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How long will this war go on for?

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20 minutes ago, Kevanovia said:

The leaked logs explicitly stated that BK sphere would be hitting Chaos sphere and attempting to hit KETOG in mid-to-late June. On top of other grumblings of war from Citadel (even while Surf’s Up was on-going) and Sphinx. Gorge has stated many times that he wants TKR dead. It’s asinine to insinuate that there was no intention to hit us. Everything mixed together = the current war we’re in.

To not recognize how that is relevant is absolutely ridiculous.

We...didn't say that? Keshav said that NPO wasn't aware of anything more than you all were, not that anyone couldn't have guessed BK might want to hit Chaos. What NPO wasn't privy to were logistical details of a prospective BK hit against Chaos because, like Keshav also said, we didn't agree to one. A hunch that BK's dislike of Chaos might turn into an aggressive war against Chaos isn't the same as knowledge of an aggressive war.

20 minutes ago, Kevanovia said:

In regards to your reply to Beerhoe, the issue has been and continues to be - creating a atmosphere on Orbis that is dynamic and competitive. NPO were taken by their word time and time again, this time based on their actions (“dissolving IQ”) they were believed that they were for a dynamic FA to shift gameplay and recreate how Politics are done. Instead they went back on their word and slid back into the same thing they have always done - attempt to establish a hegemony. I am assuming this why @Buorhann is “done”. 

Is it possible that you projected your conceptions of politics onto NPO's word and actions?

NPO has been pretty consistent in voicing its skepticism of minispheres as a concept since long before they were formed; I'm not sure why anyone would have thought NPO's attitudes towards them matched those of minispheres' loudest proponents. Our actions before and during this war have been consistent with our synthesis of dynamism and self-interest. Many of us are disappointed about how things turned out as well, but don't say we didn't give everyone else numerous chances to engage with us over our misgivings.

I don't recall ever attempting to establish a hegemony, let alone coming anywhere close to it. Could you point me to where we've done so?

What "word" did we go back on?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

The leaked logs explicitly stated that BK sphere would be hitting Chaos sphere and attempting to hit KETOG in mid-to-late June. On top of other grumblings of war from Citadel (even while Surf’s Up was on-going) and Sphinx. Gorge has stated many times that he wants TKR dead. It’s asinine to insinuate that there was no intention to hit us. Everything mixed together = the current war we’re in.

I mean the point at the end of the day, which if you read what I'm stating is, you hit them because you thought they were a threat. We hit TKR because thought they were a threat. There's no other way to go about it. To claim that somehow only you have that agency here, while we cannot is bordering ridiculousness. All of your arguments fall flat the moment you try to argue that we can't hit threats when we've received information which was newer than a month old logs. I'm not insinuating there was no intention to hit you. I have no clue if post May they wanted to, or thought otherwise, and it's not my problem. What I am pointing out is how you're arguments seem to allow space only for your side's agency in defending against threats, while if we do it, we're "killing the game." 

2 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

In regards to your reply to Beerhoe, the issue has been and continues to be - creating a atmosphere on Orbis that is dynamic and competitive. NPO were taken by their word time and time again, this time based on their actions (“dissolving IQ”) they were believed that they were for a dynamic FA to shift gameplay and recreate how Politics are done. Instead they went back on their word and slid back into the same thing they have always done - attempt to establish a hegemony. I am assuming this why @Buorhann is “done”. 

The NPO doesn't need to play by rules. Heck there are no world rules regarding actions one can take to make the game interesting for themselves. If by dynamic and competitive, you mean you folk are free to consolidate/combine and do as you please, while we cannot initiate our own actions to keep the game fun for us, you've essentially created your own hegemony. The NPO never said we're all in with minispheres the way KETOGG/Chaos wanted to play it. We made it clear there's a project with the N$O idea and we're going for that, on our own terms. We never said we'll never again combine with BK, and we never stated we won't combine with anyone else. You don't have a hegemony on the prevailing foreign affairs meta, so its best to stop projecting it as the rules of the meta. 

