Will t$ protect their protectorate?

[Roquentin]

Just now, Kastor said:

Roq, I've been a huge supporter of you, excluding IQ, and this has to be the worst spin/excuse I've ever seen. This is Thanos/Aragorn level.

I'm not sure what you'd expect.

 

Premise : tS doesn't want to be allied to NPO anymore and signed new allies under NPO's nose which undermined efforts to get the other side to surrender.

Premise: tS doesn't resolve situation where it's protectorate which is made up of people who were at war.

Premise: tS protects alliances that harbor people like DemonSpawn who sought to tank his own former bloc by withdrawing from the war because NPO bad man and then his alliance got attacked for going under the TKR umbrella and then escapes to Sanreizan. Sanreizan was hated by Covenant and only avoided getting hit like CC because of the tS protection. The tS protection was premised on it being a favor to CoS and would end post-war.  The favor to CoS aspect has a lot of problematic things in itself.

Conclusion: we don't have any reason to hold back.

1 minute ago, Sketchy said:

t$ entered the war on the 19th Roq. One day before NPO did. Not sure how TKR could have been planning to expand onto the NPO front on 17th when it didn't exist until the 20th.

Also who was this compromise about GOB/Guardian with? t$? A compromise instead of what, entering the war directly? Which you then did? And claimed you only did because TKR was planning to hit you?

Thanks for making my case for me I guess?

 

It was seen as an eventual attack based on the premise of us scheming against Chaos but being dealt with when convenient e.g. when BK was locked down. Hope that helps. It wasn't necessarily related to the GOB/Guardian front but it became clear that it was being used to buy time while GOB/Guardian considered the decs on them to be a joke.

The compromise was with tS since we thought the war could at least stalemated without us expanding. When the predictions of the logs started coming true and the BK/Cov was losing soundly, we could not afford not to act.

Nope.

[Cooper_]

11 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

When did I say otherwise? The week started like 17th/18th. We advocated for fighting more comprehensively since we didn't want to sit out and we knew that info. We did the GOB/Guardian only thing as a compromise without seeing how ironclad the dec would be in the wording as we didn't want to give something that could be worked around. The problem was that what the logs stated about TKR counting on tS to keep us out was coming true and BK was getting locked down and then Chaos would shift gears, and we knew it was anticipated citadel would drop out by the 27th, which would lead them to be able to swing stuff in our direction.

Irrelevant of what you are saying and how you are defending it , I just wanted to let you know that the events happening now are validation of what we've been saying all along.  Perception, PR, or whatever you like to call it matters a lot, and no one, not even NPO, is invincible to this.  Feel free to keep doing what you're doing and alienating everyone else, but it will only come back to bite you.  I say this with no malice or ill-intent rather just matter-of-factly because the impacts are clear.

8 minutes ago, Kastor said:

This is Thanos/Aragorn level.

You forgot Leo, hun.  

[Divinum]

54 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Okay, I got this and it'll be short.

The Syndicate made it clear they no longer considered NPO to be an ally when they didn't inform us of their decision to start a new sphere and move on from being allied to NPO. Utmos and Leopold pretty much felt justified in hiding their plans so that pretty much was the end of any notion of them treating us as an ally. Prior to this we had essentially been enabling a lot of sketchy actions by tS like harboring someone who ghosted CoS(itachi) going back to Enterprise and being made gov,  Sanreizan allowing DemonSpawn and Clan Callan who did not make a peace deal when they had engendered a lot of ill will as FR, protecting TEst despite Boyce being a high up person in coalition management prior to his leaving and not reaching any peace deal, and the list goes on. We can't really keep enabling people in the hopes they would be willing to reconcile post-war when they made it abundantly clear they were moving on and making something new without us. 

As I recall, there was a mechanism to terminate the treaty, and you didn't take it.

[Kastor]

1 minute ago, Roquentin said:

I'm not sure what you'd expect.

 

Premise : tS doesn't want to be allied to NPO anymore and signed new allies under NPO's nose which undermined efforts to get the other side to surrender.

Premise: tS doesn't resolve situation where it's protectorate which is made up of people who were at war.

