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Baseball Bot Usage


Benfro
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https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=132570

Ruler Name: Birdonwheels5

Nature of Violation: Artificial play of baseball games to increase cashflow (see 50+ times per minute)

See history here: https://politicsandwar.com/obl/history/team/id=39023

Just some example screenshots:

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Screen-Shot-2019-09-03-at-9-54-49-PM.jpg

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17 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

At this stage in the game, the baseball thing really should be capped at X number of games per day. We'll inevitably get people coming in here arguing that he's just really active and others claiming he's botting.

Just cap it and then if people want to bot an extra 200k a day or something then go for it.

 

It's also worth posting that stuff like this contributes to server lag when it's not even a main feature of the game.

Speak for yourself personally however I'd say the vast majority of my time spent playing Politics and War is playing Baseball. So while not a main feature for you, it is for others. Server lag from baseball is also not a thing. Ultimately the issue here is that you can't be bothered spending hours clicking the mouse button and hitting F5 and so you want to stop other people getting an advantage. If you played for just 10 minutes you'd also realise that you will get plenty of captchas which are there to stop botting. 

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It is well known that some players have baseball partly automated, i'm not pointing out who they are but they exist. People use auto-refresher browser-extensions to automate baseball partly and whenever a captcha comes up they solve them by hand. The captchas look like this most of the time:

66d6df5c496e9d720f70f2fe601550d5.png

its great that captchas exist but if they appear once a minute and all you have to do is click the button once then perhaps its kinda worth it partly automating this. The actually obnoxious picture solving captchas simply dont appear often enough to make botting unattractive. I absolutely dislike the idea of taking a part of the game away that people enjoy, but there needs to be some realization on Alex' part that people make absolute fortunes with something that with a realistic chance is tool assisted. And to be clear i'm not saying that every active baseball player is botting, but to think that nobody at all does it seems a bit naive.

This is to a large extent also a matter of balancing the game. You are absolutely correct when you say that it is actually becoming a main part of the game. In the current war people have lost most of their revenue and during all of this baseball players make hundreds of millions a week, funding their war efforts against their broke opponents who for the most part arent motivated to play baseball for hours themself, and it has an actual impact on the war. There is clearly a balancing issue at hand when people make 200m a week with this while others earn 1m a day by revenue during war time.

I think capping the amount of games you can play is a pretty fair proposal.

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19 hours ago, Benfro said:

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=132570

Ruler Name: Birdonwheels5

Nature of Violation: Artificial play of baseball games to increase cashflow (see 50+ times per minute)

a832153e86c0368eb558f85cb8df05e8.png

 

Get a mouse like this and you can do 50+ a min easy no need to F5.

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4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Speak for yourself personally however I'd say the vast majority of my time spent playing Politics and War is playing Baseball. So while not a main feature for you, it is for others. Server lag from baseball is also not a thing. Ultimately the issue here is that you can't be bothered spending hours clicking the mouse button and hitting F5 and so you want to stop other people getting an advantage. If you played for just 10 minutes you'd also realise that you will get plenty of captchas which are there to stop botting. 

Ok then remove the monetary gain from playing baseball. It's really a simple fix. It's a nationsim, not a baseball sim. This is me suggesting something that would personally lose me out money as I fully upgraded my baseball stuff and play very often.

Edited by Bartholomew Roberts
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3 hours ago, Dryad said:

It is well known that some players have baseball partly automated, i'm not pointing out who they are but they exist. People use auto-refresher browser-extensions to automate baseball partly and whenever a captcha comes up they solve them by hand. The captchas look like this most of the time:

66d6df5c496e9d720f70f2fe601550d5.png

its great that captchas exist but if they appear once a minute and all you have to do is click the button once then perhaps its kinda worth it partly automating this. The actually obnoxious picture solving captchas simply dont appear often enough to make botting unattractive. I absolutely dislike the idea of taking a part of the game away that people enjoy, but there needs to be some realization on Alex' part that people make absolute fortunes with something that with a realistic chance is tool assisted. And to be clear i'm not saying that every active baseball player is botting, but to think that nobody at all does it seems a bit naive.

