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16 hours ago, CandyShi said:

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Now of course this is from wikipedia, which isn't exactly a reliable source, but I think it's accurate enough in showing the absolute numbers advantage the USSR had in the Soviet-Japanese war. This is on top of it happening in August 1945, after Hiroshima and Nagasaki already happened. 

I'm pretty sure the most obvious reason that the US didn't escalate Korea is because they didn't want to start WWIII by using nukes (*cough McArthur*).

But... the soviets got destroyed. It's often called "Soviet Vietnam"... 

 

 

Irrelevant to your post and definitely deflecting but ok. 

 

Also the book's themes, according to your wikipedia page, boil down to this:

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I like how you've put a completely irrelevant novel as your source, hoping that I wouldn't check what it was. 

It's completely irrelevant to what I was saying earlier, and I only see it as another pathetic deflection attempt. It's ironic that the negative reviews for this novel say "lack of perspective, failure to make its case, and a tendency to whitewash Red Army [The USSR] crimes on the Eastern Front" (your wikipedia page thing), which is exactly what you're doing here. Lack of perspective, definitely failing to make a case (what exactly is your case again?) and definitely ignoring all the atrocities that the USSR also committed. I'd venture to say that Stalin killed more people than Hitler, and that's after Hitler tried to exterminate an entire race/religion.

Now that you've shown how you're just using this to deflect from the main point, I'll just treat any more posts as I would a post from Noctis or Tiberius. (Any block feature on this forum?)

There's an easily accessible block feature if you'd like.

 

Regarding Khalkin Gol, read up on exactly how the battle was fought. The Soviets under Zhukov conducted a "double envelopment" of the Japanese forces, effectively flanking them and surrounding them with armored divisions. Moreover, the key lesson both sides took away was the superiority of Russian armor, although the Soviets were unhappy with their infantry performance. The Japanese armor, for instance, was notoriously poor, and the Japanese were considered essentially a World War I army given the weakness of their armored force. When it came to aircraft and naval tactics, they were highly competitive, with I-16s hardpressed against the Ki-27s employed (the predecessor to the Ki-43, Oscar, or "Army Zero). And in the artillery field, the Soviets had better quality of artillery, quickly wiping out the IJA's artillery support with longer-ranged and more capable artillery. Also notable was the Soviet superiority in logistics ("Amateurs discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics"). The Soviets maintained truck corps that provided far superior logistics capability to the Japanese, who tended to horse mounts.

 

And of course, there's August Storm, wherein the Soviets completely wrecked the Japanese forces in Manchukuo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria

 

For Afghanistan, that's like saying the Americans got destroyed in Vietnam. The Soviets were facing numerous islamic terrorists (ever wonder how the Taliban got their start?) with both American and Chinese support (the Americans provided Stingers and funding, the Chinese provided Type 69 dual-use RPGs). And guess what? The Taliban is reputed to have taken 57,000 KIAs as a baseline. The Soviets lost 14,453 soldiers. Compare this to the Americans in Vietnam, wherein the US forces alongside the South Vietnamese took a total of 371,318 casualties to 849,018 North Vietnamese casualties.


In reality, the Soviets only pulled out of Afghanistan toward the end of the Soviet Union. Full counter-insurgency as the Chinese had ran in Tibet would have been more successful, but at the time the Soviets were already under severe economic strain.

 

As far as the book goes, this is not a novel, but an academic book. So once again, KERCHTOG is either unwilling to process reality or just plain misreading facts. You are also misquoting the thesis of the book. It's not surprising, given how rancorous Soup Kitchen has been (and I'd say that conversations with TRM have been one reason NPO entered).

 

====

 

In general, the desire to paint this as the Axis vs the Soviets is completely dunderheaded. The Axis wasn't even good. As I've said before, "amateurs talk tactics, professionals discuss logistics". The Germans generally ran maintenance queens that were not suited for a full-scale attritional war. The T-34 was superior to almost all Panzers, and the Soviets were competitive with their heavy tanks towards the end of the war. And the Soviets had generous truck-based logistics trains. The Nazis, on the other hand, were resorting to horse-drawn forces by the middle of the war. Hitler, likewise, made numerous strategic and tactical errors, with the early performance against the Soviets being possible only because Stalin wanted to make man-love to Hitler and was caught by surprise, that the Soviets were outnumbered in the Eastern Front at the outset of the war, and that Stalin had devastated the Soviet NCO and officer corps.

