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Elijah Mikaelson

Unfairly punished for hiding a bank

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@Alex

Could you please explain to me how am I punished for entering vacation mode with what belongs to me.

At the start of the war I moved the whole bank to the BK offshore as you can see in the screen shots below, within that time I also had my personal wealth from other banks I invested in moved to the offshore as well, during the war I spent a little over 5 billion getting people cities and such, everything I entered Vacation mode with was mine and belonged to no one else.

Can you please show me where Yakuza ever had 7 billion and sent it to any offshore bank, I spent my money and entered vacation mode.

Upon reviewing this can you please add back any resources or cash you had taken from my nation, as I did not violate any rules what so ever.

IT has gotten silly when people enter VM with what is there's are punished for doing so, I was not trying to hide a bank.

Bank one.jpg

Bank two.jpg

BK lies two.jpg

BK lies.jpg

Edited by Elijah Mikaelson
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9 hours ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

-snip-

 

Those screenshots make no sense what-so-ever, could elaborate what is what ?
Also there's alot of thing that doesn't seem right with ur nation, that growth and that cash&rss amount that fast.... 

X to doubt

Edited by MonkeyDLegend

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3 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

"Hiding tons of cash in VM is fine when we do it"

Hiding a bank is never right, however think about it IQ attacked me after i left my alliance and the war the cash and resources was/are mine they do not belong to the alliance so what would the problem be?

You must be very very poor if you think 330m is tons of cash LOL

2 hours ago, MonkeyDLegend said:

Those screenshots make no sense what-so-ever, could elaborate what is what ?
Also there's alot of thing that doesn't seem right with ur nation, that growth and that cash&rss amount that fast.... 

X to doubt

The first two was me sending cash and resources to BK's offshore banking that belonged to the alliance, the spreadsheets show what was withdrawn from the offshore during war, as you can see Yakuza never put in more than 850m but had taken out 5.55 billion during war as my personal funds was there. 

Well lucky for me it do not matter to you or anyone but me how I got my cash and resources, again if you felt I cheated do the right thing and report me, WHY is it just due to the fact you do not understand or can not work out how someone is well simply better than you at growth you label them a cheater, you remind me of those CS:GO players on youtube who rage when they lose and all they can do is blame the other person for cheating instead of just accepting the fact they are not as good as the person who killed them. 

But with the next people i link I bet you will say its cool the alliance boosted them, but me, you have to label a cheater. 

Zefer, leader of Rose 25 cities within 179 days of joining the game now 340 days old, that puts my growth to shame.
https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=137331

Dai Viet member of the medellin cartel, 27 cities within 308 days now 315 days old
https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=139918

IF you take the time to look you will find there are a lot of nations even some at city 30 who has played less time than me however never see you complain about them.

2 hours ago, ShadyAssassin said:

WTF! IQ shouldnt be the victims of BS moderation

I am not in IQ, no one should be a victim of people using moderation as a weapon

2 hours ago, Inst said:

Officially a bank theft.

Well if it was bank theft and the screenshots prove it was not, how can I be punished for hiding an alliance bank, once i stole it would it not then be mine therefore going in to VM would not be punishable? or we now saying entering VM with any resources or cash is now punishable if so that's a very slippy road, thought you was smarter Inst.

Edited by Elijah Mikaelson

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3 hours ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

no one should be a victim of people using moderation as a weapon

Rich coming from a guy who used it on GoB a few days ago.

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1 hour ago, ShadyAssassin said:

Rich coming from a guy who used it on GoB a few days ago.

Think you will find that was not me, however GoB did violate the rules and to report someone cheating is not using moderation as a weapon.

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4 hours ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

-snip-

Okay, so first off. I never stated it was cheating, but you and ur friends keep bringing that up which makes me very suspicious.

2nd, I know the story behind Zevfers growth, or part of it. How he got to city 15 idk, but after c15 iknow.
3rd: Dai Viet and Zevfer have nothing to do with ur loss. 
4th: No, those other nations have nothing to do with this and i don't wanna debate others.

5th: I asked you simply to clarify things up and prove me wrong in my suspicion and doubt, which you have done so partly. Which is a step forward...
But what's more interesting is that ur going into "i didn't cheat" mode right away, which brings me back to point 1.

6th: why don't you just use the time to explain the screenshots instead of making me doubt more. Having to debate this is meaningless, just explain things(screenshots) as good as you can.

