[MULTIPLE] GOONS On Vacation

[Zei-Sakura Alsainn]

3 hours ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

No nazis here, just people roleplaying as Germanic nationalists with edited Third Reich imagery. 

I always find it odd why no one adopts Italian, Venetian, French or even English themes, it’s always Germanic nationalism from 1933 onwards. Not even Prussia gets a mention which would be a far better choice.

There's Prussias all over the place in this game. They're just usually noobs who don't stick around.

[Charles Bolivar]

8 hours ago, Big Brother said:

I'm not sure how you read Onion's post and still don't know why that is the case. That choice usually isn't a coincidence.

 

8 hours ago, ChloeJessica said:

yes because roleplaying as nazis is better than being nazis and i eagerly await you to explain exactly how that is the case

I apparently need to apply sarcasm tags for the more serious minded individuals around here.....

[Do Not Fear Jaz]

7 hours ago, Akuryo said:

There's Prussias all over the place in this game. They're just usually noobs who don't stick around.

I mean, at least they're honoring their namesake.

[Big Brother]

11 hours ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

I apparently need to apply sarcasm tags for the more serious minded individuals around here.....

Haha, I guess the sarcasm in your post was kind of drowned out by the high and very obvious level of sarcasm in Onion's post ?

[Raphael]

On 10/26/2019 at 9:27 AM, Charles the Tyrant said:

I always find it odd why no one adopts Italian, Venetian, French or even English themes, it’s always Germanic nationalism from 1933 onwards. Not even Prussia gets a mention which would be a far better choice.

Exactly. There's only one reason why anyone would actively "roleplay" as a 'German nationalist' and it's not because of their fondness for Frederick the Great.

 

[Do Not Fear Jaz]

5 hours ago, Vivec said:

Exactly. There's only one reason why anyone would actively "roleplay" as a 'German nationalist' and it's not because of their fondness for Frederick the Great.

 

Frederick the Great unironically owns.

[JT Jag]

Frederick the Great would have hated Hitler

if only because Hitler was a tactical buffoon

Edited October 27, 2019 by JT Jag

[Charles Bolivar]

12 hours ago, Vivec said:

Exactly. There's only one reason why anyone would actively "roleplay" as a 'German nationalist' and it's not because of their fondness for Frederick the Great.

 

I can't quite agree to be honest. I wouldn't have a problem if an alliance made a serious attempt to role play as Prussia and it wasn't some attempt to disguise Nazism behind a Prussian theme. Naturally it would fall upon the alliance to police its own theme since such an alliance is going to attract undesirables but that falls on them.

Heck, if someone did a Bavarian theme and roleplayed it as a bunch of beer drinking and lederhosen then that would be fine in my books.

But taking images used by the Nazis, editing them and then roleplaying as a unit of the Wehrmacht? That's going a bit too far.

There was a viking themed alliance a couple years ago that strayed a bit close to Germanic nationalism too with its usage of images and symbols. Then again , I wouldn't have an issue with a viking alliance that stayed clear of the nationalism themes and just basically roleplayed as a looting and fighting bunch of nations. So basically Arrgh in longboats instead of pirate galleons.

Basically, it's all context.

4 hours ago, JT Jag said:

Frederick the Great would have hated Hitler

if only because Hitler was a tactical buffoon

The Prussian aristocracy and prussian officer corp did hate Hitler and the Nazis and formed a majority of the plots against during the latter stages of the war.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Charles the Tyrant

[Azaghul]

On 10/16/2019 at 9:53 AM, Odin said:

One can find negative connotations everywhere if one wants. Great White North. Sounds like a Nazi plan as well. 

 

And some here are right, Afrika Korps is of course a product of the Third Reich, and some of our artworks are based on it. In that context AK could be conflicting with the "No Nazi related" names rule. But the Afrika Korps wasn't a political SS Unit, but a branch of the Army. See Wikipedia

That name isn't forbidden anywhere. We're not using a Swastika or any other forbidden symbol as well. Using here german laws, which are the hardest anti-nazi laws world wide. 