Premise: tS protects alliances that harbor people like DemonSpawn who sought to tank his own former bloc by withdrawing from the war because NPO bad man and then his alliance got attacked for going under the TKR umbrella and then escapes to Sanreizan. Sanreizan was hated by Covenant and only avoided getting hit like CC because of the tS protection. The tS protection was premised on it being a favor to CoS and would end post-war.  The favor to CoS aspect has a lot of problematic things in itself.

Conclusion: we don't have any reason to hold back.

1. If tS didn't want to be allied to NPO anymore, or if you thought that, why did you keep the treaty? 2.) What is there to resolve? Either you're saying tS doesn't doesn't have autonomy to choose their own allies and must consult you(which is toxic behavior, at the least) or you agree with BK that your ally should be hit for choosing allies that BK disagrees with. Choose that answer wisely. 3.) So Demonspawn did what Demonspawn did, whether thats right or wrong is up for debate, but are you saying that NPO/BK are going to create a policy that people can't join alliances if you don't like them, and if they do, you have a right to roll them? 

 

There's so many things you said there that are problematic, even if tS wasn't the best ally......they're your ally. I'm not sure how this is, in anyway, okay to do. You've basically chosen your ex over your wife and act like its okay.

[Roquentin]

8 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

Irrelevant of what you are saying and how you are defending it , I just wanted to let you know that the events happening now are validation of what we've been saying all along.  Perception, PR, or whatever you like to call it matters a lot, and no one, not even NPO, is invincible to this.  Feel free to keep doing what you're doing and alienating everyone else, but it will only come back to bite you.  I say this with no malice or ill-intent rather just matter-of-factly because the impacts are clear.

You forgot Leo, hun.  

I mean we're not invincible but there's nothing else we could do. tS doesn't want to be allied to us anymore and expressed a hostile tone so we couldn't really enable them helping TEst. Until this point we essentially had acted as a shield for tS despite these issues in hopes we would be able to reconcile and expand the sphere.

4 minutes ago, Divinum said:

As I recall, there was a mechanism to terminate the treaty, and you didn't take it.

You chose to not share information and make new stuff without us and you didn't use the mechanism to do it. It's not on us to change the de facto to de jure when you're not being upfront.

We were humiliated when you pulled out without informing us and let kertchogg hit us en masse and we were humiliated when you pulled alliances out of our coalition to make a new sphere without informing us.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Roquentin

[Divinum]

2 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

You chose to not share information and make new stuff without us and you didn't use the mechanism to do it. It's not on us to change the de facto to de jure when you're not being upfront.

So whatever it is you say we were doing was both absolutely intolerable and not worth doing anything about?

[Itachi]

 

4 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

We were humiliated when you pulled out without informing us and let kertchogg hit us en masse and we were humiliated when you pulled alliances out of our coalition to make a new sphere. 

We were humiliated when you made us liars on the OWF, clear as day for all to see. But I suppose that's not relevant, though.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Itachi

[Guest Frawley]

Just now, Itachi said:

We were humiliated when you made us liars on the OWF, clear as day for all to see. But I suppose that's not relevant, though.

Well that is what happens when you say one thing to your allies, and another to the OWF.

[Roquentin]

18 minutes ago, Kastor said:

1. If tS didn't want to be allied to NPO anymore, or if you thought that, why did you keep the treaty? 2.) What is there to resolve? Either you're saying tS doesn't doesn't have autonomy to choose their own allies and must consult you(which is toxic behavior, at the least) or you agree with BK that your ally should be hit for choosing allies that BK disagrees with. Choose that answer wisely. 3.) So Demonspawn did what Demonspawn did, whether thats right or wrong is up for debate, but are you saying that NPO/BK are going to create a policy that people can't join alliances if you don't like them, and if they do, you have a right to roll them? 

 

There's so many things you said there that are problematic, even if tS wasn't the best ally......they're your ally. I'm not sure how this is, in anyway, okay to do. You've basically chosen your ex over your wife and act like its okay.

We only found out a few days prior and this situation flared up in that time. Until that point, we were hopeful that we could reconcile with the Syndicate. When the hostile tone was taken and the fact that tS charged in and escalated it.

They have to tell us they're planning to terminate the treaty if they're going to do new signings for a post-war FA plan that excludes us and undermines our bargaining position. The people who facilitated the peace even thought that tS had our blessing to do that when they did not consult. They didn't so it went both ways. The problem with what DemonSpawn is he betrayed his allies mid-war to harm us.  His allies who are not BK in Covenant had asked us for help. They were not rolled for choosing other allies but the betrayal and mid-war defection.

