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Nerf Baseball Earnings


Alex
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I think some people just don't understand what punishment is. Punishment is different to everyone. What punishable to someone else may not seem punishable to you, so obviously those who don't get affected by the action of something that don't hurt them could say whatever they want. 

Besides, why should baseball players be the victims of this nerf post for the TIME they play the game just because the others can't be bothered to touch the game on it and sulk like a baby when they see others doing it but they can't be bothered to touch on the game? And people seem to ignore the fact that players already followed the protocols of baseball like rules and especially tips that they share. It's already a win-win situation where the earnings are done rightfully and fairly. 

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I am very poor nation.  My government, they come and take all my coal and all my money, leaving me with nothing.  They force me to rain cruelty upon nations I do not know.  Baseball is my solace, and is only way I can feed my family.  Please don't take my lifeblood from me, it is only way to survive.

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@Alex - Spamming money into the game via Baseball, Keno, or shootin' dice is a really bad idea. If players want to make more money, then they can raid, or work out their city builds to be more efficient, ie. infra, manufacturing or mining. The games were supposed to be something to kill time between turns in P&W, not a money spamming machine, right? Therefore, the games are being abused. End 'em all.

If people want to spam money into the game, then they can buy credits, and keep your P&W server(s) going! It's not a pay-to-win game, since anyone can still do the grind. And never mind the whining - they just don't want to lose the free ride they've been getting spamming games. The only ones complaining are the ones getting too much free dough clicking a mouse button.

The whiners need to remember that it's the Wallet Warriors that keep the game funded...like it or not.

NB!: Alex make no $$$$ = No Politics and War!

 

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1 hour ago, Akuryo said:

How is it a punishment to make this crappy time wasting minigane you care about more accessible to people who'd prefer not to spend 30+minute straight concentrating on the same screen clicking the same button?

 

If you're entire argument rests on the plank that some alliances (objectively false tho) somehow use baseball as a system to encourage their players to remain active and therefore this is undue advantage, I'd say you are in essence punishing them for doing something in this game more actively than others. Baseball is a feature that is open to all, and folks can spend how much time they want in it, as they wish. As is, the earnings/time ratio is not worth for some of us, doesn't mean it's the same for others. I still haven't found a logical argument against baseball that doesn't take overtly political tones, and just mechanical in nature. There are variety of means that makes money out of thin air in this game, like trading (arbitrage), loans, credits etc. If baseball is something you don't participate in, but others do, does not make it a problematic tool. 

The problem with the mechanic as is, the sunk costs folk have spent into it. By nerfing it, Alex is basically saying these folks and the time they've spent using a tool he had within this game, is "wrong" and they've made "too" much money after spending literal hours, is by far a stupid means to go about it. The sunk costs are there, baseball isn't op. It takes years and the sheet he put out is unfair since those folks have spent 4-5 years playing baseball religiously while others have done other things. To now turn up and claim that this is undue advantage, is unfair and specifically targeting a small/active portion of the game unnecessarily. 

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53 minutes ago, Sunara said:

I think some people just don't understand what punishment is. Punishment is different to everyone. What punishable to someone else may not seem punishable to you, so obviously those who don't get affected by the action of something that don't hurt them could say whatever they want. 

Besides, why should baseball players be the victims of this nerf post for the TIME they play the game just because the others can't be bothered to touch the game on it and sulk like a baby when they see others doing it but they can't be bothered to touch on the game? And people seem to ignore the fact that players already followed the protocols of baseball like rules and especially tips that they share. It's already a win-win situation where the earnings are done rightfully and fairly. 

I think what you don't understand is that there's a dictionary definition for this word and this doesn't fit it. It's like if somebody, going off a Keshav example as i play Oldschool RS too, asked for Runescape to be less grindy and less click intensive. Literally the opposite of punishing players.

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Guest PhantomThiefB
1 minute ago, Akuryo said:

I think what you don't understand is that there's a dictionary definition for this word and this doesn't fit it. It's like if somebody, going off a Keshav example as i play Oldschool RS too, asked for Runescape to be less grindy and less click intensive. Literally the opposite of punishing players.

No, that's still wrong. Which is why you play OSRS and not RS3. And why OSRS exists in the first place.?

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Baseball rewarding more activity is the main argument I’ve heard against, which is nonsensical. The amount these newer nations make on baseball is a drop in the bucket to the massive untouchable banks older players have due to faulty mechanics there.