This is to a large extent also a matter of balancing the game. You are absolutely correct when you say that it is actually becoming a main part of the game. In the current war people have lost most of their revenue and during all of this baseball players make hundreds of millions a week, funding their war efforts against their broke opponents who for the most part arent motivated to play baseball for hours themself, and it has an actual impact on the war. There is clearly a balancing issue at hand when people make 200m a week with this while others earn 1m a day by revenue during war time.

I think capping the amount of games you can play is a pretty fair proposal.

So your line of thinking is punish the majority for the minority and essentially remove one way of playing the game? People are investing a lot of effort to make money via baseball. If they are willing to waste hours upon hours on it, then fair play to them. Again it boils down to the fact that you can't be bothered to invest the same amount of time in to it, so you want others to suffer due to your own laziness. Let's cap Keno, infra, cities, military, the amount of daily clicks, cap logins, cap everything until we are all the exact same where no one can take advantage via their activity......

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4 minutes ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

Ok then remove the monetary gain from playing baseball. It's really a simple fix. It's a nationsim, not a baseball sim. This is me suggesting something that would personally lose me out money as I fully upgraded my baseball stuff and play very often.

People play baseball to make money. You need better reasons to nerf baseball than allegations of people botting that you can't prove, and it's a way to make money. People use bots for all sorts of things in this game. War notifications etc. People make money from trading, from infra etc. It's really no different than doing it another way. It is simply people using their activity in a meaningful way. Removing monetary gain from baseball is akin to saying you can only sell and buy resources on the Market for a set price and non-profit I.e Steel is 1000 to buy and 1000 to sell. 

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2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So your line of thinking is punish the majority for the minority and essentially remove one way of playing the game? People are investing a lot of effort to make money via baseball. If they are willing to waste hours upon hours on it, then fair play to them. Again it boils down to the fact that you can't be bothered to invest the same amount of time in to it, so you want others to suffer due to your own laziness. Let's cap Keno, infra, cities, military, the amount of daily clicks, cap logins, cap everything until we are all the exact same where no one can take advantage via their activity......

I have stated that i'm not a fan of removing an aspect of the game that people enjoy and yet there is a balancing issue at hand that needs to be solved. Do you think that people should be earning 30 times the amount that others earn by revenue because they are willing to press 2 buttons for hours a day? I think the argument that "you are just being lazy its your own fault" is very much flawed. I don't want people to suffer, but I also don't want to press 2 buttons all day and at the same time I certainly dont want a major disadvantage because of this, and imo this is absolutely a fair point of view.

Imagine for instance that baseball is giving 10 times the amount of money it currently does. Is there a problem or isnt there? I don't think "you are lazy" is an argument that states this cant be balanced in a more fair way. If the current amount of money it gives is better than 10 times that amount, then how do you argue that there is no amount that is more fair than the current.

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No please :(

one of my friends  who's new to P&W (and is intimidated by the wars aspect of the game)  plays Baseball ALL day, she plays like 3000 games a day, because she wants to make cities and infrastructure. She hates war and does NOT want to loot/raid nations so she doesn't build a Military, and probably never will (Peaceful nation). (*Unless* for self defense, but even then, she's reluctant.)  Baseball is her only source of income :( Without her baseball job, she wouldn't have gotten to 9 cities (and hopefully 20+ cities in the future) -- also all her clicks are REAL. All my clicks take time too, I multitask/read tons of stories/movies when doing baseball. (I can link her nation but I'm not going to in this forum.)

Also, Dryard. Why don't you report the person in question  if you have evidence that they're using a tool. Who are you talking about? 

