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How long will this war go on for?


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30 minutes ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

NPO removing roq is pretty much impossible due to a complete absence of popular sovereignty within NPO. It’s close to impossible for an alliance to perform an action which has little to no basis within its own ethos.

Other than maybe Rose, not really aware of any notable alliances someone can become the new leader by popular vote in periodic elections. So either way I don’t think anyone joins expecting to replace Roq. :P

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On 8/16/2019 at 12:37 AM, Shadowthrone said:

Not "fun" wars as your describe, but specific reasoning to war, to politics. Give specific ideological meaning to your action.

@Shadowthrone - Man, those words are pearls! I said about the same thing in a post weeks ago. Going to war over mindless stuff like boredom, fun, or a leader being dissatisfied with their Alliance "war reputation" totally destroys any potential for a rational geopolitical metagame in P&W to even get off the ground.

Dude, ya oughta be in government, if ya aren't already!

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57 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Other than maybe Rose, not really aware of any notable alliances someone can become the new leader by popular vote in periodic elections. So either way I don’t think anyone joins expecting to replace Roq. :P

NPO has elections? Let me guess

Option 1: " o/ NPO"

Option 2: " Hail Pacifica "

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17 minutes ago, alyster said:

NPO has elections? Let me guess

Option 1: " o/ NPO"

Option 2: " Hail Pacifica "

Doubt it, in BK the elections they vote on are purely for lulz. One week I spent as Duke already was above any Senate Position. So would have a pointless to run.

Fark has elections when someone steps down, probably the only times any alliances really decide on new leaders (Other than Rose being the exception here). I first met Roq when Umbrella applied to join The Citadel in CN. Since NPO was unbeaten & hadn’t tasted defeat yet, wanted to shift the dynamic in The Citadel to have more who’d be on my side opposing the hegemony of the day; while screening out any alliances who wanted to join them.

Eventually this worked & my political goals were in alignment with Umbrella when I favored bringing them in. So had a good relationship with Roq and The Citadel back then. Not sure if Shadowthrone ever told me who they were, but since they best remembered me as King of FCC when we were Citadel together; they likely know Roq as far back as 2007 when he was fighting NPO. So while Shadowthrone capable and active; as the name implies I think they prefer being effective support Gov & loyal to Roq. (Kind of support Gov it’s great to have & can make a huge difference when leading in not micro managing as much.)

Edited by Noctis Anarch Caelum
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Well your mistake is assuming that decent alliance like NPO is being run the same way as BK. PnW NPO charter looks similar to CN NPO's. 

https://politicsandwar.fandom.com/wiki/Charter_of_the_New_Pacific_Order

Also why coup Roq? He's as sharp as they come. However look at the others in high gov under him. ?

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1 minute ago, alyster said:

Well your mistake is assuming that decent alliance like NPO is being run the same way as BK. PnW NPO charter looks similar to CN NPO's. 

https://politicsandwar.fandom.com/wiki/Charter_of_the_New_Pacific_Order

Also why coup Roq? He's as sharp as they come. However look at the others in high gov under him. ?

Honestly haven’t looked at the Charter for any alliance I’ve joined this game. (Think maybe the Rose Charter to see how elections worked after someone suggested I join them over making a new alliance when thinking about is only time I’ve looked at one in PnW)

BK was pretty chill. Although rather than do their city builds; I kept it max commerce & did my own. So never could get used to the hive mentality, although when I carelessly raided a Valinor nation who hit Camelot w/o verifying anything; BK attacked to have my back. Me consistently ignoring their city builds got me promoted to Duke of Econ. So I dunno, if I didn’t end up leaving probably could have went Arch Duke eventually. Although high taxes was something I had a hard time getting used to & would have favored lowering or letting people get a lower tax rate if they haven’t got a grant after so long. So that would be the hardest thing for me to get used to in a high tax alliance like NPO.(Even If Roq can probably put the resources of most members to better use)

Although doubt the members care about the meta versus winning. :P

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2 hours ago, Gudea said:

@Shadowthrone - Man, those words are pearls! I said about the same thing in a post weeks ago. Going to war over mindless stuff like boredom, fun, or a leader being dissatisfied with their Alliance "war reputation" totally destroys any potential for a rational geopolitical metagame in P&W to even get off the ground.

Dude, ya oughta be in government, if ya aren't already!

...

If you do talk about politics so much as you suggest, you really already should know who keshav is. 

NPOs 2ic. Meaning if Roq goes we have Keshavbots.