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9 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

I think what you don't understand is that there's a dictionary definition for this word and this doesn't fit it. It's like if somebody, going off a Keshav example as i play Oldschool RS too, asked for Runescape to be less grindy and less click intensive. Literally the opposite of punishing players.

RS3 for lyf :P I just prefer the graphics haha. 

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12 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

No, that's still wrong. Which is why you play OSRS and not RS3. And why OSRS exists in the first place.?

I mean, no it's not. People dont play RS3 because it's bloated with hyper inflation and pay-to-win gimmicks, while OSRS cashes in on nostlagia and directs updates based on player opinions and voting while not devaluing older players by throwing free experience everywhere. 

A punishment would be them updating the game removing the best Runecrafting training, making an agonizing skill even worse. For baseball, that's cutting your profits by 90%. What i'm saying is more like if they put a bank next to the area, removing the need for runners, making it so that almost anyone can do it at maximum rates without being rich.

Think before you speak, it's not difficult. It's been swamped by now so i'll just leave it as reminder, someone way back in there suggested to limit games on a timer, 10 minutes as an example, but magnify the payout to compensate. Just like that, your minigame and the community you all apparently rave about so much became so much more accessible! Like magic. If that is a punishment to you, then you reveal your concerns to be less about the community, and more about the mass amounts of money being spawned in certain places.

EDIT: best part about that, people could do it WHILE playing EU4. So much better. Especially since you can then play EU4 with people while playing baseball with the same ones. Boom, there's your new community idea, that'll be $10. 

5 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

RS3 for lyf :P I just prefer the graphics haha. 

It is beautiful, sadly everything else about it sucks :P

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I am trying to understand the whole of this. So as always my post will be a bit weird since I did not ask @Yuno to do me Proof check <.<

 

- The majority of networth income depends in your Revenue that is Gross Income - (Gross Expenses + AA taxes) = Net Income. Right?

- You gain a considerable % of Cash when you Raid using Ground Troops, since Fighters destroy it. (as Far I've been learning). Right?

- There is some Trade offers that goes over the 25% advisable price, so there is chance to gain considerable amount of money from there with your own production and still having a nice Net Income or do a nice brokering. Am I Wrong?

 

I want to assume that the players that wins more then 500M, has been playing the game since it started, that is... from 2012? As far I've been seeing in guides, you need to spend 50M to 75M to max out the stadium, plus investing in your baseball team. (I quite do not understand YET how works the baseball team itself). So that is proly an amount of 150M invested, new players with 1 city at 1200 infra / 1500 Land, with beige colour , more less can be 150k gross income, and we need to do the expenses part to have around of 75k of net income (and I can be wrong... just shooting some numbers to the air) And while they are doing the tutorial, passing the filters to gain their place into an AA, they play baseball, that is two clicks + notifications or three clicks + Google Captcha (every 4 games). To gain initial y around $600.00 while they wait 2 hours to get the next turn and then get their revenue.

And everyone started by that (or that is what I want to assume), even one of the missions of the tutorial said that to gain money while you wait you should try baseball.

 

It is cool that people does not like Baseball, they focus more in the war part, and that is cool, but I believe that the big problem started with the main post @Alex unless there is a leaderboard where shows that table of cash won. The apple of discord was your data table. To be fair, I do not care at all if someone of NPO (to say a name that everyone knows) can win more than 500M based in the three clicks + Google Captcha (every 4 games). So for a moment I will supress Google Captcha from the equation.  doing three clicks (including Scrolling, Network or potato PC) 25 seconds, waiting for someone (if you are host) around 15 seconds to 1 minute so for one game + one second game waiting we are speaking of 1 minute 25 seconds, so It is their time spent in this game, I would like to know in an imaginary world, what is the income value that you or anyone here would give to a minute spent in game, with game cash. $100.000,00 as lowest (in my criteria because RL > games), so 1.25 minutes would be $141.666,67 game cash for spending 1.25 minutes in baseball. So if someone want to spent half day on PnW baseball (12 hours = 720 minutes) that would be $72.000.000,00
 

And this time approximation without counting the distractions of checking discord or facebook or youtube, changing the song on spotify, etc. At the end is the player time invested and the result is that, time invested. I know that suscribers is a topic here by the bonuses that it offers and that is openly said that it "feeds" you Alex, and I clearly understand and if I were capable to suscribe I would do it by the only fact that I would be aiding to the game get paid.  (As far I understand... I repeat, I did not ask to proof check so perhaps I am messing)

Now as solutions: We have the Baseball league, why not add (without take out Baseball) Football League too? It would of course cause a second post of Nerf Football Earnings, but while it happens people has now two secondary ways to gain ingame cash with their time spent. At the end NO-ONE should know how many got the other at all, you because dev, and else, but mortals and VIP mortals shud not know that.