Our word has always been that we will protect our interests and our security. To claim we've always attempted to create a hegemony especially the way you constructed that sentence is dripping of bias from elsewhere, given how none of our actions in the last four years in Orbis has ever come close to wanting to create a hegemony. If you didn't know, we've spent close to three years surviving, rather than even winning wars. To constantly use these terms as some sort of moral cudgel is absolutely hilarious, but if anyone is here attempting to create what they always knew, that is an hegemony its Chaos/KETOGG busy trying to consolidate and roll folks as they please. 

 

Edited by Shadowthrone
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

That the NPO will always do what is in it's best interest to protect itself, just like TGH and co? If so, great! If it's about this whole chances nonsense again, please read my posts above. We don't need your kindness of giving us "chances." The only lesson I've taken from this is TGH feels entitled to win a war as it pleases, and can't handle a contested war, when people entered for similar reasons, and instead goes all doomsday on FA with folks. So much for your rhetoric over how wars shouldn't create grudges/ be short and fun and you're all for working with people you've fought. I guess those narratives stop, the moment you don't get your way. Today I learnt. 

I honestly don’t give a damn about winning or losing.  I’ve stated it multiple times, the damage has been done already (in multiple ways).

Do you ever go back and read your replies along with what Roq stated and see some of the double standards?

I find it hilarious that you stated NPO will act in its best interests as to justify entering the war after all the botched entries and lies (Horsemen, Syndicate, etc).

I guess it’s in your best interest to act shady on pulling your allies into a war after both you and your allies were told by multiple parties that they held no interest in having a conflict with you, or held you accountable.

 

And do I -really- have to repeat why we’re in this war again?  You’re not that much of an idiot are you?

Edited by Buorhann

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7 hours ago, Buorhann said:

I honestly don’t give a damn about winning or losing.  I’ve stated it multiple times, the damage has been done already (in multiple ways).

Do you ever go back and read your replies along with what Roq stated and see some of the double standards?

I find it hilarious that you stated NPO will act in its best interests as to justify entering the war after all the botched entries and lies (Horsemen, Syndicate, etc).

I guess it’s in your best interest to act shady on pulling your allies into a war after both you and your allies were told by multiple parties that they held no interest in having a conflict with you, or held you accountable.

 

And do I -really- have to repeat why we’re in this war again?  You’re not that much of an idiot are you?

Shady shit? Horsemen wanted to go for it and they did. I'm quite certain tS/HS know our reasons for entering the war/expanding given how we spent some time talking to them regarding the information we have. I mean if you're going to run such a narrative, at least find real issues. The NPO always acts in its best interests and has informed it's allies of its move every step of the way.

You telling us you have no interest in a conflict, was opposite of what we had, and we'd find it hard to believe you when it was literally the middle of the war and in your best interests to not have us intervene. So no, the NPO didn't buy Adrienne's rejection of that conversation and you folk busy trying to spin it as, there was going to be no expansion this war, does not mean you would not hit the N$O in a few months after BKsphere's down. So yeah, we weren't going to wait around again for you to build up in strength if we had to. Made no sense whatsoever, after considering a variety of scenarios. 

Nah you don't, but it comes to down to you had a threat and you dealt with it, and so did we. 

7 hours ago, AkAk said:

Congrats on your non-hegemony:

Aww thanks :) 

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Posted (edited)

I mean no offense when I say that I'm gonna give up reading these posts for the next week. I usually enjoy forum banter and I credit Keshav and Roq. For some high quantity posting... But it's too repetitive at this point. I'm losing faith in pnw and NPO folks are nicer on vc than anywhere else... 

Sometimes I think ketog is quicker to criticise but helps you find common ground. Whereas you argue in absolutes. 

Edited by Epi
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I imagine NPO leadership can't sleep at nights. Fear of Chaos rolling them has kept them up. Hence why they post 10 WoT every day each. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, AkAk said:

 

Congrats on your non-hegemony:

bpO0kh.jpg

This is sort of the reason why the stuff from your side has always been met with pure cynicism.  It's not a consolidated megasphere and if we possessed the status of hegemon, it would be a way more effective and cohesive group rather than a sphere where the members didn't do the same thing,  a bloc that broke up, and various alliances just doing their own thing. Nobody's unquestioningly taking marching orders from me in terms of the alliances in that group. The BKsphere was painted as invincible simply due to treaty web aesthetics and deceptive nation counts. That clearly didn't hold up.