By the standard of treating the word "Afrika Korps" as a political name of the NSDAP, we can as well treat the word "Luftwaffe" the same. Both have their origin in the time between 1933 and 1945. Luftwaffe was re-used and is still the name of the current german air force. 

Let the tears in your eyes for a moment. Africa and Corps, those word combines can't be the reason some here are unable to sleep in peace right? If so, please DM me, and we can talk about it, even about a rename. We're very tolerant in that regard and will find a solution together.

 

I for one find the Mongol theme extremely offending. They offensively attacked the Knights Templar first, and no one complains about that, because... uh... 

Because it doesn't matter. As i wrote in the beginning. You can find everywhere offensive things if you want or if it's you hobby as Internet Warrior. 

 

And the child slave thing that Migraine wrote... It was stupid bullshit, written by 1 member of an alliance. Even tho it serves to enhance the bad reputation of an already super evil organisation, i'd prefer to treat people as individuums, no generalizing everyone

It seems like you're trying to both argue that:

1) The German army was separate from Nazism, and so the ban on Nazism doesn't apply.

2) People shouldn't get offended because [insert other people that did bad things]

The second argument is basically an argument against having Nazi imagery be against the rules and doesn't help convince anyone that the distinction between Nazism and the German Army is being made in good faith.  It's basically saying "Even if it's breaking the rules it shouldn't be a rule anyway".

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi

[Shadowthrone]

4 hours ago, Epi said:

NPO co-opted a communist/fascist appearance for role play reasons and god damn historical events 10 years on.

Wrong actually :3 The NPO originally picked the Roman Empire as its theme. Which is why for the most bit, the NPO's positions are Emperor/Senate/Praetorian Guard along with internal milcom positions named after Roman military units  

We definitely don't do communist/fascist appearances. Unless Warhammer40k is Fascist in nature and therefore our new rebrand in PW is fascist? 

[Charles Bolivar]

2 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

Wrong actually :3 The NPO originally picked the Roman Empire as its theme. Which is why for the most bit, the NPO's positions are Emperor/Senate/Praetorian Guard along with internal milcom positions named after Roman military units  

We definitely don't do communist/fascist appearances. Unless Warhammer40k is Fascist in nature and therefore our new rebrand in PW is fascist? 

 

Next time I see Vlad on steam, I will let him know that apparently he helped found a Roman themed alliance during the August Revolution ?

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Charles the Tyrant

[Shadowthrone]

1 hour ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

 

Next time I see Vlad on steam, I will let him know that apparently he helped found a Roman themed alliance during the August Revolution ?

 

 

Feel free  

[Roquentin]

There were some communist/fascist influences but it's really not consistent. The person who codified stuff was an RL trotskyist which is ironic for an ideology termed Francoism yeah but it didn't ultimately didn't translate into the official structure. The official theme has typically been roman centered though for NPO itself besides People's Republic of the Pacific, etc. A lot of the ideology is from Hobbes and Marx but it traditionally hasn't been emphasized in terms of the theme. 

One thing is a lot of imagery has been used from WWII like NPO flag instead of Soviet at Berlin yeah. 

These images aren't really reflective however of what people do IRL or believe in at all, however as most people aren't big fans of dictatorships and so on. No one is identifying as a Soviet Union supporter by being in NPO or a supporter of Francisco Franco(heaven forbid) and so on.  No one is saying  Stalin forever or whatever the hell.

I recall one time about 11 years ago someone asked a guy why he was in NPO and a "drone" and so on, and he said he has voting and freedom irl so he doesn't need to get the same stuff in a game when he can RP being part of the empire.

Also I've seen a few Venetian themes, but they don't take off or stay for long like Legions of Venice. Maybe it's because it lacks  a militaristic vibe? I dunno. What would be cool would be like an Inca theme or a Ethiopian or something more outside the box. Iroquiois Confederacy maybe?

