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How long will this war go on for?


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3 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

We fought previous allies.  Multiple times.

Even agreed to have support sent your coalitions way.

You can keep harping about distrust and bring up the past, but again - actions say otherwise.

>BK were the only ones willing to work with you

Uh, yeah...  this is bullshit

You should ask around.  You may be able to get something.

Which allies did you fight? I don't remember TGH having allies. I mean the closest to an ally TGH might have had is Rose and I've never seen that possibility be entertained. Or do you just mean the bloc as a whole?  The offers predate the hit on Chaos and there was an agreement between Chaos and KETOG to unify vs BK if the situation came up.

Our timeline is different on the only BK being willing to work with us thing. I'm referring to a much earlier period.

I've admitted outright that people in your sphere and some others were willing to work with us earlier this year on the proviso that we hit BK as part of their effort. I've pointed out that objections to it were raised as we didn't feel we'd get anything out of doing it. The concerns about the upper tier consolidation were seen as trivial and weren't addressed. It's basically I pointed out in my post the issues with us being the meatshield or tank in a war vs BK as it just means we both take the infra damage we'd ordinarily take anyway while stirring up resentment, while everyone else has a relative picnic. So in that everyone who gets to stay high and keep infra wins, while we're doing the patrol duty for the entirety of the conflict and have to deal with the potential risk of reprisal.

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2 hours ago, Roquentin said:

...  and there was an agreement between Chaos and KETOG to unify vs BK if the situation came up.

Since everyone seems to be too sensitive when people use the words "liar" or "lies", I will just state that this is 100% untrue...
... unless you are talking about this: The only suggestion (and not really agreement) that was made between KETOG and Chaos during our war was that we would stop fighting each other in case an outsider was to try and intervene in the said war. Which kinda happened, and that's why we are all here.

2 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Our timeline is different on the only BK being willing to work with us thing. I'm referring to a much earlier period. I've admitted outright that people in your sphere and some others were willing to work with us earlier this year on the proviso that we hit BK as part of their effort.

Regarding the offers/help that you never got, TEst and CoS had agreed to protect you and t$ when N$O was to form (supposedly, after the previous war, as it was agreed between you, Partisan, Prefontain and I). Plenty of alliances have given you chances and made more than one leaps of faith for you. And we never asked you to hit BK.

---------------------------------------------------

Regarding your previous posts about "trust issues" you supposedly have against Chaos, I know there are none. You are focusing on TKR on purpose, since you have enough bad history with them and can sell the story about them telling lies untrue things by mentioning past events, etc. See though, Chaos has 3 more members. SK, Soup and CoS. For Soup, you cannot know a lot of things, but for CoS and SK...
... we literally fought side by side at the previous war for months and have talked for hours. You've seen how CoS and SK work, what our vision is, how we behave towards allies, temporary allies and even enemies.

So, I am confident that you trust our word. Still, if you have reasons to not trust our word, I would love some logs and screenshots (preferably not from 6 months ago).

 

Edit: To stay on the topic of the thread. "I give it 2 weeks". :v

Edited by Ripper
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They’re focusing on TKR because it’s easy for them to do so.  Their original plan was to hit KETOG with Syndicate and House Stark, but that got messed up due to Kayser going inactive and not letting the govs know on that particular plan.

NPO gov was pressuring Syndicate over to hit KETOG.  So there was a compromise made where they’d just hit Guardian/Grumpy.  Mostly because Syndicate didn’t want to be used as pawns to protect NPOs precious connection to BK.  Thinking that they were their own little sphere and not some major frickyuge cluster of IQ 2.0.

But here we are.  NPO has yet to show anything of substance about TKR, other than what Dio posted.  Which anybody with half a mind would know it’s complete bullshit.

Their involvement is nothing but lies.  Anybody who wants to put their trust in them in the future will see it themselves eventually.

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3 hours ago, Ripper said:

Since everyone seems to be too sensitive when people use the words "liar" or "lies", I will just state that this is 100% untrue...
... unless you are talking about this: The only suggestion (and not really agreement) that was made between KETOG and Chaos during our war was that we would stop fighting each other in case an outsider was to try and intervene in the said war. Which kinda happened, and that's why we are all here.

