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If chaos drives, let suffering hold the wheel


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10 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Will still probably hit NP though, see if Rose wants to fight over that :P

It's adorable you think anyone in the world cares what you do.

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5 hours ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Will still probably hit NP though, see if Rose wants to fight over that :P

Rose doesn't need to intervene lol

NP has a track record of stomping smaller alliances (bigger than Kingsglaive for that matter) into oblivion.

It would be immensely entertaining to watch you try though, so good luck.

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17 hours ago, Windseeker said:

Rose doesn't need to intervene lol

NP has a track record of stomping smaller alliances (bigger than Kingsglaive for that matter) into oblivion.

It would be immensely entertaining to watch you try though, so good luck.

Already fighting Alexio's allaince & don't really feel like fighting Coal Mines & whoever else in that bloc. So w/e; Akuryo can use all his downvotes on me everyday for a month & it doesn't actually matter. Just shows how petty he is.

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On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

That was before IQ disbanded, and we all know IQ was easily the biggest threat. Irrelevant to the modern time.

 

Not really. If the logs are busy trying to get Sphinx to peel off alliances and still be paperless, the logs have a lot of relevance in the context of things. But those logs are more stating the context from which a variety of information required our action. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

This doesn’t make any sense. What does the “starting” mean here? Or did you mean stating? In which case this sounds like you’re running back to the “hurr masterplan hit NPO” line of logic, in which case you’re stupid. 

 

Seeing as you have zero access to the information, the name calling is uncalled for. We received information BK was the first, and the NPO is next up on the chopping block. We just decided to shorten the time for the aforementioned action, since we'd prefer to not be waiting to be hit when the information pointed in that direction. Especially if your side at the point were busy acting like it. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

I seem to recall that BK’s plan to roll KETOG and Chaos were released, leading to the peace/declaration on BK.

 

Your side claims to have proof of NPO's collusion. Still awaiting the release of said logs. If you don't have them or don't want to, feel free. We've explained the information we have, which is a lot more than what your side has done vis a vis NPO. 

 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

“It” being...? You’re being more vague than Leo, and that’s saying something considering I asked him to justify a claim with specific details and he gave me a 5 second response.

 

It being how we see the situation expanding and the rationales for our entrance. I mean at the end of the day a CB is a justification for a war. A reason for it. We believed the information and actions were leading in a certain direction, and the only counter we had to that was your side's word which meant little enough for us to believe it. We believed it was inevitable and the best solution was to ensure BKsphere wasn't beaten and split piecemeal. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

“It” being...? You’re being more vague than Leo, and that’s saying something considering I asked him to justify a claim with specific details and he gave me a 5 second response.

 

We've said it multiple times. I've explained the rationale of buffer zones/bulwarks as a necessity to ensure multiple spheres works. Its in a few wots and on radio shows. It's necessary to have multiple spheres without the ability to team up to effectively kill a sphere for this idea to work. That's how I view it working for any semblance of time. If your sphere and Chaos believed it was counter-productive to your interests, that's fine with me, it just ends the idea quicker and requires an equivalent reaction from the NPO to protect our security and interests. Similar to how you believe your security and interests must be protected. You really can't hate on us for acting with similar motivations to protect our own interests. Just funny to claim some sort of moral high ground when at the barebones level its similar actions. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

Relayed by who? When? Combined with the sentence before, it sounds like this was one of your goals **before** you declared, in which case you’re admitting that you declared to help BK/they’re extraction as well. It also admits that you were talking strategy with BK to fight the war **before** you declared, indicating that your declaration was planned out and not a knee-jerk reaction to the supposed “logs” you received.

 

Not really. But nice logical leap there. There's enough information, admitted by the people involved themselves to extract alliances from the war and backroom deals at play to ensure the core tC/BK are put down longer. We felt that was a threat to our own security. This isn't an admittance of talking strategy with BK, as much as doing our job, collecting information and looking at the information as objectively as possible and carry out threat assessments. I mean the TKR logs were what solidified our view of things. (Not the ones released, but the information we collected over the week of the war.) 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

Relayed by who? When? Combined with the sentence before, it sounds like this was one of your goals **before** you declared, in which case you’re admitting that you declared to help BK/they’re extraction as well. It also admits that you were talking strategy with BK to fight the war **before** you declared, indicating that your declaration was planned out and not a knee-jerk reaction to the supposed “logs” you received.

 

And you have to admit Rose and a set of leaders coming together, and the actions preceding it, followed by the information relayed could be a potential trap. If our entire future relied on Chaos/KETOGG promising to never work together again post war, you can see why it wasn't enough tbh. I prefer to not have to trust others to have our best interests at heart, unless we have a treaty with them. But this argument isn't contradictory to the bulwark one. Our interests aligned in this case, like yours did with Chaos, and so we both did what we did. The simple difference is, you're trying to claim a moral high ground, you do not deserve and we aren't. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

You need to elaborate this leap in logic, and the basis as well. Unless “continued on” means NPO declared, both sides would be happy (except BL, t$ would be). Coalition A is assured that NPO won’t interfere (if you remained limited) and t$ gets to whale and retain their reputation.