 

19 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

The leaked logs explicitly stated that BK sphere would be hitting Chaos sphere and attempting to hit KETOG in mid-to-late June. On top of other grumblings of war from Citadel (even while Surf’s Up was on-going) and Sphinx. Gorge has stated many times that he wants TKR dead. It’s asinine to insinuate that there was no intention to hit us. Everything mixed together = the current war we’re in.

To not recognize how that is relevant is absolutely ridiculous.

In regards to your reply to Beerhoe, the issue has been and continues to be - creating a atmosphere on Orbis that is dynamic and competitive. NPO were taken by their word time and time again, this time based on their actions (“dissolving IQ”) they were believed that they were for a dynamic FA to shift gameplay and recreate how Politics are done. Instead they went back on their word and slid back into the same thing they have always done - attempt to establish a hegemony. I am assuming this why @Buorhann is “done”. 

So you could have hit any point before, but didn't. If you felt they were going to hit you, there was no need to wait for the Chaos-KETOG war to begin winding down. It's unlikely they'd have anything to hit once the chaos-ketog war happened.  For us, it's just you both hate each other so you took the chance to hit them when the situation gave you the best moral case.

I don't want to pile on here, but we don't really see it in actions. The minisphere construct simply seemed like a way to accrue strength in certain places and to disempower others.  I brought up the issue with personal ties. We all know about who can perform how well. How is entering a war and getting people upset attempting to establish hegemony over P&W? How was it going to shift to dynamic gameplay and change politics at all when it was the same smoke filled backrooms?  Are we going to be in charge of our entire coalition when BK couldn't itself manage that despite its treaty ties? When have we tried to establish hegemony over the game?  To be honest, I've never seen a coalition as unified as yours when you guys all suicided to save Boyce. I was floored. You guys all had your heads in the metagame and sacrificed for each other the entire time while we had people porting  CN concepts like being a "meatshield".

I could go over our trajectory thus far. 

1. Initial gov tries to do a third sphere between Synd and Paracov. Neither set of allies on each side is that interested in it.

2. Realizing this, I did try to make Paracov more cohesive but i didn't get it done in time but that was also because Paracov was not a hegemony and was mostly a paper tiger that couldn't coordinate and distrust reigned since both of the two had let each other get rolled. The alliances were also reactive rather than proactive, so it ultimately failed to get aggressive until it was too late and fell apart. Then actual hegemony was established by the other side.

3.  More or less pure isolation except for one solid offer from BK. Then a losing war where the numbers didn't beat the EMC side and there was no expectation of an easy win.

4. People saying IQ achieved hegemony through pure numbers while casually sending people to beat down weak spots and then doing a war that found it on the back foot. Alliances like KT regularly tried to poach people from BK and BK was ridiculed for losing members and were told their FA policy was exclusively to NPO's benefit.

5. A chance at one war against upper tier people. 

6. Mini-sphere stuff where KETOG adds people  and has paperless connections and initially is fine working with Chaos. 

Your side's idea of doing us favors and giving us the benefit of the doubt  is having us commit actions or non-actions that benefit you solely. That's sort of the problem. We don't derive any benefit from your success and we felt it would endanger us and there was enough evidence in our eyes that it would.  Your side didn't care to address the issues we had with your side in terms of the composition.  If Buorhann is done because we didn't let him dismantle the BKsphere while he kept a bunch of people friendly to each other in the upper tier on one side, then that's his prerogative but we know who that would put in the driver's seat. It just means we'll have to sleep with one eye open when it comes to KETOG forever. That's cool with me though. 