Regarding the offers/help that you never got, TEst and CoS had agreed to protect you and t$ when N$O was to form (supposedly, after the previous war, as it was agreed between you, Partisan, Prefontain and I). Plenty of alliances have given you chances and made more than one leaps of faith for you. And we never asked you to hit BK.

---------------------------------------------------

Regarding your previous posts about "trust issues" you supposedly have against Chaos, I know there are none. You are focusing on TKR on purpose, since you have enough bad history with them and can sell the story about them telling lies untrue things by mentioning past events, etc. See though, Chaos has 3 more members. SK, Soup and CoS. For Soup, you cannot know a lot of things, but for CoS and SK...
... we literally fought side by side at the previous war for months and have talked for hours. You've seen how CoS and SK work, what our vision is, how we behave towards allies, temporary allies and even enemies.

So, I am confident that you trust our word. Still, if you have reasons to not trust our word, I would love some logs and screenshots (preferably not from 6 months ago).

 

Edit: To stay on the topic of the thread. "I give it 2 weeks". :v

I'm going to clarify once more: I was referring to a different timeline with the not getting help thing. It was that when we previously had to fight and orient everything around fight against BK, no one was interested in helping us until BK itself turned the page.  You're confusing the two statements. The Partisan/Prefontaine/You thing is much later on but before the cancellations. It's also not a good example to use for trust as people did not keep confidence and I got the nasty surprise of finding out a bunch of people and their moms knew about it the entire time. I made the Faustian bargain to beat the TKR/TCW/Guardian/GOB group and Partisan disappeared and Prefontaine retired, so it had to be delayed a while to reconcile it with that reality.

The efforts to cooperate I was referring to were post-split and they're the ones both sides have been talking about.  I didn't trust Chaos because it was a bloc born of hostility and immediate plotting against prior coalition partners over perceived grievances. We have plenty of negative history and lack of trust  with SK and CoS especially given who is in charge now. TKR is probably not the most suspicious alliance in there since at least I know they're just doing whatever they feel it takes to win like making up with KT/TGH in order to restore themselves. I haven't really talked to anyone in Chaos since the cancellations for the most part. I gave my full list of reasons for not trusting most of the alliances in Chaos over a month ago. The previous plot to roll NPO/BK  wasn't exactly a well kept secret. We had propositions from two other "groupings" about rolling BK and those were the only attempts to cooperate with us post-split. Neither of them was relayed and  it was pretty obvious that's what they had wanted to do anyway.

 

26 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

They’re focusing on TKR because it’s easy for them to do so.  Their original plan was to hit KETOG with Syndicate and House Stark, but that got messed up due to Kayser going inactive and not letting the govs know on that particular plan.

NPO gov was pressuring Syndicate over to hit KETOG.  So there was a compromise made where they’d just hit Guardian/Grumpy.  Mostly because Syndicate didn’t want to be used as pawns to protect NPOs precious connection to BK.  Thinking that they were their own little sphere and not some major frickyuge cluster of IQ 2.0.

But here we are.  NPO has yet to show anything of substance about TKR, other than what Dio posted.  Which anybody with half a mind would know it’s complete bullshit.

Their involvement is nothing but lies.  Anybody who wants to put their trust in them in the future will see it themselves eventually.

So um, where exactly are you getting this? You're basically saying a complete lie and there's no real way to justify this.

There was a consensus on hitting KETOG until the Rainbow leak was posted.  All three govs agreed to it. I did  not originally propose KETOG as the target for the mini-sphere when it was decided months prior. This is impossible to deny. It wasn't a secret plot with Kayser. They didn't want to do it after the Rainbow leak happened and KETOG/Chaos declared on Cov/BK  as they didn't want to do an action that would imply we were a unified whole with BK/Cov and the Grumpy/Guardian thing was an alternative.

It's good to know there's no basis for peace with TGH now.

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6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Another Long Bloc of Text 

I'm just saying, but bro if every one of your posts requires a 3+ paragraph defense of your actions and logic, don't you think something is up?

The Science is Pretty Clear.

But anyways I appreciate the vocabulary and complex sentences, so carry on.

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3 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

I'm just saying, but bro if every one of your posts requires a 3+ paragraph defense of your actions and logic, don't you think something is up?

The Science is Pretty Clear.

But anyways I appreciate the vocabulary and complex sentences, so carry on.