Edited October 28, 2019 by Roquentin

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi

[Roquentin]

7 minutes ago, Epi said:

A Maori/Pacific alliance might be something interesting, they're enjoyable to play as in Civilization and have a very distinct culture. +Kiwi bias.

Yeah, the issue with German themes or anything tied to WWII is it's often a cloak for nazism. Like Iron Guard for instance passed the rules but it was a similar group with ethnic nationalism and anti-semitism at its core. It "it's too obscure for these kids to know about, so we're gonna get away with it."

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi

[Charles Bolivar]

6 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

Feel free  

Heh,  like you aren't totally wrong, you and Roq just weren't around back then when the old guard were in power and PnW NPO is the only place where you have been in NPO. You never had the pleasure of seeing forum debates involving Vlad and USBR

It doesn't help that NPO here is quite different from  the early CN NPO ( pre- Mary NPO) in a few key areas. You need to look at the context of Nation states and the role game mechanics had as to why Vlad and Francos Spain adopted Marxist language in the early stuff. 

Were a few Roman terms adopted? Sure, but the Roman influence was just one of many influences used much like Marxism and Leninism. Heck, the jackboot thing which everyone assumes to be a sign of the fascist influence only popped up a few months after CN NPO was founded sometime before or during GWI, Frawley might have a better memory as to that point since he joined NPO shortly after it was founded if I remember correctly. But the Marxist influence is pretty evident if you ever take a look at all the early stuff, the old guard were pretty well versed in it and its influence is quite noticeable. That being said,  NPO was founded as an autocratic military order with revolutionary themes and that was the main influence in that context. South American military dictatorships probably played a significant influence too in that regards I suppose.

As for the facism influence , it doesn't exist. Just stems from the Francoist tag mistakenly applied without people realising the game ideology was named after a person in NS and not the Spaniard. That said, I doubt much of Francoism's influence is  found in PnW's NPO anyway. Roqism sure but not Francoism ?

Edited October 28, 2019 by Charles the Tyrant

[Edward I]

17 minutes ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

Heh,  like you aren't totally wrong, you and Roq just weren't around back then when the old guard were in power and PnW NPO is the only place where you have been in NPO. You never had the pleasure of seeing forum debates involving Vlad and USBR

It doesn't help that NPO here is quite different from  the early CN NPO ( pre- Mary NPO) in a few key areas. You need to look at the context of Nation states and the role game mechanics had as to why Vlad and Francos Spain adopted Marxist language in the early stuff.

Early NS NPO stuff was pretty heavily influenced by Marxism, and especially by the early history of the Soviet Union. NPO was rebranded as the People's Republic of the Pacific for about a year, and there was another vaguely communist-themed rebrand a few years after that. I don't know when the second one was undone, but probably around the same time that Mary was effectively in charge of both CN and NS NPO.

17 minutes ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

Were a few Roman terms adopted? Sure, but the Roman influence was just one of many influences used much like Marxism and Leninism. Heck, the jackboot thing which everyone assumes to be a sign of the fascist influence only popped up a few months after CN NPO was founded sometime before or during GWI, Frawley might have a better memory as to that point since he joined NPO shortly after it was founded if I remember correctly. But the Marxist influence is pretty evident if you ever take a look at all the early stuff, the old guard were pretty well versed in it and its influence is quite noticeable. That being said,  NPO was founded as an autocratic military order with revolutionary themes and that was the main influence in that context. South American military dictatorships probably played a significant influence too in that regards I suppose.

The jackboot is from sometime in 2006 in CN. People tried making anti-NPO propaganda that referenced fascism (jackboots specifically), but it came off in the same way the "BK literally practices chattel slavery" bit did here, so NPO repurposed it as a joke. I'm unaware of any South American influences, and I'm pretty sure there weren't any because the South American dictators were pretty much all fascists, which wouldn't have gelled with the rest of the thematic influences. Roq's right on this one: Vlad ripped most of his "state of nature", "united sovereignty" stuff straight from Hobbes's Leviathan.