Edited by Yuno
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30 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

People play baseball to make money. You need better reasons to nerf baseball than allegations of people botting that you can't prove, and it's a way to make money. People use bots for all sorts of things in this game. War notifications etc. People make money from trading, from infra etc. It's really no different than doing it another way. It is simply people using their activity in a meaningful way. Removing monetary gain from baseball is akin to saying you can only sell and buy resources on the Market for a set price and non-profit I.e Steel is 1000 to buy and 1000 to sell. 

I feel like you're approaching this from "battle mode" like we're in the IC section. Chillax breh.

 

I'm not arguing about a "nerf" or accusing anyone of anything. I'm simply presenting a solution to close an unreasonable loophole that people utilize to make extra cash.

 

My point is that this topic has come up, been argued over, and been controversial for years. It's time to close the book on the issue. I don't want to kill your fun so keep playing baseball all day long. Just take the in-game impact away from a feature that doesn't have anything to do with the nationsim.

Quite frankly, I think Keno and Dice should be de-monetized as well. There's just no good reason, when considering multiplayer game balance, to have features that can potentially dump game-changing amounts of extra cash into an already-fragile economy.

 

If I may ask, can you post how much money you've made from baseball games?

 

edit: for reference here's mine: Money Invested: $17,827,500.00 | Money Earned: $1,668,200.13

Edited by Bartholomew Roberts
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4 minutes ago, Yuno said:

No please :(

one of my friends  who's new to P&W (and is bad at English)  plays Baseball ALL day, she plays like 3000 games a day, because she wants to make cities and infrastructure. She hates war and does NOT want to loot/raid nations so she doesn't build a Military, and probably never will (Peaceful nation). (*Unless* for self defense, but even then, she's reluctant.)  Baseball is her only source of income :( she wouldn't have gotten to 9 cities (and hopefully 20+ cities in the future without it) -- also all her clicks are REAL. All my clicks take time too, I multitask/read tons of stories/movies when doing baseball. (I can link her nation but I'm not going to in this forum.)

Also, Dryard. Why don't you report the person in question  if you have evidence that they're using a tool. Who are you talking about? 

Not trying to be the fun police, but the fact that you and your friends are building your nations from funds gleaned from the baseball feature feeds into my point about it being game-changing money.

The Admin of the game has come out and stated multiple times that baseball isn't intended as a way to make money and a lot of people have turned into a source of substantial income.

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2 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

Not trying to be the fun police, but the fact that you and your friends are building your nations from funds gleaned from the baseball feature feeds into my point about it being game-changing money.

The Admin of the game has come out and stated multiple times that baseball isn't intended as a way to make money and a lot of people have turned into a source of substantial income.

Really? The funds to buy to her 5th city (for this random noob who earned 2 million dollars per 2100 games- a process that takes 10 hours- I might be exaggerating but I've seen her go at it *all day*), and then finally grinded her way up an extra couple cities at the bottom tier is game changing? 

But I do agree about banning Bots (if they exist). Botters shouldn't ruin it for legit players. Thank you for scrutinizing about it.

Edited by Yuno
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1 hour ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

I feel like you're approaching this from "battle mode" like we're in the IC section. Chillax breh.

 

I'm not arguing about a "nerf" or accusing anyone of anything. I'm simply presenting a solution to close an unreasonable loophole that people utilize to make extra cash.

 

My point is that this topic has come up, been argued over, and been controversial for years. It's time to close the book on the issue. I don't want to kill your fun so keep playing baseball all day long. Just take the in-game impact away from a feature that doesn't have anything to do with the nationsim.

Quite frankly, I think Keno and Dice should be de-monetized as well. There's just no good reason, when considering multiplayer game balance, to have features that can potentially dump game-changing amounts of extra cash into an already-fragile economy.

 

If I may ask, can you post how much money you've made from baseball games?

 

edit: for reference here's mine: Money Invested: $17,827,500.00 | Money Earned: $1,668,200.13

As Yuno pointed out you can make more money via trading with less clicks and less time. Trading invariably benefits those with more cash as you can make bigger profits quicker. 