 

And let's not even talk about the Japanese. The IJA and IJN, when all factors were considered, were second-rate forces that were only successful because they caught the European powers unaware, and that the Chinese Guomindang forces were notoriously incompetent, to the point wherein artillery support never arrived because local warlords refused to expose their artillery. The IJA's utter lack of competent armor, and the IJA/IJN's inability to field competent air support past the initial Zero era (and tactics like Boom and Zoom utilized by the Flying Tigers and the Thach Weave of the USN basically negated them) made the war a complete joke after the initial stages of the war.

Edited by Inst
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I also wish to note, that the only way the Nazi-Soviet analogy makes any sense would be if Manthrax were the supreme commander of KERCHTOG forces, that he was coked up the entire duration of war planning (believable), and is planning to commit suicide with Eva Braun (Adrienne?) in the Fuehrerbunker at the end of the war.

Edited by Inst
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11 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

@CandyShi Inst was referring to the 1939 border conflicts, not the 1945 wholesale invasion of Manchuria. Though Inst is also wrong in that regard, at least partially so. The Japanese were perfectly able to match Soviet combined arms at a tactical level (take a look at the Soviet casualties sustained in both in Khalkhin Gol, and Lake Khasan). What they couldn't match was the operational aspect, and even further, the logistics behind it. Quite frankly, it strikes as odd that Inst wouldn't highlight Zhukov's masterful arrangement of the logistics for Khalkhin gol, which pretty much contrasted the glaring SNAFU situation of Japanese logistics.

Also, he does oversimplify it a bit on how Japan proceeded to operate afterwards. Whether to expand north or south was by and large a conflict of interests between the IJA and IJN. Quite obviously, the IJA would be of greater importance for expanding northwards, while the IJN would be vital for seizing southernmost assets. This is important to consider due to both competing for the limited resources Japan had at it's disposal, and contributed greatly to the failings of Japan in WW2. At any rate, the defeat in Manchuria, alongside the developments in the early stages of WW2 (both an opening on seizing the colonies due to the fall of the Netherlands and France, alongside the U.K. being stretched thin, coupled with renewed U.S. oil embargoes) are why Japan ultimately decided with going south.

This is necessary in any brief discussion of the conflict. As far as the Japanese being able to match Soviet combined arms, recall that August Storm was decisive and that the Japanese at no point in the war were a major tank power.

 

After having read about how the IJA operated, and its transformation since Meiji, one of the glaring annoyances about fetishizing the Empire of Japan was that the IJA plain sucked. It was competent vs the Chinese, or MacArthur, who operated as a WWI general, but the lack of strong and numerous armor made the IJA rather a joke once tanks were landed.

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11 minutes ago, CandyShi said:

Never mentioned Japan being any good... or mentioned Japan at all for that matter. You’re the one who brought them up, and obviously anyone with any knowledge of WWII knows that the Japanese 

a) won early on due to surprise

b) invaded China for resources and land (not to avoid the soviets wtf?)

 

 

 

Since it seems like you’re continuing to bring up irrelevant information, I’ll probably  waste my time rebuking when I get home. Until then, I need to get back in the operation room. KThxBye.

 

I'm merely mentioning the issues with the Axis in general. On Discord, I've compared Chaos to the Italians (given that the Italians were notoriously bad, so much that they got stalled by Ethiopians of all people) to Akuryo's amusement. And once again, any serious student of WW2 will note the weaknesses of German forces in general. Tactically competent, but strategically dense (the siege of Kiev was a major German victory, but it diverted forces from the advance on Moscow that gave the Soviets their first major victory).

 

I'd also mention that trying to identify yourself with the Axis on the Eastern Front is very KKKT, given the numerous war atrocities committed by the Germans. Part of the reason the Soviets were so willing to sustain large casualties in attacks was that the Nazis were committing genocide in held ex-Soviet territories and that the speed of the advance was crucial.

 

Recently, I was muted for 48 hours on the Discord for being critical of Islamic fundamentalists. Is this racism exceeding mine?

Edited by Inst
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7 hours ago, Inst said:

This is necessary in any brief discussion of the conflict. As far as the Japanese being able to match Soviet combined arms, recall that August Storm was decisive and that the Japanese at no point in the war were a major tank power.

 

After having read about how the IJA operated, and its transformation since Meiji, one of the glaring annoyances about fetishizing the Empire of Japan was that the IJA plain sucked. It was competent vs the Chinese, or MacArthur, who operated as a WWI general, but the lack of strong and numerous armor made the IJA rather a joke once tanks were landed.

*Edit.* Mod gave a general verbal for off topic shortly after I posted this, so keep that in mind when you read this Inst.