If your wife sees other people and doesn't tell you she's going to divorce you, then idk how it's your wife except in name only. We didn't choose our ex over our wife. We hit people who were part of the enabling of KERTCHOGG milcom escape route and  protectors of DemonSpawn. Our stance on DemonSpawn's actions has been clear for some time.

 

14 minutes ago, Itachi said:

 

We were humiliated when you made us liars on the OWF, clear as day for all to see. But I suppose that's not relevant, though.

I'm not sure why tS would be the liars when tS didn't expand. This is kind of the issue. You cared more about PR than anything else. Even at least one person within tS said only tS was bound per a strict reading of the post.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Roquentin

[Roquentin]

edit: doublepost didn't merge in.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Roquentin

[Sisyphus]

5 minutes ago, Frawley said:

Well that is what happens when you say one thing to your allies, and another to the OWF.

I was more than explicit about the rules in our conversation. 

Particularly, and explicitly about not expanding since at that point the only consensus we could agree on was targeting whale tier nations. 

I think the only possible way you could've gotten confused is by reading "We" to mean "The Syndicate" but there was a ton of contextual debate around the originally proposed rules to indicate that was a royal "We" that encompassed the sphere as a whole. 

Roq publically admitted he gave it tacit approval. It's pretty obvious at this point you guys were more interested in simply compelling us to be involved than operating in good faith. 

The only thing I changed on the fly was including the affiliation bit, to make it clear all of our sphere's alliances were allowed to hit Grumpy and Guard - because that's what we had planned. 

For further context we explicitly stated we were not interested expanding past Grumpy and Guardian unless we were attacked first. 

[Charles Bolivar]

25 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

I'm not sure what you'd expect.

 

Premise : tS doesn't want to be allied to NPO anymore and signed new allies under NPO's nose which undermined efforts to get the other side to surrender.

Premise: tS doesn't resolve situation where it's protectorate which is made up of people who were at war.

Premise: tS protects alliances that harbor people like DemonSpawn who sought to tank his own former bloc by withdrawing from the war because NPO bad man and then his alliance got attacked for going under the TKR umbrella and then escapes to Sanreizan. Sanreizan was hated by Covenant and only avoided getting hit like CC because of the tS protection. The tS protection was premised on it being a favor to CoS and would end post-war.  The favor to CoS aspect has a lot of problematic things in itself.

Conclusion: we don't have any reason to hold back.

 

Don't let fear hold you back.

[Sisyphus]

Also, to comment on Itachi's point, it was embarrassing but not the reason we've reacted the way we have. It has much more to do with being coerced, having vital information withheld from us, and clearly having some line of communication leaking directly to BK.

Roq having a meltdown about BK contacts never working with him again if NPO didn't save them before entering the war against TKR certainly didn't help comfort my suspicions. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Sisyphus

[Roquentin]

5 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

Also, to comment on Itachi's point, it was embarrassing but not the reason we've reacted the way we have. It has much more to do with being coerced, having vital information withheld from us, and clearly having some line of communication leaking directly to BK.

Roq having a meltdown about BK contacts never working with him again if NPO didn't save them before entering the war against TKR certainly didn't help comfort my suspicions. 

Okay so now where the "contacts in BK" line is from and who said it to Partisan which filmore then posted from Terminal Jest's chat. The leak accusation arising again when stuff we said seemed to get out is great.

I said if we were in the same situation where we were losing and needed help, that no one on the BK side would ever want to help us if we had the ability to avoid a catastrophic loss. It was pretty clear there was resentment and it would intensify if we were to not act when we had the ability to do so and rely on your contacts in Chaos instead and the most probable scenario was some of the elements of the BK side being used against N$O later down the line as people tend to go after those who profit from not fighting.

[Sketchy]

5 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

The compromise was with tS since we thought the war could at least stalemated without us expanding. When the predictions of the logs started coming true and the BK/Cov was losing soundly, we could not afford not to act.

Putting aside for the moment the fact you just admitted you only entered the war because BK was losing but you don't have a secret treaty (lol ok).