 

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Guest PhantomThiefB
2 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

I mean, no it's not. People dont play RS3 because it's bloated with hyper inflation and pay-to-win gimmicks, while OSRS cashes in on nostlagia and directs updates based on player opinions and voting while not devaluing older players by throwing free experience everywhere. 

A punishment would be them updating the game removing the best Runecrafting training, making an agonizing skill even worse. For baseball, that's cutting your profits by 90%. What i'm saying is more like if they put a bank next to the area, removing the need for runners, making it so that almost anyone can do it at maximum rates without being rich.

Think before you speak, it's not difficult. It's been swamped by now so i'll just leave it as reminder, someone way back in there suggested to limit games on a timer, 10 minutes as an example, but magnify the payout to compensate. Just like that, your minigame and the community you all apparently rave about so much became so much more accessible! Like magic. If that is a punishment to you, then you reveal your concerns to be less about the community, and more about the mass amounts of money being spawned in certain places.

Okay the p2w is a fair point that I agree is a completely nonsensical norm in gaming now. Personally I was referring to the whole of the game being easier. They do x2 exp days now for the players, even if you don't p2w you can still get tons of exp scrolls, or just sit in the GE and wait for people to pop those new items that let you burn logs or make potions on for x time and x bonus experience. The p2w factor is actually on a smaller scale of the whole now. Even the clan citadel aspect is just a treasure trove of easy experience.

Yes removing that would make it agonizing worse but really it's RS players, they'll find a new way regardless. Which in contrast to this thread we've pointed out trading is an easier way of making more money at a much faster rate.

I don't mind any changes that would help make the baseball community larger and more interactive. But I still don't feel the profit margins are that game breaking. 

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Pretty sure the argument is that the majority of players shouldn't be competitively disadvantaged so heavily from being unable to no life on baseball. Pay to win credits are not a counter argument, they're an entirely different issue of their own. Trading and raiding are mechanics that cannot be removed because they make up the base game, baseball does not. Additionally, they're both competitive unlike baseball where everyone's a winner since money is created out of thin air and then distributed between each other as mutual earnings (tips). 

And just to point out, nerfs are not punishment, they're fixes to broken mechanics.

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18 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

I still haven't found a logical argument against baseball that doesn't take overtly political tones, and just mechanical in nature.

If baseball is seen as a source of income (which, given the amount and nature of the feedback, seems to be the case), there's no logical counter argument to the idea of increasing payout and having a cooldown between games. Assuming that the payout is the same (which is the idea), there's no sensible reason for which you would want to spend more time for the same payout when you could potentially spend less time for said same payout. More to the point, such a format would make it more appealing, and have more people playing it. Given that newfound friendships is a plus pointed out by a few people, having more people playing baseball would be a plus, don't you think?

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2 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

If baseball is seen as a source of income (which, given the amount and nature of the feedback, seems to be the case), there's no logical counter argument to the idea of increasing payout and having a cooldown between games. Assuming that the payout is the same (which is the idea), there's no sensible reason for which you would want to spend more time for the same payout when you could potentially spend less time for said same payout. More to the point, such a format would make it more appealing, and have more people playing it. Given that newfound friendships is a plus pointed out by a few people, having more people playing baseball would be a plus, don't you think?

As long as pay out can be the same & it’s functionality in allowing people to still get the same despite blockades except easier I’d like it. Although doubt it’d work out that way,

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tbh @GreatWhiteNorth the idea i mentioned is me compromising. I actually, personally, agree 100% with Alex. Infact, i think it would be worse for the game if more people did this. I'm going to use some math to explain why.

So, before the war i was 21 cities, 2200 infra with 100% commerce, maxed farms, farm project, etc.  Total gross income was around, 19m/day, resources included. City 22 costs 383m on Manifest Destiny. It would take me, on 0% taxes, roughly 20 days to self fund to City 22. 

But now this baseball thing is *really* blowing up, right? We got people doing it for the first time like Epi and George and getting 7+m in 15 minutes or less, it's like frickin Geico out there. 15 minutes can save ya 30% or more on time to your next city! Wait what?
Ah yes, here comes Akuryo. They went down to 7/11 for a double gulp refill, the headphones are on, Nightcore playlist running, a clock for 1 hour set, and the world watches in baited breath.