The justifications are for sake of argument and offering a counter-narrative to the prominent shared perspectives of the KERCHTOGG which dominate the forums.  I could just boil it down to troll responses like "kid" or "No." or just say I did it for fun if I wanted to cut down on verbiage.

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I think it’s really weird how you have reasons for not trusting literally every single alliance in the game. So quick question:

 

What major alliance that you’re fighting against, do you actually trust? 

 

Stipulation: You must have had lengthy or semi-lengthy discussions with them. Not just someone you’re fighting against.

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2 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

I'm just saying, but bro if every one of your posts requires a 3+ paragraph defense of your actions and logic, don't you think something is up?

The Science is Pretty Clear.

But anyways I appreciate the vocabulary and complex sentences, so carry on.

This is a textbased game, not an oral one. Also, more importantly, you're making up a claim that isn't supported by your source. I'd recommend reading up on Gish-gallop which is a well known and controversial debate tactic simply because debunking lies takes longer to do than to say a lie.

 

Take your pseudo-scientific nonsense out of here so we can get back to real big news which is the fact that roq is starting to agree with me. 

Edited by Malal

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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1 hour ago, Malal said:

This is a textbased game, not an oral one. Also, more importantly, you're making up a claim that isn't supported by your source. I'd recommend reading up on Gish-gallop which is a well known and controversial debate tactic simply because debunking lies takes longer to do than to say a lie.

 

Take your pseudo-scientific nonsense out of here so we can get back to real big news which is the fact that roq is starting to agree with me. 

I mean I can lift the quote "A new technique that separates truth from lies finds it takes about 30 percent longer to fib."  

 

Anyways the best way to debunk a lie is show evidence to the contrary.  As of yet all we have is hearsay and unsubstantiated claims, so independent of all of our biases that isn't a way to justify a claim.  Though, I think you're missing the point, it's that if roquentin had this rock-solid claim and evidence it wouldn't take paragraphs to explain.  This is basically a corollary of occam's razor: the simplest solution is the likeliest solution.

 

Addendum (Edit):

And the fact that ya'll publicly attack Adrienne for being a liar is outrageous and unbecoming of alliance leaders/government.  It's one thing to dispute facts and argue about whose side is righteous, but to go ad hominem (albeit IC) is uncalled for in this case.  If anyone has the audacity to call out @Nizam Adrienne (who I interact with more than all of you), then you ought to be showing the evidence because she's more transparent than literally everyone else on these forums.  I'm sorry, but this has to be said lest these forums devolved into some post-fact trumpian concoction.  We are better than this.

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6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

I'm going to clarify once more: I was referring to a different timeline with the not getting help thing. It was that when we previously had to fight and orient everything around fight against BK,

no one was interested in helping us until BK itself turned the page.

I think I wasn't even around at that time, so you are talking about something that happened... 3 years ago or so? How is that relevant with anything?
Maybe you should learn from BK and turn the page too.

6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

1. It's also not a good example to use for trust as people did not keep confidence and I got the nasty surprise of finding out a bunch of people and their moms knew about it the entire time.

2. I made the Faustian bargain to beat the TKR/TCW/Guardian/GOB group and Partisan disappeared and Prefontaine retired, so it had to be delayed a while to reconcile it with that reality.

1. So, that made you not want to ally t$ (since they didn't keep confidence) which resulted in you... signing t$? Or you are accusing just Pre and me specifically for leaking things?

2. Well, thanks for your sacrifice, Roq. I am sure you didn't want to hit TKR et al. t$/CoS/TEst made you sell your soul to the devil. :v
Leaving jokes aside, can you explain what's the good and what's the bad part of the deal? If the bad part is signing t$... well you still did it.

6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

I didn't trust Chaos because it was a bloc born of hostility and immediate plotting against prior coalition partners over perceived grievances.

I don't remember something like this in our DoW. 2 of its members literally fought beside you at the previous global war. No idea what you are talking about here.

6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

We have plenty of negative history and lack of trust  with SK and CoS especially given who is in charge now.

Nonsese. Who is mixing up the timelones now? Whatever you have against Bezzers, he became leader during this very war, a month ago.

6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

TKR is probably not the most suspicious alliance in there since at least I know they're just doing whatever they feel it takes to win like making up with KT/TGH in order to restore themselves.

