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22 minutes ago, durmij said:

They very much were the strongest army in the world, if only for a brief time. The number of deployed men was the highest for several years until the USA hit their peak mobilization. They would have been the strongest in the world for a good chunk of the post war period too.

Building on this there was a very real fear the the Soviets would not stop and the agreed upon line and keep rolling into the west. This is one of the primary arguments (that I don't prescribe to personally) that the nuclear bombs were dropped not to make Japan surrender, but to intimidate the Soviets. Even if the United States had equal theoretical strength almost all of the USSR's forces were situated in better geographic locations, and with much shorter supply lines. Hence why any military actions against the Soviets was "unthinkable".

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2 hours ago, Smith said:

"You guys are still complaining about this? Boo-hoo. Don't start wars you can't finish then."

This is a silly argument. Once those leaks were revealed it was clear our side had two options. Either wait to get dogpiled by you or attack and take the fight to you. We did not start this, we just realized the inevitability of it and made the best of our situation. 

 

Also it is funny that your comic says we are the ones who keep making the same slave comment over and over again. Outside Scarf's thread I mainly see IQ bringing it up in every thread :P

Inevitable or not, you guys did indeed start this. We'll be the ones finishing it though, no worries!

Also, while I would agree that outside of Scarfy's deranged copypasta, it's mostly us using the "BK slaves" line (because it's really quite funny tbh), the sentiment, if not the exact words, behind it is all over your coalition's forums posts. 
Just look at the OP of this thread:
"BK forces all the protectorates into war."
"What are you guys doing there? Suffering under reign of terror?"

How else can that be interpreted besides more of the usual "muh (BK/NPO) vassals that they control in totality and use as meatshields" shit that's been peddled this whole war since Scarfy went ballistic over Discord roles? I don't think it's that hard to see why nonsense like that is only deserving of a good rendition of "BK slaves" ?

 

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"They say the secret to success is being at the right place at the right time. But since you never know when the right time is going to be, I figure the trick is to find the right place and just hang around!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Kastor> He left and my !@#$ nation is !@#$ed up. And the Finance guy refuses to help. He just writes his !@#$ plays.

<Kastor> And laughs and shit.

<Kastor> And gives out !@#$ huge loans to Arthur James, that !@#$ bastard.

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34 minutes ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

Building on this there was a very real fear the the Soviets would not stop and the agreed upon line and keep rolling into the west. This is one of the primary arguments (that I don't prescribe to personally) that the nuclear bombs were dropped not to make Japan surrender, but to intimidate the Soviets. Even if the United States had equal theoretical strength almost all of the USSR's forces were situated in better geographic locations, and with much shorter supply lines. Hence why any military actions against the Soviets was "unthinkable".

Everything about the mainstream telling about the dropping of the bombs is shoddy imo. Especially since Japan was already seeking a surrender before the bombs were dropped. The intimidate the Soviet line was also ascribed to the firebombing of Dresden, which was not nearly the travesty the Nazis portrayed it to be (the town itself conducted a study to prove the the casualty count was much lower than claimed).

Position was indeed very key. A post war Soviet allied conflict would have seen the Soviets roll through pretty hard initially. After that is subject to too much speculation.

Rare photo of temporary truce in the Dial-up War. Both sides coming together to kick around for a bit of sport.

dial-up-truce.png

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14 hours ago, Tarroc said:

On a different note, isn't this like.... the 100th forum post that has said the same thing? "BK is bad, NPO helps BK, IQ exists, what is the future of Orbis?"

 

 

Precisely. I don't want to be rude to Alyster here, but I don't see why a new forums post was needed at all for anything stated here. I feel that its just more evidence of how stale and frankly boring the forums have become during this war  - both sides bash each other with the same arguments, and we get nowhere.

As proof of this, this topic has derailed into a conversation about the USSR, which has frankly been more interesting (imo) than most conversations on here during the war.

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23 minutes ago, TheNG said:

Inevitable or not, you guys did indeed start this. We'll be the ones finishing it though, no worries!

Also, while I would agree that outside of Scarfy's deranged copypasta, it's mostly us using the "BK slaves" line (because it's really quite funny tbh), the sentiment, if not the exact words, behind it is all over your coalition's forums posts. 
Just look at the OP of this thread:
"BK forces all the protectorates into war."
"What are you guys doing there? Suffering under reign of terror?"

How else can that be interpreted besides more of the usual "muh (BK/NPO) vassals that they control in totality and use as meatshields" shit that's been peddled this whole war since Scarfy went ballistic over Discord roles? I don't think it's that hard to see why nonsense like that is only deserving of a good rendition of "BK slaves" ?

 

That is an interesting way of looking at it. It appears all we did was speed up your timeline and yet you are accusing us of starting it since we did not simply wait for you to attack us. 