Edited by Akuryo
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3 hours ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Other than maybe Rose, not really aware of any notable alliances someone can become the new leader by popular vote in periodic elections. So either way I don’t think anyone joins expecting to replace Roq. :P

TCW had regular 6 month elections, before back in September 2018 during Felkey's Prime Ministership. Then it was changed so once elected the PM can remain in office as long as they like and new elections are only held if the current PM retires or is impeached with a 66% vote of the Membership and majority of the gov. So tCW's basically an elected autocracy now. 
However TBH I have thought on occasion of bringing back regular elections because I like the debates during the last one, and we've had no problems with it in the past. Although a caveat would be providing some requirements in place for eligible candidates. (IE, minimum membership length, previous gov experience required etc)

2 hours ago, Gudea said:

@Shadowthrone - Man, those words are pearls! I said about the same thing in a post weeks ago. Going to war over mindless stuff like boredom, fun, or a leader being dissatisfied with their Alliance "war reputation" totally destroys any potential for a rational geopolitical metagame in P&W to even get off the ground.

Dude, ya oughta be in government, if ya aren't already!

My reasons were much more than just "war rep", its amusing you guys are still going on about that. Haven't you got new talking points yet?

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15 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

Just saw this, but NPO essentially has my thoughts, albeit less skeptical then my own. No one does anything in this game that doesn't put them further ahead. Those who champion "mini-spheres" or decry how we harm "game health" have an obvious benefit from whatever virtue they extoll.  

I mean this explains a lot. I think as a general rule this is true, but if you treat it like an absolute then I can totally see where your paranoia is coming from. I could also see this being true if you meant that having fun was an obvious benefit, but I don't think that's what you mean. It was pretty clear that many of us just didn't have fun being the hegemonic power else EMC would still be ruling the game.

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Personally when I started playing CN, NPO’s hegemony was so strong & power great enough even speaking out against on OWF could get one rolled. There hegemony so strong it seemed hopeless to beat them, which for me made it challenge. Like defeating the final boss in a video game, so after they were defeated I lost most of my drive after with no enemies worth fighting for Citadel after.

However it took years to get everything in place they could be rolled with a coalition forming w/o NPO knowing; including alliances still in their mega bloc at the time. So I’m used to those on top making it hard for their enemies to take them down as possible. Still getting used to people here expecting the perceived hegemony of the time voluntarily making it easier for their enemies & listening to them. 

This being a perpetual game means alliances can’t win forever; although doesn’t mean they can’t try. I don’t think people should expect their enemies to make things easier for them. If hypothetically IQ says screw the meta, we’re going to try winning with brute force as long as possible. If they can last a year or 2 without getting rolled; it would be highly impressive. Although nothing lasts forever, so not sure if the meta arguments matter at all.

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19 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

Just saw this, but NPO essentially has my thoughts, albeit less skeptical then my own. No one does anything in this game that doesn't put them further ahead. Those who champion "mini-spheres" or decry how we harm "game health" have an obvious benefit from whatever virtue they extoll.  

Pretty funny coming from an individual who plotted with NPO to roll the two smaller spheres after they just got done dogpiling one previously.

Let alone dragging in alliances who had very little, if any, involvement in the current war or previously aided your side.

But continue on about the “game health”.  I’d love to hear more.

Edited by Buorhann
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4 hours ago, Hodor said:

I mean this explains a lot. I think as a general rule this is true, but if you treat it like an absolute then I can totally see where your paranoia is coming from. I could also see this being true if you meant that having fun was an obvious benefit, but I don't think that's what you mean. It was pretty clear that many of us just didn't have fun being the hegemonic power else EMC would still be ruling the game.

I mean I’m pretty sure Roq’s enduring point is that the EMC ties withered, but the relationships stayed intact with a few notable exceptions, Namely T$. To pretend tkr wanted EMC to fall apart is fantasy, and KETOG is a post emc construction. 

5 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Pretty funny coming from an individual who plotted with NPO to roll the two smaller spheres after they just got done dogpiling one previously.

Let alone dragging in alliances who had very little, if any, involvement in the current war or previously aided your side.

But continue on about the “game health”.  I’d love to hear more.

This reads like you didn’t even read the logs. There was no plan only inquires of interest same to what everyone on your side did as well. I think it’s been made pretty clear Sphinx had at the absolute best an extremely optimistic view. 

Mall alliances dragged in have concrete ties to those who have started an aggressive war against us. Just as valid as the aligned but not involved people you hit. 