Japan's tank prowess was sufficient for what they had intended it to be; conflicts with either nations that possessed little to no tanks (such as China), or in terrains where their specifications worked to their advantage (such as the invasion of the European colonies). Due to the scarcity of steel (made worse by the embargoes) alongside the priority given to the IJN for whatever there indeed was, to hold Japan to the Soviet Union standards, who went the polar opposite route and built a metric frick ton of tanks, is simply an unrealistic expectation. Just like it'd be unreasonable to hold the Soviet Union to Japanese standards in regards to navy building, particularly on the surface fleet aspect. It'd also be akin to looking at how many Essex the U.S. built, and going like "well, clearly anyone else is a third world shithole if they don't match our naval output".

The lack of anti-tank measures hurt the IJA badly, yes. And honestly, they have no real excuse for lacking them. And it was indeed made worse with the rapid advances on armor during the war, which the Japanese weren't unable to keep up with. However, I think that you are holding the IJA to the standards and metrics of an European army fighting in Europe, which, no. SEA was a far more underdeveloped and both the climate and terrain were plenty harsher, and limited the extent to which armor could be effectively employed. Hell, you can find reports from the Americans during the Korean War (this is mainland Asia ftr) where one of the rationales for preferring the Jackson over the Pershing as an up-gun for the Shermans was the weight, and ease of transportation that comes with it. Same thing with the French and their preference for the Jackson over their captured and refurbished Panthers in Indochina. Though for them, the larger caliber and therefore more effective high explosive fire support was likely also another reason.

Also, considering that basically everyone, bar the Germans and Soviets, had the WW1 mentality in 1939, and the Soviets were busy both killing their talented officer core, and refilling them with inexperienced if not incompetent replacements as a result of their simultaneous expansion, well... Let's just say that while I agree that the SU's capabilities are underappreciated in the West, and unfairly so (I very much agree with that), you've been going the direct opposite route this entire thread.

*Edit.*

Wait... You're seriously saying that the Japanese sucked because the Kwantung army, one that had been weakened throughout the years due to being a reinforcement pool for forces in other theaters of the war and due to the blockade, got crushed (which it did) by the Soviets in 1945, who had spent months bringing their European theater battle hardened troops and equipment which technologically leapfrogged whatever the Japanese had in mainland Asia.

...

Yes, that was the only possible outcome of that whole set of operations. Not unlike Tsushima 40 years earlier. Both were spectacular victories, but were never destined to be anything but. 

>Second rate forces.

>Caught the European countries unaware.

Mate, the British had been expecting the Japanese for a while by then. What came as a surprise on the outset was that the Japanese simultaneously attacked all of the Allied naval assets within distance, and not just Pearl Harbor. They bombed Hawaii as they made their push south. They were definitely not second rate forces ( if they are, then rip the French armed forces, Italian land army, Soviet Red Navy, etc) and had plenty enough momentum by themselves. Said momentum was simply bound to be lost if victory wasn't secured in a short timespan (which it never would've been), and that was something that not only Yamamoto, but basically anyone who had been to the U.S. and seen its industrial facilities, predicted would've happened.

 

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
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  • Moderators
3 hours ago, Dio Brando said:

@Chief Wiggum what’s a mod to do in these dark times? 

Just a general reminder - utilizing the report feature will get a mod response much faster than trying to tag individual mods in a post.

 

To everyone else - please keep threads on-topic. This is your verbal warning.

 

See the source image

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2 minutes ago, Robot Santa said:

Just a general reminder - utilizing the report feature will get a mod response much faster than trying to tag individual mods in a post.

Yes, but I may have missed out on the hilarious mod gifs. :( 

Anyway, thank you, and will do.

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12 hours until this gets locked.

9 hours ago, MRBOOTY said:

BTW, this war we became first in score again, 5 years after Rose initially topped the alliance rankings. No other alliance has that much lasting success.

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>Citing reasons for Rose being a successful alliance.

>Not mentioning that literally everyone was in Rose at one point in time.

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
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2 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

Slot filled a TKR gov member after leaving the war and proclaiming “neutrality”. 

I had some trades with Pantheon today. Please don't roll Pantheon.

 

 

Edited by alyster
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2 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

Slot filled a TKR gov member after leaving the war and proclaiming “neutrality”. 

So who exactly was the gov member of TKR they slotted? Because from what I can see the only attacks after the Empreya wars finished when they exited the global war from your side, are against Arrgh and Queen Anne Revenge. None of which I can see being listed as TKR government so your slot filled a TKR gov member is urm questionable...

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2 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

Slot filled a TKR gov member after leaving the war and proclaiming “neutrality”. 

Even if they attacked a member of TKR, what right does that give you to attack TFP? TKR clearly didn't give you permission on a slot fill that never happened in the first place, so you can put your justice boner away and just admit you were just looking for a reason to attack them. 

Also just to add, they'd still be considered fighting for your side so it literally makes no sense. 

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