Your original criticism was we have no reason to complain about a dogpile since we "started" this and now you aren't even denying that a dogpile was inevitable. So what is your point? Obviously people are going to be upset about the largest sphere in the game planning to start another dogpile. Especially since it was revealed in the Sphinx logs that your CB would be to "contain" a sphere that you already massively outnumber.

By now it should be obvious to everyone why your side only wants to talk about who is going to win this war and not what your victory would mean for the game. It is better to focus on that than how much this war has cost BK/NPO politically and how severely it has damaged the opportunity this community had for a shift from the political status quo. 

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2 minutes ago, Dio Brando said:

I’m just waiting for @Shiho Nishizumi to chime in. 

I had a much larger response on regards to the technological aspect, which quite frankly it was dumb for him to claim that they were subpar in that regard, when in reality they were more or less even with the other greater powers. But I scrapped it when the bombs aspect came to the table. 

Regardless of the express intent of dropping them (Japanese unconditional surrender vs spooking Stalin), I think it's fair to say that the Americans simply wanted to see what sort of tangible impact they had on an actual target, as morbid as that may sound with the power of hindsight. However, I wouldn't say that it's surprising if that were the case, given the aftermath of Unit 731.

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48 minutes ago, durmij said:

Everything about the mainstream telling about the dropping of the bombs is shoddy imo. Especially since Japan was already seeking a surrender before the bombs were dropped. The intimidate the Soviet line was also ascribed to the firebombing of Dresden, which was not nearly the travesty the Nazis portrayed it to be (the town itself conducted a study to prove the the casualty count was much lower than claimed).

Position was indeed very key. A post war Soviet allied conflict would have seen the Soviets roll through pretty hard initially. After that is subject to too much speculation.

 

23 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

I had a much larger response on regards to the technological aspect, which quite frankly it was dumb for him to claim that they were subpar in that regard, when in reality they were more or less even with the other greater powers. But I scrapped it when the bombs aspect came to the table. 

Regardless of the express intent of dropping them (Japanese unconditional surrender vs spooking Stalin), I think it's fair to say that the Americans simply wanted to see what sort of tangible impact they had on an actual target, as morbid as that may sound with the power of hindsight. However, I wouldn't say that it's surprising if that were the case, given the aftermath of Unit 731.

I mean the atomic bombs saved far more lives than they cost. Operation Downfall would have killed way more Americans and far more Japanese than either bomb would cost. The Americans were ready to gas every Japanese cave and they Japanese were sharpening bamboo sticks to use as spears. It would have been Iwo Jima x100 and the bombs stopped that from occurring.

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3 minutes ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

 

I mean the atomic bombs saved far more lives than they cost. Operation Downfall would have killed way more Americans and far more Japanese than either bomb would cost. The Americans were ready to gas every Japanese cave and they Japanese were sharpening bamboo sticks to use as spears. It would have been Iwo Jima x100 and the bombs stopped that from occurring.

This isn't accurate because Operation Downfall was unnecessary. Japan was already suing for peace and the USA's naval and air dominance meant that Japan had no recourse. The bombs were not needed in anyway, shape or form.

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Just now, durmij said:

This isn't accurate because Operation Downfall was unnecessary. Japan was already suing for peace and the USA's naval and air dominance meant that Japan had no recourse. The bombs were not needed in anyway, shape or form.

They were suing for peace but not an unconditional surrender, and that was the sticking point. The bombs were absolutely necessary when you consider factors such as elements of the Japanese military still refusing to surrender and attempting a coup. It is a possibility that America could have held Japan to a perpetual blockade and bomb their country but its likely this would cost far more lives than a capitulation after nuclear bomb use.

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27 minutes ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

I mean the atomic bombs saved far more lives than they cost. Operation Downfall would have killed way more Americans and far more Japanese than either bomb would cost. The Americans were ready to gas every Japanese cave and they Japanese were sharpening bamboo sticks to use as spears. It would have been Iwo Jima x100 and the bombs stopped that from occurring.

If it was just the United States, yes, you're right. The problem is that it wasn't just the United States that would partake on such operation.

Preparations had been made to bring the Soviets in and have them assist on the invasion of the Home Islands, with the West supplying amphibious landing vessels and the such, alongside Halsey going out of his way to bomb the ragged remains of the IJN in Kure, half of that reason being to prevent any sort of naval presence that could impede a Soviet invasion of Hokkaido.

The entire Japanese take for an eventual invasion of the Home Islands was one of "well if we make them bleed badly enough they will cave in and let us surrender and keep our emprah", which was based off of how usually the American public opinion grew a huge stinker on operations which were particularly bloody. Well, for one they were underestimating how pissed the Americans were that an inferior Asian nation so dared to hit their stuff in the way they did (racism was obviously still a huge thing back then, that's the simple reality of it), and such hatred and disdain had only grown worse when reports of Bataan and other atrocities came in which were made worse by propaganda.