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3 hours ago, MonkeyDLegend said:

Okay, so first off. I never stated it was cheating, but you and ur friends keep bringing that up which makes me very suspicious.

2nd, I know the story behind Zevfers growth, or part of it. How he got to city 15 idk, but after c15 iknow.
3rd: Dai Viet and Zevfer have nothing to do with ur loss. 
4th: No, those other nations have nothing to do with this and i don't wanna debate others.

5th: I asked you simply to clarify things up and prove me wrong in my suspicion and doubt, which you have done so partly. Which is a step forward...
But what's more interesting is that ur going into "i didn't cheat" mode right away, which brings me back to point 1.

6th: why don't you just use the time to explain the screenshots instead of making me doubt more. Having to debate this is meaningless, just explain things(screenshots) as good as you can.

1) When you are blamed for cheating as much as I have you end up always going on the defensive stance
2 & 3) Not saying they have anything to do with my lost, just pointing out I am not the only one who has "good" growth
4) That's fine, but when you claim my growth is suspicious then highlighting I am not the only one and its more common than you think highlight its not as shocking as it seems.
5) I got a loan at city 13 or 14 from Sphinx to get me to 20 cities, I owed him two billion and about a few weeks before it was due i spammed Keno giving up and i won 5 billion, improved my infra bought a city and invested my cash, i did win more on keno but the second you say you won on keno, it does not matter who support you people label you a cheater thanks to Lordpoo, even a few weeks ago when there was a huge topic about this and loads made the same claim of winning big.

6) I did explain them but shall do again, the screen shots of in game bank transactions show what was in Yakuza at the start of the war and what I placed within BK offshore bank, the other screen shots show what was in the offshore, and what we have withdrawn over the time of the war with there completely automated banking system that requires no human action confirmed by Aragon the leader of BK in pnw discord, As you can see from the BK offshore banking sheets We had withdrawn over 5.55 billion and loads of resources, during the war, As leader of the alliance I was my choice that I sold all the resources to myself  and put the cash in the bank to buy cities, after that everything that was in the offshore bank was mine, YES after i left I sent 550m, 250k of gas, munitions, 150k steel and 250k alum and 500k food to help them maintain the war effort if they see fit, also said if they need more i will help them.

Now Alex has removed,
Food 351,200,000 
Coal 1807.2 
Oil 81,213.6
Uranium 75,387.20
Lead 797.6
Bauxite 107,922.40
Gasoline 228,644.80
Munitions 694,480.80
Steel 160,800.00
Aluminum 561,983.20
And sent it to North Point Liberation Front Bank that is currently BK's offshore bank, lets just hope that its returned to Yakuza as if Alex sticks to stating I was hiding an alliance Bank then clearly it belongs to Yakuza, even tho IT all belonged to me it seems I do not have much say in this. 

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As you say if it was your cash and resources and you were funding Yakuza with it that technically makes you Yakuzas Bank and so withdrawing it all and running to VM is technically hiding an alliance bank through VM. I take it you never taxed Yakuza and that all repayments were agreed Nation to Nation and interest sorted that way?

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2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

As you say if it was your cash and resources and you were funding Yakuza with it that technically makes you Yakuzas Bank and so withdrawing it all and running to VM is technically hiding an alliance bank through VM. I take it you never taxed Yakuza and that all repayments were agreed Nation to Nation and interest sorted that way?

I did not think of it that way, however the second I left Yakuza I would no longer be there bank, as if it remained I would always be there bank i would never be able to VM.

The agreement on how we did things is between myself and Yakuza, they all agreed to the plan however when I left all debt was forgiven, yes would be seen as a dick move as i left them with nothing and upon leaving I sent them a gift a care package so they could keep fighting, but at no time did I see me entering VM as anything more than me entering VM after BK begged people to attack me. the resources on my nation was mine and Yakuza also stated they was mine and therefore would not be hiding an alliance bank, just my own resources?

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It looks extremely suspicious and so it could easily be interpreted as cheating because you went into VM mode after taking your money back.

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You hid over a billion in VM, you know damn well that's against the rules no matter whose cash it is or where it came from.

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https://politicsandwar.com/alliance/id=6033 is an alliance, they have a bank.

You received an enormous amount of funds from the Alliance Bank, then went into Vacation Mode.