Early NS NPO was explicitly Roman-themed even if it was pretty obviously influenced by Marxist ideology, so both you and Keshav are basically right here. The reason why NPO isn't communism/Marxism themed here, though, is because we've never really incorporated that part of NPO's past. Our theme at the moment is Warhammer, but that choice was as much to avoid wholesale recycling of CN NPO titles as anything since we're not the same organization as CN NPO. The Francoist stuff was stretched to (and, in my opinion, past) the breaking point to be reused in CN, and largely because of that it was never really imported here. It had already fallen into disuse in CN, so it wasn't a hard break to make in any case. The only old school NPO ideology that came over was autocracy/meritocracy/collectivism = good, which is how we ended up with a 100/100 tax system well before anyone else.

17 minutes ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

As for the facism influence , it doesn't exist. Just stems from the Francoist tag mistakenly applied without people realising the game ideology was named after a person in NS and not the Spaniard. That said, I doubt much of Francoism's influence is  found in PnW's NPO anyway. Roqism sure but not Francoism ?

Francoism is to fascism as Marxism is to peanut butter.

[DivineCoffeeBinge]

10 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

We definitely don't do communist/fascist appearances. Unless Warhammer40k is Fascist in nature and therefore our new rebrand in PW is fascist? 

I mean 40K is pretty fash my dude

Sorry to be the one to break it to you

[Raphael]

21 hours ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

I can't quite agree to be honest. I wouldn't have a problem if an alliance made a serious attempt to role play as Prussia and it wasn't some attempt to disguise Nazism behind a Prussian theme. Naturally it would fall upon the alliance to police its own theme since such an alliance is going to attract undesirables but that falls on them.

Heck, if someone did a Bavarian theme and roleplayed it as a bunch of beer drinking and lederhosen then that would be fine in my books.

But taking images used by the Nazis, editing them and then roleplaying as a unit of the Wehrmacht? That's going a bit too far.

There was a viking themed alliance a couple years ago that strayed a bit close to Germanic nationalism too with its usage of images and symbols. Then again , I wouldn't have an issue with a viking alliance that stayed clear of the nationalism themes and just basically roleplayed as a looting and fighting bunch of nations. So basically Arrgh in longboats instead of pirate galleons.

Basically, it's all context.

The Prussian aristocracy and prussian officer corp did hate Hitler and the Nazis and formed a majority of the plots against during the latter stages of the war.

I don't know if I agree that Prussia can be counted as a "German nationalism" theme.

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi

[Artifex]

If my brain ever becomes so atrophied I can't tell the difference between people larping on the internet as bad guys for fun and people actually gulaging innocents in real life, just fecking pull the plug on my obviously pickled life support sucking brain.

 

Anti-fun get out. 

[Charles Bolivar]

8 hours ago, Edward I said:

Early NS NPO stuff was pretty heavily influenced by Marxism, and especially by the early history of the Soviet Union. NPO was rebranded as the People's Republic of the Pacific for about a year, and there was another vaguely communist-themed rebrand a few years after that. I don't know when the second one was undone, but probably around the same time that Mary was effectively in charge of both CN and NS NPO.

The jackboot is from sometime in 2006 in CN. People tried making anti-NPO propaganda that referenced fascism (jackboots specifically), but it came off in the same way the "BK literally practices chattel slavery" bit did here, so NPO repurposed it as a joke. I'm unaware of any South American influences, and I'm pretty sure there weren't any because the South American dictators were pretty much all fascists, which wouldn't have gelled with the rest of the thematic influences. Roq's right on this one: Vlad ripped most of his "state of nature", "united sovereignty" stuff straight from Hobbes's Leviathan.

Early NS NPO was explicitly Roman-themed even if it was pretty obviously influenced by Marxist ideology, so both you and Keshav are basically right here. The reason why NPO isn't communism/Marxism themed here, though, is because we've never really incorporated that part of NPO's past. Our theme at the moment is Warhammer, but that choice was as much to avoid wholesale recycling of CN NPO titles as anything since we're not the same organization as CN NPO. The Francoist stuff was stretched to (and, in my opinion, past) the breaking point to be reused in CN, and largely because of that it was never really imported here. It had already fallen into disuse in CN, so it wasn't a hard break to make in any case. The only old school NPO ideology that came over was autocracy/meritocracy/collectivism = good, which is how we ended up with a 100/100 tax system well before anyone else.

