example of this - everything he posts now comes with 6 or 7 downvotes regardless of its content. It discourages true discourse in my opinion and creates an avenue for lazy people to not need to reply. another example that would be good for at least removing downvotes: Micros post announcements and get downvoted... for being micros. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchy Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I don't see what the big deal is. Being downvoted won't kill you. If being downvoted dissuades you from speaking your mind, seems to me you lack the conviction to stand behind your post. Or you are wrong and can't take criticism. The karma system is pretty stupid to be fair. I only find upvotes/downvotes useful for guaging peoples opinions on specific posts. I don't see any value in having a scoreboard, but w/e. The better thing to do would be to add more types of reaction to posts if possible. That should clear up any confusion as to why people are downvoting you. Split up downvote into "Disagree", "Dumb", and "Who Cares" reactions. Change upvote to "Agree". "Funny", "Helpful" or something. Not sure why we have an upvote and a like button. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Thrax Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I don't see how this needs to be changed at all. Most of the arguments for removing downvotes apply for removing upvotes as well, really. And from a meta standpoint, it's pretty easy to tell when people are bandwagoning or downvoting simply because they are being goofs, and uhhh, who cares? Just let them, and think less of them for doing it. Doesn't need you to remove a feature. 1 Quote Slaughter the shits of the world. They poison the air you breathe. ~ William S. Burroughs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Xun Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said: Even though they're cosmetic you can't ignore they have a psychological impact on people. Reddit is the most famous example of this - the term "Karma Whore" exists for a reason. People will change their posting behavior to accrue positive feedback. Upvotes/likes/etc are just another positive feedback mechanism. I'd disable the entire Karma system tbh because it's turned the forums into a game unto itself. Everyone wants to post a witty comeback and get upvotes, people downvote their enemies and if you piss them off enough they'll seek out every post you've ever written, good or bad, and downvote it. Noctis is an example of this - everything he posts now comes with 6 or 7 downvotes regardless of its content. It discourages true discourse in my opinion and creates an avenue for lazy people to not need to reply. another example that would be good for at least removing downvotes: Micros post announcements and get downvoted... for being micros. That's a good point regarding the laziness of the downvote system. A forum is supposed to be about discussion, whereas if someone chooses to reply with a downvote, there's nothing to respond to, and it doesn't require any effort or risk on the part of the user outside of hitting their upvote / downvote limits. Put another way, if a post is unpopular with an ideological sphere, with a downvote system, what you see are 5-10 red marks. Without a downvote system, for the ideological sphere to make its presence felt, the posters actually have to make replies like "coward", "war dodger", "idiot", etc. These posts can be singled out for low post-quality verbally, or they can be rebutted in detail and addressed. And if they're insubstantial, it's a lot more obvious to see what's going on than it is with a downvote system. === As for removing the reputation system altogether, you make a good point, but the point is to encourage posting, not discourage posting. The game-like feature of collecting karma likes does drive posters to post, but the way the game has turned out is that there's a limited number of posters who dominate the discourse, get upvoted, and don't get downvoted for it. People who try to jam the game either end up joining the dominant discourse, promoting an echo chamber culture, or they get downvoted until they stop posting. As someone who works with new players, I'm familiar with players who make a few posts, get downvoted, and stop. I'm also familiar with players who focus on making non-offensive shitposts (which is not what the forum needs) to avoid getting downvoted and it's not good for the forums either. I think there are basically four options being discussed here. You have the most radical; which is to toss the reputation / karma system altogether. The option originally proposed in the OP was to remove the downvote system, and it seems to be something Alex has suggested and supported. A softer variation of this would be to establish downvoting as invisible to the reputation score, as I've suggested elsewhere, or to limit downvotes to certain boards. Then we have the option supported by some posters here which is to keep the downvote system as is. I think that in light of what the discussion on the upvote system has amounted to, I have to support Alex's original proposal of just removing downvotes as it's the simplest implementation and the one that is most easily adjusted. Edited October 9, 2019 by Inst Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) On 10/9/2019 at 8:53 AM, Sketchy said: The karma system is pretty stupid to be fair. I only find upvotes/downvotes useful for guaging peoples opinions on specific posts. I don't see any value in having a scoreboard, but w/e. Agreed. Remove it altogether. Edited October 10, 2019 by Vivec 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Xun Posted December 8, 2019 Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 "Mission Accomplished", but I didn't do anything even though I said I would. Any hate, any comments here? As mentioned before, we need revisions to spam rules to remove content-less "downvote-equivalents", but is there any fine-tuning that players would require? Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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