In that 1 hour, Akuryo gets distracted, gets only 5m or so per 15m. Doesn't matter, i just doubled my daily income. Akuryo proceeds to do this as a sort of daily ritual, slashing in half the time it takes them to buy city 22. Amazing news for Akuryo, that's record time!

But stop and have a think about that. First of all, 7m in 15 minutes is more than a city 15 with 2k commerce build makes in a day unless theyll resources on the market at price and not for cheap to allies. Here i am, well above the average city count for active players, and i can easily in a sitting or multiple completely outpace my own income. 

Baseball being a primary income for small nations? Sure, not so bad, but, this is easily a primary income for even a city 21. Hell, George and Epi were new, if i got good i could probably do more than 7m in 15 minutes and it could be a primary income for me at city 25, and the whales could shaves over a week, maybe 2 off getting their cities. With income levels like that, the bigger this gets, the more attention it gets, the worse for everyone in the long run. The game does not need to have DOUBLE the money flowing into it. 

The game does not need this minigame to suddenly become a meta requirement where either your IA department pushes for and organizes this with your econ to supercharge growth to stay relevant or you don't and you just fall behind with no real hope of catching up, increasing costs be damned. Cause when i'm 20+ cities and can fund my next one by the time the timer ends, it's rip the little ones. Little Timmy at 11 cities ain't never gonna catch me, he ain't even gonna get close. I'll be a whale by the time he can start gaining ground. 

You think this makes it easier to catch up? Nah. It makes it easy for the people ahead, to stay ahead, perpetually, by just spending 15 minutes a few times a day to ensure their standing. Bringing people together, that's good. Partially or even completely nullifying the entire point of exponential cost of cities to soft cap growth? Bad, very bad even.

If the primary draw is community, then the cut to income shouldn't matter. The abolition of it shouldn't matter. Replace income with some sort of fun little league competition thing and have fun with that. Maybe include a prize even, it won't be nearly as bad as this. If it's community that matters, then it'll be just fine.

 

Okay i'm done rambling now. My sincere apologies to anybody who actually read that. If you did though, please consider carefully the effects this has, on more than just your discord servers. 

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30 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

If baseball is seen as a source of income (which, given the amount and nature of the feedback, seems to be the case), there's no logical counter argument to the idea of increasing payout and having a cooldown between games. Assuming that the payout is the same (which is the idea), there's no sensible reason for which you would want to spend more time for the same payout when you could potentially spend less time for said same payout. More to the point, such a format would make it more appealing, and have more people playing it. Given that newfound friendships is a plus pointed out by a few people, having more people playing baseball would be a plus, don't you think?

I am all for increasing the payout, shortening the time etc, however you won't meet more people doing it this way as you will play less. 

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2 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

tbh @GreatWhiteNorth the idea i mentioned is me compromising. I actually, personally, agree 100% with Alex. Infact, i think it would be worse for the game if more people did this. I'm going to use some math to explain why.

So, before the war i was 21 cities, 2200 infra with 100% commerce, maxed farms, farm project, etc.  Total gross income was around, 19m/day, resources included. City 22 costs 383m on Manifest Destiny. It would take me, on 0% taxes, roughly 20 days to self fund to City 22. 

But now this baseball thing is *really* blowing up, right? We got people doing it for the first time like Epi and George and getting 7+m in 15 minutes or less, it's like frickin Geico out there. 15 minutes can save ya 30% or more on time to your next city! Wait what?
Ah yes, here comes Akuryo. They went down to 7/11 for a double gulp refill, the headphones are on, Nightcore playlist running, a clock for 1 hour set, and the world watches in baited breath.

In that 1 hour, Akuryo gets distracted, gets only 5m or so per 15m. Doesn't matter, i just doubled my daily income. Akuryo proceeds to do this as a sort of daily ritual, slashing in half the time it takes them to buy city 22. Amazing news for Akuryo, that's record time!

But stop and have a think about that. First of all, 7m in 15 minutes is more than a city 15 with 2k commerce build makes in a day unless theyll resources on the market at price and not for cheap to allies. Here i am, well above the average city count for active players, and i can easily in a sitting or multiple completely outpace my own income. 

Baseball being a primary income for small nations? Sure, not so bad, but, this is easily a primary income for even a city 21. Hell, George and Epi were new, if i got good i could probably do more than 7m in 15 minutes and it could be a primary income for me at city 25, and the whales could shaves over a week, maybe 2 off getting their cities. With income levels like that, the bigger this gets, the more attention it gets, the worse for everyone in the long run. The game does not need to have DOUBLE the money flowing into it. 