I have never once used game health as an argument to conduct actions in a certain way. While people may dislike it my words have been pretty consistent.  It seems you missed the quotations on it, as it is what your side has pushed for since Knightfall to varying degrees. 

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10 hours ago, Akuryo said:

...

If you do talk about politics so much as you suggest, you really already should know who keshav is. 

NPOs 2ic. Meaning if Roq goes we have Keshavbots.

Where in my post did I suggest that I "talk about politics so much"?

Ah. Now I know who Keshav is: NPO's 2nd. in Command. Actually, I haven't got a clue who almost any Alliance leaders are, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is what I said in my post.

@Sphinx - "My reasons were much more than just "war rep", its amusing you guys are still going on about that. Haven't you got new talking points yet?"

That's what the allegedly leaked log I read said, man. I wasn't "going on about it", nor did I bring it up as a "talking point", but as an example. Correct?

The point @Shadowthrone made about having a rational geopolitical metagame was obviously lost.

OK.

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9 hours ago, Hodor said:

I mean this explains a lot. I think as a general rule this is true, but if you treat it like an absolute then I can totally see where your paranoia is coming from. I could also see this being true if you meant that having fun was an obvious benefit, but I don't think that's what you mean. It was pretty clear that many of us just didn't have fun being the hegemonic power else EMC would still be ruling the game.

I believe you when you say but it definitely isn't 100% applicable to everyone you're including in EMC from what has been available to the outside view. You did join Hogwarts and Partisan did try to do stuff but he didn't have as much political capital without the statistical base he had with tS and his scheming usually got his old friends to be against him as they were comfortable with what they had. With say Rose, it was made clear to me that their split was primarily in reaction to being leery of what Kayser was trying to do and that they  trusted Lordship 100% and wanted to work with him for a while.  You know what happened to Kayser.

Under Durmij/Sketchy, Rose had consolidated EMC by signing Guardian when Mensa disbanded and signing TFP. abbas/redarmy did the split and it kept enough third party links and they had helped a few alliances prep ahead of the AC war and a lot of it was facilitated via old connections. There was distrust definitely between some of them at that point, but it was mainly reacting to each other from my perspective. Buorhann had been one of the main opponents of splits beforehand as well.  With Sketchy doing TGH later on and changing the way he did things, I think it's possible he might have felt he had a responsibility to play it safe with Rose but that he'd have everyone going to TGH knowing what they were going into and TGH had pooled together a lot of EMC people. As far as GOB/Guardian go they seemed fairly parochial in their desires to maintain the grouping they had. 

It's totally possible they converted 100% but a lot of the time from the outside  it seems like you're(the group) sort of the predatory carebears where you want the minispheres so you can do rollings of people utilizing the advantages you do have but not having the attrition aspect of longer wars. That's a long with the problematic Rose alumni dynamic that kicked back in, adding people who basically would be untouchable with that taken into account, ties to arrgh, and the bromance with TKR. It basically looks like minispheres are a way for you to moralize your way into gerrymandering divisions to your favor. I"m just saying this is the external perception, just as everyone saw what we did as a hegemonic power play attempt to kill everyone off and dominate.

 

5 hours ago, Buorhann said:

Pretty funny coming from an individual who plotted with NPO to roll the two smaller spheres after they just got done dogpiling one previously.

Let alone dragging in alliances who had very little, if any, involvement in the current war or previously aided your side.

But continue on about the “game health”.  I’d love to hear more.

lol at first par. 

I mean some of the ones hit had actually left the war to spite us and then pulled some slot stuff.

ND0nROR.jpg

d2Bpw0Q.jpg

 

 

But yeah he didn't say he was highlighting it. All I see is one side making bold proclamations and demands when it happens to have the upper hand.

Edited by Roquentin
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14 hours ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Other than maybe Rose, not really aware of any notable alliances someone can become the new leader by popular vote in periodic elections. So either way I don’t think anyone joins expecting to replace Roq. :P

I said popular sovereignty, I didn't mention democracy or elections. The two aren't automatically synonymous after all unless you apply it strictly in a modern sense which has little relative bearing upon PnW given alliances are a poor comparison to modern nation states.

 

Edited by Charles the Tyrant

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1 minute ago, CandyShi said:

When you say "some slot stuff" it sounds like multiple slots, but it was a SINGULAR treasure transfer. 

Do you always try to assert the reasoning behind other people's actions? 

Are you psychoanalyzing the "upvote" button now?