Going back to the Soviets, the Japanese plans didn't exactly account for such entry, which not only would've meant substantially more soldiers to fend off, but also a foe that quite frankly didn't give much of a frick about casualties taken, and that threw their entire contingency plan out of the window. That's not to mention that the Russians were still mad about the Russo-Japanese war, which was evidenced by the Soviet ambassador demanding Mikasa be dismantled because it was a stain on muh Russian prestige, and only going back on such demand when he saw that the hull was nothing more than a sorry hunk of scrap that was serving as a pool and some cheap night bar for the occupying GI's, a fate he deemed to be worse than it being scrapped. So yeah, there was absolutely a bit of Japanese pride on that conflict at stake with a Soviet entry.

That's also part of the reason why it's difficult to dictate whether it was the nukes or the Soviet entry what caused the Japanese to finally fold. Given they both occurred very close to each other (if memory serves me right, the Soviets invaded Manchuria the same day Nagasaki got nuked). I'd say that from a public standpoint, the Japanese preferred to attribute it to the nukes, both for legitimate reasons of how overwhelmingly powerful of a weapon they were, and because it allowed them to save some face on their surrender by both surrendering to the Americans, and to a weapon of overwhelming power, rather than to the Soviets and conventional means. This would sound like an exaggeration, but the Japanese went out of their way not to include the word "surrender" on the speech they gave to the natives.

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
Minor edits.
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4 minutes ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

They were suing for peace but not an unconditional surrender, and that was the sticking point. The bombs were absolutely necessary when you consider factors such as elements of the Japanese military still refusing to surrender and attempting a coup. It is a possibility that America could have held Japan to a perpetual blockade and bomb their country but its likely this would cost far more lives than a capitulation after nuclear bomb use.

The only real sticking point was the safety, well-being and proclaimed innocence of the Emperor. Something the allies agreed to anyway. And there would be no need to bomb a couped Japan anymore. No fuel meant even suicide missions were impossible, and the drain of working age men meant that the agricultural sector couldn't support the country anymore. 

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I would've never thought I'd see something more nerdy than debating the supposed failures of coalitions in a browser based nation sim game. I was wrong.

(On a more serious note, please continue. The posts make for interesting reads.)

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3 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

stuff

By the time that operation downfall was planned the Cold War was already in full swing. There wasn't any serious effort to include the Soviets as the Americans knew including them would only induce a North/South Korean East/West Germany situation. Americans never liked blood, but they were certainly willing to shed it, and on the Japanese even more so than the Germans. But to argue that it was Soviet entry vs American nukes seems silly when it is the comparison of losing a colony vs having a home territory being destoryed. It is akin to having the British lose India vs Manchester being nuked. Both are large losses, but only one hits the soul of the British.

7 minutes ago, durmij said:

The only real sticking point was the safety, well-being and proclaimed innocence of the Emperor. Something the allies agreed to anyway. And there would be no need to bomb a couped Japan anymore. No fuel meant even suicide missions were impossible, and the drain of working age men meant that the agricultural sector couldn't support the country anymore. 

The emperor was barely granted clemency, and it was largely due to his usefulness as an American puppet. And no fuel wasn't quite the case, more the desperate lack of it. This is why the Japanese took such desperate measures such as preparing women to charge the beaches with spears. The lack of modern supplies was not a determent to continuation of the war, as they would literally rather have Japan die than submit.

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2 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

By the time that operation downfall was planned the Cold War was already in full swing. There wasn't any serious effort to include the Soviets as the Americans knew including them would only induce a North/South Korean East/West Germany situation. Americans never liked blood, but they were certainly willing to shed it, and on the Japanese even more so than the Germans. But to argue that it was Soviet entry vs American nukes seems silly when it is the comparison of losing a colony vs having a home territory being destoryed. It is akin to having the British lose India vs Manchester being nuked. Both are large losses, but only one hits the soul of the British.

Except Project Hula was a thing, and it was done for the express purpose of incorporating the Soviets into amphibiously invading southern Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. Hokkaido is just south west of the Kurils. At Yalta it had already been agreed that the Soviets would be opening up a new front on the Far East. And again, the remaining ships at Kure getting blown up in part just to prevent the possibility of them sailing north.