Per the Game Rules:

Quote

Hiding Alliance Banks

Using Vacation Mode as a way to protect an alliance bank from being raided is against the rules. If you are caught doing so, the bank will be promptly returned, with 20% of the contents deleted. If you suspect this is happening, please PM Alex in-game and he will investigate.

Using a brand new nation (less than 14 days old) to protect an alliance bank using their starting protection time (from new war declarations) is also against the rules. If you are caught doing so, the bank will be promptly returned, with 20% of the contents deleted. If you suspect this is happening, please PM Alex in-game and he will investigate.

 

It seems to be that by being in Vacation Mode, you were protecting the alliance bank contents from being raided. You spent a lot of (mostly the money) and sent some of the funds to a different bank, so I calculated what was effectively being protected from raiding via Vacation Mode, deleted 20%, and returned the other 80% per the Game Rules.

 

It seems like a pretty open-and-shut violation and subsequent punishment to me.

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37 minutes ago, Alex said:

https://politicsandwar.com/alliance/id=6033 is an alliance, they have a bank.

You received an enormous amount of funds from the Alliance Bank, then went into Vacation Mode.

Per the Game Rules:

 

It seems to be that by being in Vacation Mode, you were protecting the alliance bank contents from being raided. You spent a lot of (mostly the money) and sent some of the funds to a different bank, so I calculated what was effectively being protected from raiding via Vacation Mode, deleted 20%, and returned the other 80% per the Game Rules.

 

It seems like a pretty open-and-shut violation and subsequent punishment to me.

After our chat via messages in game I understand how you see it that way, as you said ownership of the funds does not matter in anyway, all that matters is I pulled them from an alliance bank and went in to vacation mode, even went on to say that once i put my cash/rss in a bank i lose all control of said cash/rss, however if i pull them from an alliance bank they remain an alliance bank even if on a nation therefore punishable if entering VM.

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1 hour ago, Alex said:

https://politicsandwar.com/alliance/id=6033 is an alliance, they have a bank.

You received an enormous amount of funds from the Alliance Bank, then went into Vacation Mode.

Per the Game Rules:

 

It seems to be that by being in Vacation Mode, you were protecting the alliance bank contents from being raided. You spent a lot of (mostly the money) and sent some of the funds to a different bank, so I calculated what was effectively being protected from raiding via Vacation Mode, deleted 20%, and returned the other 80% per the Game Rules.

 

It seems like a pretty open-and-shut violation and subsequent punishment to me.

It's not impossible for single players to have such immense holdings, although it's improbable and there's quite a plethora of doubters with regards to EM / Moonshadow.

Put another way, if a single player decided to liquidate their bank holdings and investments across multiple alliances, then put it into their nation and go into VM, would it be a violation against using VM to hide alliance banks? There's incentive to do so, definitely, as there's no guarantee that if you go into long-term VM, that the deposit banks you contracted with will still be there when you come back.

Edited by Inst
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It is a grey area for me. Personally if repayments on the investment were made via trade offers etc then you could easily seperate that from the bank. Whereas if you use the alliance tax system to put cash in the alliance bank as a method of repayment, I personally think that is then classed as the alliance bank and if you took that cash and VMd it would be in violation of the rules. 

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You obviously need better rules and better moderation if that's how that rule works, holy shit.

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5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

It is a grey area for me. Personally if repayments on the investment were made via trade offers etc then you could easily seperate that from the bank. Whereas if you use the alliance tax system to put cash in the alliance bank as a method of repayment, I personally think that is then classed as the alliance bank and if you took that cash and VMd it would be in violation of the rules. 

I see your point, however the 7 billion i had taken from the offshore, came from a bank i invested in never came from Yakuza, I invested in this bank about 9 months ago and due to this war was pulling out all funds from all banks. so how would that be seen as an alliance bank?

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16 hours ago, Akuryo said:

You obviously need better rules and better moderation if that's how that rule works, holy shit.

Nah, lets just remove bank looting mechanics from the game, it's such a headache

/s

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9 hours ago, Theodosius said:

Nah, lets just remove bank looting mechanics from the game, it's such a headache

/s

Or we could  make banks impossible to hold and prevent cash from being transferred out of banks under attack. Alternately, let banks loot yield be set at time of declare, with the loot being traced across and removed from the most recent cash transfers.

Edited by Inst

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