 

 

Edited by Roquentin
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11 minutes ago, Epi said:

I mean no offense when I say that I'm gonna give up reading these posts for the next week. I usually enjoy forum banter and I credit Keshav and Roq. For some high quantity posting... But it's too repetitive at this point. I'm losing faith in pnw and NPO folks are nicer on vc than anywhere else... 

Sometimes I think ketog is quicker to criticise but helps you find common ground. Whereas you argue in absolutes. 

I mean circular responses from them leaves us going into the same topic over and over again. NPO lied, we didn't. NPO's seeking to establish a hegemony, we haven't. NPO's attempting to kill the game, we are not. Can't help when we have to deal with these narratives x100 times. 

There's no common ground to be found with KETOGG if the only ground they want is the one where they can pick up easy wins. 

12 minutes ago, alyster said:

I imagine NPO leadership can't sleep at nights. Fear of Chaos rolling them has kept them up. Hence why they post 10 WoT every day each. 

Also helps having multiple timezones and a leadership spread widely ;) 

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13 minutes ago, Syrachime said:

 

The toxicity of these topics is not in anyway helpful to the community.  It's pathetic that all almost everyone seems to do is play the 'he said, she said' game.  I'm a proud member of TKR, but having said that, I frankly don't care at this point WHY NPO declared on us.  I'm also not interested in the accusations that both sides have been throwing out about secret treaties with one another as so many have pointed out.  All I know, and all that matters is we are at war.  And after three months of these back and forth political games, I could care less HOW we got to this point.  We all have our opinions about what's happened and why, and I'm not going to debate that.  What's really getting under my skin though is the pathetic, crude behavior and finger pointing that's happened on both sides since the entire war began.  This pitiful display has done absolutely NOTHING to make the game stand out in an appealing light...  You guys are worried about one side or the other killing the game?  You should be more worried about every individual playing this game killing it...

I've read this from a few people alrady, but you all do understand that this is just a game, right?  There are real people on the other side of the net that use games like this as a distraction from life, or play just for fun.  Another human being just like yourself who has a life they live, hobbies they enjoy, jobs they work at, people they interact with...a real, true human being.  Yet, every seems to miss that and take things so seriously to a point where we can't even have civil discussions without politics getting in the way.  I haven't been around long enough to know or understand if this kind of talk is the norm, but this kind of behavior shouldn't be acceptable in any form...  Keep it up, and you won't have to worry about either coalition killing the game.  The toxicity of our own words and pointless crap that keeps getting spewed out will do that for us by hindering a potential pathway forward into the future.  If you don't want this game to end up falling apart and dying, there is going to have to be civility or else you might as well just ring the bell of death for this game now...  My two cents.

I totally agree with what you're saying. The issue is this type of thing is what passes for the game's culture. There's never really been a stigma against being overly antagonistic and the forum moderation is rather minimal. This thread would have been closed a long time ago. It's always been people slinging shit at each other and it's not changed. Everyone would need to be a lot less of a tough guy and also not get baited. The problem is this game has always had lax standards in terms of how people post at each other or interact. Trolling people is dismissed as being mere banter and totally not meant, but we all see that negativity ends up pervading the atmosphere. It would require a different mindset from both the staff and the players to engender that civility.

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3 hours ago, alyster said:

I imagine NPO leadership can't sleep at nights. Fear of Chaos rolling them has kept them up. Hence why they post 10 WoT every day each. 

It makes sense that you, and your side in general, don't understand what actual content looks like when you see it.

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13 hours ago, Buorhann said:

I honestly don’t give a damn about winning or losing.  I’ve stated it multiple times, the damage has been done already (in multiple ways).

Yet wont sign peace where they have to admit they lost.

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2 hours ago, Placentica said:

It makes sense that you, and your side in general, don't understand what actual content looks like when you see it.

Spirit of Roqbot is strong in this one. Independent thinking near zero. Good fit for NPO.

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I see we’re back to the old “NPO players aren’t actually players guys they’re just drones” shtick. 

Steve isn’t NPO, and he definitely hasn’t been agreeing with everything Roq’s done. But I mean, it would take giving a shit about what’s been said rather than who said it for this to matter, right? 