 

I mean I've spoken to folks in your coalition about this. But the narrative that could be spun was similar with TKR's limited hit on NB during AC, which was used to screw with them during KF. Limited fronts end up pissing off those who are allied to those limited fronts, and also the extended Coalition since it could harm their efforts. So if we're going in, it made sense if we're going to inevitably piss everyone off and give them a reason, to go expand rather than a limited front. tS wished to hit the whales and we supported it, but given how things were playing out, the situation changed for the NPO and therefore we moved forward with the expansion since our sovereign right to security was being threatened. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

So you’re saying that you declared because BK needed help. And may I remind you that unless you had relations with BK sphere, their destruction (or at least reduction into a mini sphere like the rest of us) would benefit you. I’d also remind you that BK literally deserved to get rolled, as their plot was revealed l. I seem to recall that being the precedent.

 

That assertion makes no sense to us. You can assert it to be true, but it does not make it true. BK's plot reveal was before Surfs Up. You have no logs post Surfs Up. As much as you require us to trust your word, the counter is you should have trusted BK's when they said that. Every alliance plots to roll someone or the other. In essence preemptive wars aren't an issue, and I take no issue with you hitting BK if you saw them as a threat. But that said action made your combined action a threat to the NPO and we acted. This does not necessarily imply we had relations with BK sphere which was more or less than our relations with KETOGG or Chaos or Rose. Mind you two out of three of those spheres asked for our aid in rolling BK and we denied. It just wasn't in our interests to combine to break apart a sphere and that start a cannibalisation race to add more power and end up creating bi-polar sides at that moment in time. 

I do not think any alliance necessarily deserves to get rolled. The only reason to roll anyone is if its in your best interest, for your own safety and security and achieve goals. But that doesn't happen in a vacuum and if there are other alliances on the board and their interests may not be in supporting that rolling, but opposing it, I'd weigh that in to my decision making process. Where you failed FA wise in conducting this war, is attempting to clam NPO's doubts, and rather ran a leaky OPSEC ship which gave us reasons to doubt your word. If you fail at doing your FA job, you can't blame us for acting with the information we've collected. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

What? I seem to recall our side being ok with t$s entry as long as it didn’t escalate into war with the rest of your sphere as well.

 

Not really. There are enough posts to the contrary and even your own coalition mates who were busy trying to expand to hit N$O for that action out of anger or whatever reason. That it got nipped in the bud then, does not mean it didn't engender reasons to be used down the road, and given that the different information we received inter-alia future hits, we realised that the limited war was untenable. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

2) You didn’t see the benefit in a victory of two mini spheres over a giant sphere? Didn’t you split from BK to make mini spheres? There’s no benefit to **entering** the war, as a staying neutral would have allowed you to build up your members while your competition all fought it out. And if your fear was Chaos/KETOG uniting permanently, let me remind you that we dislike each other, and that uniting with BK would actually increase that probability of a merge.

 

Here's where I believe your side is being disingenuous. Firstly, numbers don't matter when an effective counter with smaller numbers is offered. I consider KETOGG/Chaos to have some of the more competent militaries in the game, and activity in comparison to paper numbers. On paper arguments don't work for me, as much as consistent application of numbers. There was enough benefit to have us enter, even if you don't see it. I do not see sitting out beneficial, since that would be used in future rollings against N$O and future coalition building, that our Econ heft needs to be nerfed. So it made sense to not feed that mistaken narrative by entering a war at this moment. This sitting out policy works insofar as the marginal Econ benefit outweighs our entrance. In our assessment of things, it didn't. What made more sense was attempting to win this war, and that is what we chose to do. 

And no with your cohesion and combination, I did not believe you were independent mini-spheres but more or less a consolidated sphere who's word had no weight given none of you ever worked on building trust with us. I mean that's a two-way street but neither of us seemed particularly interested in playing nice with the other effectively so that gaping trust deficit played a huge role in our actions. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

1) You didn’t see the fracturing of a giant sphere to be an advantage? Wouldn’t that alleviate any pressure that said sphere would attack you?