Countering your points is not battle mode.

The money made via baseball is not unreasonable nor unbalancing. In fact If guess a lot of people still play this game because of baseball. Whether that's making enough money to be able to continue fighting while under blockade as an underdog, to supplement there income while raiding, or simply something else to do in a game that offers very little gameplay. I believe the pros outweigh any cons. Hence why I'm asking you for good reasons why baseball should be nerfed.

Money Invested: $97,995,500.00 | Money Earned: $258,090,264.00

Bear in mind my baseball team has been active since the Ayyyslamic Crusade war and I've played 32k games in that time. So yeah not exactly a great return on time invested. As a comparison I've made over 500 million via trading and I only did trading for 3 months during the same period and my initial investment was 5 million. 

Edited by Tiberius
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18 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Mixed feelings on baseball, can constantly make money if clicking some buttons right. Whether people should be able to accumulate extra money by wasting time versus strategic forethought is an interesting question.

Lol, everything we do is just wasting time there isn't any strategic forethought needed since strategy was worked out a long time ago. You make money constantly from just logging in, from clicking the right buttons to raid, from clicking the right buttons to make a profit on the Market.  

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1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Lol, everything we do is just wasting time there isn't any strategic forethought needed since strategy was worked out a long time ago. You make money constantly from just logging in, from clicking the right buttons to raid, from clicking the right buttons to make a profit on the Market.  

I don’t think baseball should be nerfed at all if kept in the game though & guess it does promote activity. So probably should be left alone.

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1 hour ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

I don’t think baseball should be nerfed at all if kept in the game though & guess it does promote activity. So probably should be left alone.

Yes, it is good for meeting other people too. I've met more people on PW via baseball than through any other mechanic in the game. It's a community within a community. 

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At 60 games per minute, with an average yield of about $.02mn, that's $1.2 million per minute. Over 12 hours, this amounts to $864 million.

 

Is this where the mysterious 600 billion extra cash came from? If you had two players doing 4 hours a day of baseball at 60 games per minute with max upgrades, you'd be able to generate 864 million in 3 days. It'd take 6000 man-days of 4 hours (24000 man hours) to generate 864 billion.

 

Let's assume GPWC has 50 members who can do this, in 25 pairs. That reduces the total requirement into 960 hours. Split into 4 hours per day, it implies that GPWC can create 864 billion in about 8 months.

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10 minutes ago, Inst said:

At 60 games per minute, with an average yield of about $.02mn, that's $1.2 million per minute. Over 12 hours, this amounts to $864 million.

 

Is this where the mysterious 600 billion extra cash came from? If you had two players doing 4 hours a day of baseball at 60 games per minute with max upgrades, you'd be able to generate 864 million in 3 days. It'd take 6000 man-days of 4 hours (24000 man hours) to generate 864 billion.

 

Let's assume GPWC has 50 members who can do this, in 25 pairs. That reduces the total requirement into 960 hours. Split into 4 hours per day, it implies that GPWC can create 864 billion in about 8 months.

That is impossible. You haven't taken into account:

A. The server lag that hits frequently

B. The regular captchas

C. There is 0 chance of getting 60 games per minute. 

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46 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

That is impossible. You haven't taken into account:

A. The server lag that hits frequently

B. The regular captchas

C. There is 0 chance of getting 60 games per minute. 

 

On 9/4/2019 at 5:47 PM, Galerion said:

a832153e86c0368eb558f85cb8df05e8.png

 

Get a mouse like this and you can do 50+ a min easy no need to F5.

 

 

===

 

 

TBH, pooball was a fool. All he had to do was to start an Orbis Baseball League and he'd have his hundreds of billions pronto.

Edited by Inst

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12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Read my post again......

I've paid million of reps through baseball before. It's just a real hassle, but if you can get people to press buttons endlessly you can turn PnW into Cow Clicker 3.0.

.

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