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10 hours ago, alyster said:

Spirit of Roqbot is strong in this one. Independent thinking near zero. Good fit for NPO.

We are not allied to NPO, but thanks for the FA advice.  I'll take it very seriously.

So how much are the reps you're going to have to pay for attacking BK/TC and losing?

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16 minutes ago, Placentica said:

So how much are the reps you're going to have to pay for attacking BK/TC and losing?

None, actually.

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2 hours ago, Placentica said:

We are not allied to NPO, but thanks for the FA advice.  I'll take it very seriously.

So how much are the reps you're going to have to pay for attacking BK/TC and losing?

We're the ones receiving the reps, lol

2 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

None, actually.

Quite the shift in rhetoric there :P

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19 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Quite the shift in rhetoric there :P

I have never advocated for reps for BK. 

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22 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

Shady shit? Horsemen wanted to go for it and they did. I'm quite certain tS/HS know our reasons for entering the war/expanding given how we spent some time talking to them regarding the information we have. I mean if you're going to run such a narrative, at least find real issues. The NPO always acts in its best interests and has informed it's allies of its move every step of the way.

You telling us you have no interest in a conflict, was opposite of what we had, and we'd find it hard to believe you when it was literally the middle of the war and in your best interests to not have us intervene. So no, the NPO didn't buy Adrienne's rejection of that conversation and you folk busy trying to spin it as, there was going to be no expansion this war, does not mean you would not hit the N$O in a few months after BKsphere's down. So yeah, we weren't going to wait around again for you to build up in strength if we had to. Made no sense whatsoever, after considering a variety of scenarios. 

Nah you don't, but it comes to down to you had a threat and you dealt with it, and so did we.

Difference in our two "threats".  One became public knowledge by a leak that was admitted and backed up by quite a few moments of suspicious activity (That was also posted in that thread), yours is...   your "word"?

The "word" that Horsemen and Syndicate govs both stated was shit.  Horsemen said you lied to them, Syndicate said you didn't uphold the agreement your respective alliances had.

And that's just the beginning of this conflict.

 

Again, why would anyone trust NPO?

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Difference in our two "threats".  One became public knowledge by a leak that was admitted and backed up by quite a few moments of suspicious activity (That was also posted in that thread), yours is...   your "word"?

The "word" that Horsemen and Syndicate govs both stated was shit.  Horsemen said you lied to them, Syndicate said you didn't uphold the agreement your respective alliances had.

And that's just the beginning of this conflict.

 

Again, why would anyone trust NPO?

It's up to you whether you trust us or not.

Horsemen wrote a dramatic essay and Raoul frequently has embellished stuff for literary purposes in his previous RP posts.  It was sorted out in private that they weren't lied to and we didn't want to air the dirty laundry out here.  As for the Syndicate thing, there were differences in interpretation of the extent of our commitment to their document. There was even disagreement whether it would be binding on HS/NPO.  For Sisyphus it was a big deal to uphold it as he saw his reputation as being on the line and that he had put his and tS' credibility into it, so I could understand why he/they felt that way, but it wasn't as a cut and dry to us in terms of its binding nature and there is the saying "The constitution isn't a suicide pact." I at no point swore off expanding if the circumstances necessitated expanding and it was brought up in-depth that we would do it and why.

I don't really know what you think lying entails but lying for me is saying something false intentionally, which wasn't done in those cases.

Edited by Roquentin
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11 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

please don't evoke my name and my alliance's interests as a way to hand-wave and dismiss legitimate criticism of your alliance

Bruh, that is literally all that happens around here. Welcome to the club, @Nizam Adrienne collects the dues, @Mikey is in charge of the mailing list and I'm your president.

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On 8/25/2019 at 10:06 PM, Sir Scarfalot said:

Quite the shift in rhetoric there :P

Jesus Christ, i enjoy how you think you know anything about what we want. BK never advocated for reps and in fact we decided very early in the war we were not going to. Punitive measures has not even been considered by BK and nor will it. However good try 

 

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This is never going to end unless the losers surrender, which we all know they won't.

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