The game does not need this minigame to suddenly become a meta requirement where either your IA department pushes for and organizes this with your econ to supercharge growth to stay relevant or you don't and you just fall behind with no real hope of catching up, increasing costs be damned. Cause when i'm 20+ cities and can fund my next one by the time the timer ends, it's rip the little ones. Little Timmy at 11 cities ain't never gonna catch me, he ain't even gonna get close. I'll be a whale by the time he can start gaining ground. 

You think this makes it easier to catch up? Nah. It makes it easy for the people ahead, to stay ahead, perpetually, by just spending 15 minutes a few times a day to ensure their standing. Bringing people together, that's good. Partially or even completely nullifying the entire point of exponential cost of cities to soft cap growth? Bad, very bad even.

If the primary draw is community, then the cut to income shouldn't matter. The abolition of it shouldn't matter. Replace income with some sort of fun little league competition thing and have fun with that. Maybe include a prize even, it won't be nearly as bad as this. If it's community that matters, then it'll be just fine.

 

Okay i'm done rambling now. My sincere apologies to anybody who actually read that. If you did though, please consider carefully the effects this has, on more than just your discord servers. 

Go play the game for an hour and experience it.

You are looking at needing 1000 games per day for 20 days just to net $200million. That's if all the conditions are perfect. I.e maxed out team/stadium. someone to play for 2 hours with you every day at a good speed. the server not to be terrible etc

1 minute ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

To be honest, probably 90%+ of my games were with Cloaca, so...

and if that change goes ahead everyone will keep baseball in house rather than playing Nations outside their spheres. 

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13 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

The game does not need this minigame to suddenly become a meta requirement where either your IA department pushes for and organizes this with your econ to supercharge growth to stay relevant or you don't and you just fall behind with no real hope of catching up, increasing costs be damned. Cause when i'm 20+ cities and can fund my next one by the time the timer ends, it's rip the little ones. Little Timmy at 11 cities ain't never gonna catch me, he ain't even gonna get close. I'll be a whale by the time he can start gaining ground. 

Forgot his name, but you used to have a member who loved baseball. Invited me to a baseball server even though someone else had invited me the night before. Maybe you should just encourage your members or do it yourself rather than hate on it so much; if you think the money is even worth it.

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52 minutes ago, REAP3R said:

Pretty sure the argument is that the majority of players shouldn't be competitively disadvantaged so heavily from being unable to no life on baseball. Pay to win credits are not a counter argument, they're an entirely different issue of their own. Trading and raiding are mechanics that cannot be removed because they make up the base game, baseball does not. Additionally, they're both competitive unlike baseball where everyone's a winner since money is created out of thin air and then distributed between each other as mutual earnings (tips). 

And just to point out, nerfs are not punishment, they're fixes to broken mechanics.

Trading isn't a necessity. You can tax Nations and move resources produced around the alliance. You can absolutely remove trading, however that isn't something I'd ever support.

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2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

and if that change goes ahead everyone will keep baseball in house rather than playing Nations outside their spheres. 

They can, but there's also nothing keeping those nations from keeping stuff in house as is either way (other than for the tediousness of applying/removing embargoes). The cooldown would result in a rotation at least.

 
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3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Trading isn't a necessity. You can tax Nations and move resources produced around the alliance. You can absolutely remove trading, however that isn't something I'd ever support.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.

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34 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Go play the game for an hour and experience it.

You are looking at needing 1000 games per day for 20 days just to net $200million. That's if all the conditions are perfect. I.e maxed out team/stadium. someone to play for 2 hours with you every day at a good speed. the server not to be terrible etc

and if that change goes ahead everyone will keep baseball in house rather than playing Nations outside their spheres. 

You act likes that's impossible. Which, right now, maybe it is. Right up until those numbers George got suddenly become reliable with enough bodies playing, and with the benefit being that significant, why not.

I mean, as stated, it's already well known that NPO/GPWC/GOONS are running a huge league amongst themselves, and I'm sure somebody did the math when going about it. 

Early adopters are just that, early. ?

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1 minute ago, Akuryo said:

You act likes that's impossible. Which, right now, maybe it is. Right up until those numbers George got suddenly become reliable with enough bodies playing, and with the benefit being that significant, why not.

I mean, as stated, it's already well known that NPO/GPWC/GOONS are running a huge league amongst themselves, and I'm sure somebody did the math when going about it. 

Early adopters are just that, early. ?

More the merrier if people want to do it. 

It's not huge. Less than 10 NPOer's actually play for more than just blockade cash. That's like 2-3% of the whole alliance. 

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