The South and North Korean situation didn't exist (it was still under Japanese control at the time), nor did the East/West German one per se. While it's true that there were concerns on not giving the Soviets too much ground, at this point in time the West still hadn't decided what to do with what would become West Germany. There were still plans which ranged from completely dissolving Germany and splitting their lands at the worst, and from there it was either have it exist but be an agricultural nation so it wouldn't be much of a military threat, alongside basically undoing 1871 and having them dissolve into smaller Germanic states and principalities. For the first years of the postwar, the Allies were dismantling industrial establishments in their occupied sectors and shipping them eastwards towards the Soviet Union in exchange of goods, mainly food. Transferring industrial capacity is the last thing you'd want to do if the concerns of a stand off with the Soviets were as great as portrayed in that timeline.

It's not silly for two reasons (aside from the very obvious threat of the Soviets invading Japan itself, whether it was intended or not. They had no way of knowing because their intelligence was garbage). The first reason is that you don't quite understand how Japan viewed it's possessions in mainland Asia (and elsewhere). They weren't just a source of natural resources and farming land, plus industries if those were there. They also acted as a buffer they deemed to be vital to safeguard the Home Islands themselves. That's the very same rationale for why they risked it so badly by starting the Russo-Japanese war, when their hold of Korea was being threatened by Russian aspirations in the Far East. It's also the reason why they were so eager to take over the German colonial possessions in SEA. It wasn't just a matter of projection, but also a barrier that their Western counterparts would need to take over first if they were to gun for the Home Islands. Such prediction and purpose proved to be correct when the Americans had to island hop from one island to the other so to make headway towards Japan itself. Such perception of their overseas holdings is also part of the reason why, when the U.S. basically told them "Yo, we'll lift the embargoes if you get the frick out of China and Manchuria.", Japan basically responded with "Well frick you." and went onto planning a preemptive strike so to seize the vulnerable European colonial holdings.

The other and second reason is, well, honor. Again, this is something that Westerners don't quite account for due to the cultural divide between the Far East and the West, and the differences between then and now, but that was another very important and present factor. I can't quite stress this hard enough. It was simply seen as more honorable to surrender to the Americans and their nukes (on top of all of the conventional military) than to the Soviets, who were by and large the people they had beaten 40 years earlier put so much pride on having done so. Obviously, securing a surrender with the Americans also made it far more likely for the Emperor to remain in place, if nothing else because the chances of him and the whole structure remaining if they had surrendered to the Soviets would've been zero.

Again, if you think that that's nonsense, remember that basically the reason why Ten Go even happened in the first place was because of Hirohito going like "Well why's the Navy fiddling with their thumbs in regards to Okinawa?", which played right into the thorn that was the Army vs Navy rivalry (if not hate) and not have the Navy fall relatively out of grace due to not trying anything pertaining the defence of Okinawa. That's not to mention honor being part of the reason for not a single Japanese combat unit (not individuals) ever surrendering before Hirohito's declaration, alongside staunch yet futile resistance presented all the way to Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The other two reasons pertain to propaganda and quite frankly, meth abuse, which is not something that many people realize was going on.
 

2 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

The emperor was barely granted clemency, and it was largely due to his usefulness as an American puppet. And no fuel wasn't quite the case, more the desperate lack of it. This is why the Japanese took such desperate measures such as preparing women to charge the beaches with spears. The lack of modern supplies was not a determent to continuation of the war, as they would literally rather have Japan die than submit.

More of a powerless yet popular figurehead for people to unite under, given the immense importance put upon his position due to State Shinto and decades of propaganda. For him to be a puppet he'd have needed to have any direct power of his own to exert in behalf of the Americans. The Peace Constitution wasn't that by a long shot, given that the Emperor is largely there for symbolic purposes and goodwill diplomatic tours as the ones that Hirohito ended up doing in the latter parts of his life.

With that said I wouldn't say "barely", and it was certainly not just the Emperor himself. The family by and large was exonerated from all responsibility, even members that were part of the IJA and IJN. It was quite frankly a fairly extensive program to make an apologia for him in particular, and sort of the population in general, with the military being thrown under the bus as a whole.

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
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1 hour ago, Buorhann said:

What the literal hell is happening here?

Lets go back to shit talking.

@Malal - At least I never cucked out as a Protector.

Too late kid, we won the ingame war, we won the forum war, and now we're gonna win the history war.

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Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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Honestly, I find ww2 kinda boring. How about we hop on back to Rome so I can &#33;@#&#036; about how Ceaser destroyed the republic just because he couldn't accept a comfortable exile in wealth and luxury but no political power. Or joke about how Justitian reconquered southern Iberia with like 3 guys and a shovel and somehow held it for 100 years until the final Roman-Parthian war broke out.

Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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Just now, Dio Brando said:

Menny's memes are amazing. 

Who tf is menny?

Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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1 minute ago, Dio Brando said:

Menhera. 

It's ok Under, I love your memes too.

Never heard of them, thought you were talking about micchan which, while okay, is certainly far from the best memer in game (I'll give her best in chaos bloc though)

Edited by Malal

Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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