Are you psychic? Can you read minds? Are there additional logs that you are withholding?  Because if we look at actions all we see are:

 

An alliance that has "Pacifists" in its name pulling out of a war.

Said alliance buying a treasure from another alliance (the transfer-er very clearly indicating it in his/her war declaration). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Their gov hit for it when it wasn't needed when the nation was actively fighting other people. They were stand off ish. They peaced out on FR peacing out and our entry was given as the reason for FR peacing. It's not a huge leap to make.  When their high gov are the ones doing it, it's not the same as just one lone individual with no gov status.

I don't need to psychoanalyze it. I don't think he upvoted it because he likes Keegoz's avatar and signature all of a sudden. He was the only person on our side to upvote it. it was a clear shot at us. Normally if someone enters a war on the side you are on, you don't upvote a post shitting on them for doing it and pretty much saying they'll be screwed if they don't win. It has no logical basis.

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2 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Their gov hit for it when it wasn't needed when the nation was actively fighting other people. They were stand off ish. They peaced out on FR peacing out and our entry was given as the reason for FR peacing. It's not a huge leap to make.  When their high gov are the ones doing it, it's not the same as just one lone individual with no gov status.

I don't need to psychoanalyze it. I don't think he upvoted it because he likes Keegoz's avatar and signature all of a sudden. He was the only person on our side to upvote it. it was a clear shot at us. Normally if someone enters a war on the side you are on, you don't upvote a post shitting on them for doing it and pretty much saying they'll be screwed if they don't win. It has no logical basis.

This is, without a doubt, out of everything I've ever seen you type on the OWF so far in regards to this war, the MOST Stalin-level paranoid post I've seen. You're using an upvote... on a forum post... on this forum... as... what? An attempt to further validate pulling them back into the war? There is no need to psychoanalyze it, you're right, but you went and did it anyway. "You don't upvote a post shitting on..." Please. Just. Why?

Even if they did leave the war to "spite you" that's more indicative that people, not just the other side, think what you did was shady as shit. Regardless, We've done this song and dance already.

If the upvote button on the forums is now valid CB, we might as well turn this whole thing into a free for all.

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3 hours ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

I said popular sovereignty, I didn't mention democracy or elections. The two aren't automatically synonymous after all unless you apply it strictly in a modern sense which has little relative bearing upon PnW given alliances are a poor comparison to modern nation states.

Well, even Wikipedia immediately ties popular sovereignty in with elections at the start.

Popular sovereignty is the principle that the authority of a state and its government are created and sustained by the consent of its people, through their elected representatives (Rule by the People), who is the source of all political power.”

Pretty much joining alliances with leaders they’re willing to agree with is pretty much the only way people can give consent to government with no elections, although not sure why so many would agree to be under 100% taxes if Roq didn’t have popular support among them though. If Roq landed them into a unpopular losing war, there might be a bigger risk of internal problems. :P

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"Everyone saw what we did as hegemonic"

You're not exactly giving anyone a single reason to think they're wrong by spawning in 241 nation's with a referral code pinging everyone on a 30k member discord server, sending money to build them up, and then saying "this is the first wave".

If you're gonna do that though at least make a sphere of nothing but NPO that still numbers however many at that point.

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11 hours ago, Aragorn, son of Arathorn said:

I mean I’m pretty sure Roq’s enduring point is that the EMC ties withered, but the relationships stayed intact with a few notable exceptions, Namely T$. To pretend tkr wanted EMC to fall apart is fantasy, and KETOG is a post emc construction. 

Yea, relationships endure in these games. That's why a lot of people play them. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, especially since these relationships remain, but the allegiances of the IG alliances are relatively fluid. I think minispheres would've had this benefit as well. The more people you interact with in this game, the easier it is to humanize them. I would put forward that is part of the reason there isn't much animosity to be found in TGH towards TKR anymore, nor towards the remnants of TRF in Valinor. We'd had relationships, however peripheral, in many cases to these people in the past and so it was easier to call it water under the bridge at a certain point. Frankly, I wish BK had maintained its relationships.
 

6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

I believe you when you say but it definitely isn't 100% applicable to everyone you're including in EMC from what has been available to the outside view. You did join Hogwarts and Partisan did try to do stuff but he didn't have as much political capital without the statistical base he had with tS and his scheming usually got his old friends to be against him as they were comfortable with what they had. With say Rose, it was made clear to me that their split was primarily in reaction to being leery of what Kayser was trying to do and that they  trusted Lordship 100% and wanted to work with him for a while.  You know what happened to Kayser.