Your timeline still doesn't add up, in fact if this is true it makes it look even worse. You are claiming that on the 20th you thought the war could at least be stalemated, when you agreed to hit only GOB/Guardian. Then in 2-3 days you had changed your mind and decided to enter based on the argument that you had logs TKR was planning to expand onto you and breach said agreement. 

At the time you were saying the GOB/Guardian hit had nothing to with BK's war and now you are saying you wanted to enter the BK war all along.

[Roquentin]

15 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

I was more than explicit about the rules in our conversation. 

Particularly, and explicitly about not expanding since at that point the only consensus we could agree on was targeting whale tier nations. 

I think the only possible way you could've gotten confused is by reading "We" to mean "The Syndicate" but there was a ton of contextual debate around the originally proposed rules to indicate that was a royal "We" that encompassed the sphere as a whole. 

Roq publically admitted he gave it tacit approval. It's pretty obvious at this point you guys were more interested in simply compelling us to be involved than operating in good faith. 

The only thing I changed on the fly was including the affiliation bit, to make it clear all of our sphere's alliances were allowed to hit Grumpy and Guard - because that's what we had planned. 

For further context we explicitly stated we were not interested expanding past Grumpy and Guardian unless we were attacked first. 

You never stated it explicitly that if we ever expanded you would withdraw immediately and essentially give the greenlight for KERTCHOGG to hit us en masse.

It was an ambiguous aspect of the discussion but no one thought it would completely cripple us before it was posted.

We didn't really ever try to force tS' involvement. We wanted our own ability to get involved not to be limited.

I gave it tacit approval by going along with it without realizing how strict it would be lined out and no one saw the actual text which had no wiggle room or anything in your interpretation.

[Shadowthrone]

2 minutes ago, Sketchy said:

Your timeline still doesn't add up, in fact if this is true it makes it look even worse. You are claiming that on the 20th you thought the war could at least be stalemated, when you agreed to hit only GOB/Guardian. Then in 2-3 days you had changed your mind and decided to enter based on the argument that you had logs TKR was planning to expand onto you and breach said agreement. 

 

We didn't change our mind. We saw things play out in a way where it seemed counterproductive to not expand. So we did. I mean that's not really hard to understand. 

[alyster]

NPO throwing allies under the bus and you people are surprised? Why? It's NPO since 2006

[Roquentin]

1 minute ago, Sketchy said:

Putting aside for the moment the fact you just admitted you only entered the war because BK was losing but you don't have a secret treaty (lol ok).

Your timeline still doesn't add up, in fact if this is true it makes it look even worse. You are claiming that on the 20th you thought the war could at least be stalemated, when you agreed to hit only GOB/Guardian. Then in 2-3 days you had changed your mind and decided to enter based on the argument that you had logs TKR was planning to expand onto you and breach said agreement. 

At the time you were saying the GOB/Guardian hit had nothing to with BK's war and now you are saying you wanted to enter the BK war all along.

The hit itself didn't have anything to do with the war since it was a smaller version of the plan to do a limited war with KETOG. The GOB/Guardian front didn't impact the BK fronts which is why it wasn't related. We decided to actually expand rather than just bringing up the original plan like we had initially because we didn't think we'd have the numbers to beat KERTCHOGG on our own if the BK side of the war collapsed and then what the logs stated would come true. It was Bk's side on the backfoot from day one more or less and it wasn't turned around by the counters,  which we waited to see. Whenever we had  been asked by the BK side to enter prior to our actual entry, we had told them they could handle it on their own, but we only pulled the trigger when it had become crystal clear that they would not be able to stalemate on their own and  our ability to impact the outcome had decreased to its lowest possible level of viability.

[Sketchy]

Just now, Roquentin said:

The hit itself didn't have anything to do with the war since it was a smaller version of the plan to do a limited war with KETOG.

Hold on a minute.... so now your saying the logs were true and NPO was indeed planning to hit KETOG?

So the entire basis for the initial war that was leaked, which you spent so long trying to argue was false, is true?

And you wonder why your credibility is in question?

Jesus lmfao

[Buorhann]

It’s not questioned, his credibility is complete bullshit lol.

[Ayayay]

So, going back to the original question "Will TS protect their protectorate?" The answer is no because they're getting rolled into the dirt. 6 counters in 4 hours = RIP

[Shadowthrone]

27 minutes ago, Sketchy said:

Hold on a minute.... so now your saying the logs were true and NPO was indeed planning to hit KETOG?