Francoism is to fascism as Marxism is to peanut butter.

Pretty much. 

Was under Mary that the first rebranding occurred. I was involved in  NPO's FA under Cortath, Mary and finally Brehon and Cortath was probably the last emperor to utilise Francoism to a large extent in comparison to these who followed him. You could probably make a case for the change starting during Moo's reign coupled with the change from the old war and alliance councils to the Imperial officer system I suppose in that regards. The Moldavi rebellion was somewhat symbolic in that sense showing the changing of the times and the subsequent founding of NSO which eventually ended up having quite a few of the old guard.

I do tend to disagree with the likes of Pinochet bring deemed fascist but that is a topic of grey area and considerable debate. Autocratic? Sure, with a dash of  totalitarianism I might add. Fascist though, I'm somewhat sceptical if it meets the criteria of fascism due to how the Chilean economy was managed.

Frawley might know better in that regards since I distinctly recall him using a Pinochet avatar for awhile ?

Edited October 29, 2019 by Charles the Tyrant

[Shadowthrone]

12 hours ago, Edward I said:

Early NS NPO stuff was pretty heavily influenced by Marxism, and especially by the early history of the Soviet Union. NPO was rebranded as the People's Republic of the Pacific for about a year, and there was another vaguely communist-themed rebrand a few years after that. I don't know when the second one was undone, but probably around the same time that Mary was effectively in charge of both CN and NS NPO.

 

Actually the PRP ended in 2008 I think. So it was Moo or towards the !@#$ end of his term iirc. My comment was more in line of Francoist thought itself borrowing heavily from Thomas Hobbes rather than any Communist ideologue. There was a strong Hobbesian influence on the political philosophy of the NPO rather than a Marxist bent towards all of Vlad's original essays. 

 

4 hours ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

Was under Mary that the first rebranding occurred. I was involved in  NPO's FA under Cortath, Mary and finally Brehon and Cortath was probably the last emperor to utilise Francoism to a large extent in comparison to these who followed him. You could probably make a case for the change starting during Moo's reign coupled with the change from the old war and alliance councils to the Imperial officer system I suppose in that regards. The Moldavi rebellion was somewhat symbolic in that sense showing the changing of the times and the subsequent founding of NSO which eventually ended up having quite a few of the old guard.

I mean Cortath was also the last of the NS imports iirc. Nevertheless, the prevailing thought of the NPO stemmed from a more Hobbesian view of philosophy, at least the CN import of the thought. Of course, the classist Userite essays borrowed heavily from Marxism, but the idea of userite vs feederites really had no role in CN. I mean old school NPO borrowed heavily from a bunch of philosophical/theoretical backgrounds and was quite eclectic in its original 2004-2006 philosophical essays  

Though it is fair that they did take heavily at an imagery level from the USSR and I think the original NPO forums had other associated imagery from the older Roman Empire in nature with regards to order and control. The NPO's always been associated with the supremacy of the Emperor along with meritocracy, which is paradoxical to the claims of Marxist thought tbh. But what has survived through the last decade and half has been a constant Roman themed Praetorian etc internally at least. I think the PG was Moo? (I could be mistaken) but there has been huge Roman influence in CN at least with regards to the positions/culture etc. 

I think the NPO imbibed a lot of the jokes as a part of its culture like the Jackboot or we eat babies thing, but that's more of an osmosis of silly anti-NPO propaganda that became sort of an internal joke. 

To be honest though, Politics and War would have been the ideal arena for Vlad and co. to really develop a coherent political philosophy, given the taxation system and the proper breeding ground of classist struggle, especially economically wise and the prevailing low tax/ individual "play" dogma. Too bad they missed the boat by a few years