 

With the consolidation of a premier sphere and by winning, and given the nature of FA of this game, where numbers drift to the seemingly all powerful sphere? If anything a combine Chaos/KETOGG victory only increased the pressure given you now have a consolidated pole, with a history of winning wars and seemingly in the ascendancy with the upper tier heft, adding mid-tier alliances who'd drift because of their complete dismantling of BKsphere's umbrella of mid-tier protection. If anything it seems a threat to the N$O as a whole, and picking up BKsphere remnants would have been even more difficult, given we just sat on our ass for a war, while everyone else was busy warring, engendering more hate to those who tried to win economically off other's losses. Every action has its own set of problems, this just seemed the worst of the lot, in comparison to entering the war. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

2) Wasn’t your sides official position that BK wasn’t getting curb stomped? In addition, did you really expect BK to be so incompetent that it couldn’t hold its own when it has more cities, members, and a military advantage?

 

No? I mean we've made it clear that we saw BKsphere as losing, and at the time given that information was out there (later confirmed) that there were folks looking to exit the war before a secure tier control was put into place by BK/GoG, made the situation heading towards a curb-stomp. It's not BK's incompetence, as much as the varied tiering and mistakes made by Coalition B, plus the peace and other information coming from everywhere, where it seemed that Coalition A was looking to dismantle BKsphere and ensure they are rolled effectively enough to be a no competition for the next war at least. That was unsuitable to us. Any such effective victory would weaken our own standing. 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

3) So you have a vested interest in BK’s side? Noted

 

We have a vested interest in every side, and the necessity of bulwarks. Welcome to your mini-sphere dogma. It's hard to believe it isn't it? 

On 9/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, CandyShi said:

4) Avoiding colluding with BK isn’t a moralistic stand, it would have solidifies your split with BK as a strong political move. If you had actually upheld t$’s declaration terms, nobody could doubt that you were trying to help BK with the whale attack. You’d have your whale damage and your stance would be solid.

You say that now, but I don't doubt it'd be used down the road anyway given the Econ argument, and the fact that folks would find that a threat. I mean given how peace terms played out and the final result played out, there might have been slightly different outcomes, but it just didn't seem beneficial to take that risk when you're side was already busy demonising NPO and seeing narratives forming that we saw as something that could be used down the road, given your own previous actions through the years. 

If seeing your consolidation as a threat, makes us evil, too bad. We just didn't trust you to magically end a winning partnership, or adding more numbers to "separate" spheres while seemingly maintaining close control of each other's actions through backroom deals. Its funny trying to claim the moral high ground, none of you deserve. We're all realists, and when all our decisions are taken from the security paradigm, its hard to try to claim a moral high ground. It'd help if you'd try less with logical leaps and accept our similar starting point of views on the situation. 

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Why are you still arguing with Keshav?  He's an idiot.

There's plenty of evidence and actions on our part that pretty much destroys any narrative of theirs that they're trying to spin.  They're just focusing on the whole "Orange man bad" because they need to keep their ties with BK, and leaving BK out to dry isn't in their interests (Despite the fact that BK put themselves in that situation).

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6 hours ago, Buorhann said:

Why are you still arguing with Keshav?  He's an idiot.

There's plenty of evidence and actions on our part that pretty much destroys any narrative of theirs that they're trying to spin.  They're just focusing on the whole "Orange man bad" because they need to keep their ties with BK, and leaving BK out to dry isn't in their interests (Despite the fact that BK put themselves in that situation).

orange man bad.

 

os9LcJK.gif

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Regardless of anything said after, I won't attack any alliances who don't surrender & remain committed to neutrality in the global war if not attacked first. There was one war on a member by a TGH nation, which was responded to with wars by that member. Although I've since let him know I don't even really consider us at war with TGH barring new wars from them, so he's peaced out those who accepted & I don't intend to escalate that.

Regardless of anything said by others trying to claim credit; I do consider Akuryo 100% responsible for being mass voted into the negative. Considering he started doing it way before anybody else & refused to tell me why; although still thinking about whether it matters and whether its worth doing anything about it. The bad karma between me and Akuryo is unlikely to go away now, although don't dislike everyone in the AA. So will need to think on it for a while.

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16 hours ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Regardless of anything said after, I won't attack any alliances who don't surrender & remain committed to neutrality in the global war if not attacked first. There was one war on a member by a TGH nation, which was responded to with wars by that member. Although I've since let him know I don't even really consider us at war with TGH barring new wars from them, so he's peaced out those who accepted & I don't intend to escalate that.

Regardless of anything said by others trying to claim credit; I do consider Akuryo 100% responsible for being mass voted into the negative. Considering he started doing it way before anybody else & refused to tell me why; although still thinking about whether it matters and whether its worth doing anything about it. The bad karma between me and Akuryo is unlikely to go away now, although don't dislike everyone in the AA. So will need to think on it for a while.

2t3cpz.png

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On 9/28/2019 at 9:35 PM, Akuryo said:

2t3cpz.png

Didn’t read any of that that, but think you may have caught my eye. Sure we’ll be seeing a lot of each other, nobody can really compare to all the love you’ve shown & I haven’t returned properly.?

 

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