 

NPO with BK no. 

 

27 minutes ago, Sketchy said:

So the entire basis for the initial war that was leaked, which you spent so long trying to argue was false, is true?

 

That leak is false insofar as trying to have BK/tC work with us. In fact BKsphere and its hit was unknown. What was in the works was a sphere v sphere war in the belief that'd be best to engender folks into the N$O idea, that got bottled with the whole fracas between Chaos/KETOGG and BK. My ideal summer would have been a set of independent wars without spheres needing to combine and watching BKsphere fall apart because of its own deadweight. 

Where things got testy and messy is when we were coopted into a war leak we didn't plan, but of which we were declared guilty. From which specific alliances decided to hold that against us, break apart BKsphere and swing around to knock us on our head. We stopped that from happening. 

This whole tS escalation by design is utterly amateur hour FA. tS wants to create its own sphere minus-NPO, it can. It simply didn't have to insert itself into the middle of this war, by attempting to actively interfere by offering alliances a safe harbour, to undermine our war-time coalition so blatantly. The fact that they used the NPO MDoAP as a shield from getting hit for their actions, while keeping us out of the loop and in general constantly putting NPO in the spot for its own actions, its gets untenable. If the coalitions want to go at each other, feel free, but tS isn't an innocent victim here, as much as played its cards too early, and gave folks they were building against, an easier out than necessary. 

If my choice is to enable tS who's actions are clear that their future does not include the NPO and our MDoAP is solely a shield, or continue enabling a coalition in the middle of a war to protect itself, are options I never thought I had to choose from, since its a clusterfrick. But here we are, an ally who seemed more interested in a post-war world screwing us over, rather wanting to remain neutral. Sucks really, N$O was interesting, not really a mistake, but just hard to deal with allies who have no common enemies or compromises to be made for whatever reason, after a change in government. 

 

Edit: In essence the tS-NPO relationship reminds me of 

Chuck and Blair from Gossip Girl! 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Shadowthrone

[Guest Frawley]

56 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

I was more than explicit about the rules in our conversation. 

Particularly, and explicitly about not expanding since at that point the only consensus we could agree on was targeting whale tier nations. 

I think the only possible way you could've gotten confused is by reading "We" to mean "The Syndicate" but there was a ton of contextual debate around the originally proposed rules to indicate that was a royal "We" that encompassed the sphere as a whole. 

Roq publically admitted he gave it tacit approval. It's pretty obvious at this point you guys were more interested in simply compelling us to be involved than operating in good faith. 

The only thing I changed on the fly was including the affiliation bit, to make it clear all of our sphere's alliances were allowed to hit Grumpy and Guard - because that's what we had planned. 

For further context we explicitly stated we were not interested expanding past Grumpy and Guardian unless we were attacked first. 

'The Plan' was to roll KETOG on a particular date; that was what was signed off by the N$O Sphere, this was independent in planning and in timing to any BK/TC sphere plans to Roll Chaos.  When Surf's up started, that changed things, unfortunately for KETOG/Chaos, they decided to assume that 'tentative BK Sphere plans' in old logs would clearly never be updated to take into account Surf's Up, and agreed to end the war and attack the BK/TC sphere.  The view of NPO-t$ was that two spheres coalesing to fight one sphere was a terrible idea and should warrant a response.

Unfortunately, by the time all this was happening, the only active person in t$ was you, and you changed the plan to your bullshit limited conflict scenario unilaterally.  The first we knew about the 'No Expansion' clause was us reading about it on the OWF, however we kept our mouths shut in public despite this.  Hell when I went direct to Leopold and asked him where it had come from, he stated, he left the post in your hands as he was busy.

You exited the war because you either pre-arranged to burn us (thinking we would lose the war), or your personal dislike of BK superceded the value you placed on your allies well being.  You knew we were coming in, your government knew we were coming in, we were never told you would leave the war, and the plan had always been to participate in a conflict.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Frawley

[Majima Goro]

I dont even.....

Guys, you understand that arguing here is just forcing your brain cells to suicide. 

NPO has already stated it is leaving N$0. Where will it go? BK ofc. Did they have a secret treaty with BK before? From their replies, yes. Will they admit it? Who cares? They now have CN behind them. Reality can be whatever they want.

 

Welcome to the world of hegemony you always wanted.