Under Durmij/Sketchy, Rose had consolidated EMC by signing Guardian when Mensa disbanded and signing TFP. abbas/redarmy did the split and it kept enough third party links and they had helped a few alliances prep ahead of the AC war and a lot of it was facilitated via old connections. There was distrust definitely between some of them at that point, but it was mainly reacting to each other from my perspective. Buorhann had been one of the main opponents of splits beforehand as well.  With Sketchy doing TGH later on and changing the way he did things, I think it's possible he might have felt he had a responsibility to play it safe with Rose but that he'd have everyone going to TGH knowing what they were going into and TGH had pooled together a lot of EMC people. As far as GOB/Guardian go they seemed fairly parochial in their desires to maintain the grouping they had. 

It's totally possible they converted 100% but a lot of the time from the outside  it seems like you're(the group) sort of the predatory carebears where you want the minispheres so you can do rollings of people utilizing the advantages you do have but not having the attrition aspect of longer wars. That's a long with the problematic Rose alumni dynamic that kicked back in, adding people who basically would be untouchable with that taken into account, ties to arrgh, and the bromance with TKR. It basically looks like minispheres are a way for you to moralize your way into gerrymandering divisions to your favor. I"m just saying this is the external perception, just as everyone saw what we did as a hegemonic power play attempt to kill everyone off and dominate.

Oh for sure, I would never claim players like Partisan aren't nearly always acting in a manner that will be advantageous to themselves, but I was saying it cannot be taken as an absolute and I think the former gov members of EMC in this thread are good examples of that.

As for the relationships aspect, I addressed it above. It also follows that we've been playing the game for a long time, and as I mentioned the cyclical nature of allegiances above, we've all been on one side or the other multiple times and know the song and dance. We're bored of it and our collective experience drives us to want to change it. I think in many ways we did do a disservice to the game when NPO joined and you were immediately ostracized and targeted (CN is just such a textbook case of near unbreakable hegemony), but I echo that there have been opportunities to put that behind us.

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29 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

"Everyone saw what we did as hegemonic"

You're not exactly giving anyone a single reason to think they're wrong by spawning in 241 nation's with a referral code pinging everyone on a 30k member discord server, sending money to build them up, and then saying "this is the first wave".

If you're gonna do that though at least make a sphere of nothing but NPO that still numbers however many at that point.

I was kind of curious about this, but guess they joined over from some light novel site someone has & it sort of spontaneously happened. Who knows how many will stick around, although not sure how it’s a bad thing if they did bring another online community to the game & being friendly with them.

My thoughts were more the lines of being impressed they managed to get that many to join legit in such a short time. :P 

Think if others can get large amounts of players to join from other communities; they should also probably take advantage of a situation where they can bring new people to game. (Also regardless of their initial landing spot, who knows where most who stay will end up long term anyways. 

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6 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

I was kind of curious about this, but guess they joined over from some light novel site someone has & it sort of spontaneously happened. Who knows how many will stick around, although not sure how it’s a bad thing if they did bring another online community to the game & being friendly with them.

My thoughts were more the lines of being impressed they managed to get that many to join legit in such a short time. :P 

Think if others can get large amounts of players to join from other communities; they should also probably take advantage of a situation where they can bring new people to game. (Also regardless of their initial landing spot, who knows where most who stay will end up long term anyways. 

You have a very sunny outlook on what is obviously a very bleak landscape. XD.

I'm all for bringing in new blood to the game, but they could have done this at any other time since they've been here but chose to flash a 241 strong brand new alliance under the NPO banner during a war. It makes this look more to me like a scare tactic than an attempt community enhancement.

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10 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

I was kind of curious about this, but guess they joined over from some light novel site someone has & it sort of spontaneously happened. Who knows how many will stick around, although not sure how it’s a bad thing if they did bring another online community to the game & being friendly with them.

My thoughts were more the lines of being impressed they managed to get that many to join legit in such a short time. :P 

Think if others can get large amounts of players to join from other communities; they should also probably take advantage of a situation where they can bring new people to game. (Also regardless of their initial landing spot, who knows where most who stay will end up long term anyways. 

It's not necessarily a bad thing to bring in hundreds of new players like that, but I question it's benefit to the games health when they all go to not even the same sphere but the same alliance.

Which is why as I said on the PW discord, I sincerely hope most of them diaspora either u to their own alliances or across the game to explore the world as it were. Especially if there are more 'waves'.

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