I am lost here. Are you talking about the previous conflict between Chaos and KETOG? If yes, do explain to me this plan of "restoration".

6 hours ago, Roquentin said:

The previous plot to roll NPO/BK  wasn't exactly a well kept secret.

Oh Roq. The previous plot was not to roll NPO/BK. It was to roll IQ (for CoS at least, that was the case in case you were to not keep your word for the split). You did make the split though. Well, at least technically. From what we got from t$ during this global though, you decided to keep secret ties with them anyway. :v

Edited by Ripper
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On 8/10/2019 at 5:35 AM, Roquentin said:

Talking about a merged FA department is real rich when BK was originally silent, people like Mikey were saying we were worse people OOC because we were using guile and lying while BK was just signing a lot of treaties. It's also rich when your side has been a combination of drum circles and pitchfork groups pumping each other up the entire war despite so-called differences with stuff like Buorhann gushing over TKR's ability to statpad on the radio and just countless examples of everyone always upvoting each other.

I don't believe I have ever made an OOC comment about anybody in this game. Not everyone blurs the lines between what happens on the screen and outside of it. I believe I know which post you are referring to, and although a lot of that was just rhetorical flourish because the conversation was going nowhere, I did indeed call you lairs. Given repeated claims of 'proof' of Chaos plotting against you from deleted logs of unknown sources that are directly contradicted by my own personal experience as someone with access to to our planning, I stand by that. OOC I don't have any judgements and have no reason to distrust any statements not related to PW. But while I don't think in-game action is a good judge of character, I do believe it a good judge of the characters we choose to play. My trust towards said characters has admittedly lessened since your entry into the war.

10 hours ago, Roquentin said:

We have plenty of negative history and lack of trust  with SK

Do we? I never heard the radio show you mentioned, but aside from that one post-war rant, I can't really think of any other interactions. Obviously one of our recent interactions have been cordial, but that is all in the context of your entry into this war. We attacked your sphere in AC, true. I guess if attacking one of two existing spheres in the game one time is the pattern of hostility to go off, we're pretty boned FA wise because I can't think of anybody who doesn't have a CB against us now.

Maybe Squeegee really didn't trust you, I don't know. It never came up because you weren't on the radar - ironically from our perspective,you were a non-hostile alliance with no real negative history to be concerned with. I probably would have pushed for a round 2 against KETOG later to see if we could actually put up a good fight. But we were far to busy dealing with shambolic internals to be plotting anything, let alone people we did not, at the time, consider a problem.

Edited by Mikey
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Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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9 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

I mean I can lift the quote "A new technique that separates truth from lies finds it takes about 30 percent longer to fib."  

"The computer-based analysis, reported in The Times of London, showed that British test subjects took 1.2 seconds on average to speak reality in recent tests, while prevarications took 1.8 seconds"

 

Now how about you sit down and shut up like spaceman "TC is literally ruining the game" thrax

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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1 hour ago, Ripper said:

Why so hostile? Did they hurt you? :P

Nah, you'll know they finally hurt me when I rebuild to 3k infra per city in the middle of the war in order to escape their submarine strats...

wait a minute ?

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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2 hours ago, Malal said:

The computer-based analysis, reported in The Times of London, showed that British test subjects took 1.2 seconds on average to speak reality in recent tests, while prevarications took 1.8 seconds"

 

Now how about you sit down and shut up like spaceman "TC is literally ruining the game" thrax

This is now becoming cancer, but prevarication means lie and 1.8 - 1.2 = 0.6 while 0.6 / 1.8 ~ 0.3 or 30%.

 

Also, hands off my homie thrax.

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6 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

This is now becoming cancer, but prevarication means lie and 1.8 - 1.2 = 0.6 while 0.6 / 1.8 ~ 0.3 or 30%.

 

Also, hands off my homie thrax.

Good sir, do so I hope that was not some kind of a threat.

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20 hours ago, Ripper said:

Regarding the offers/help that you never got, TEst and CoS had agreed to protect you and t$ when N$O was to form (supposedly, after the previous war, as it was agreed between you, Partisan, Prefontain and I). Plenty of alliances have given you chances and made more than one leaps of faith for you. And we never asked you to hit BK.

BaggyFittingAmericanbadger-size_restrict

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1 hour ago, Cooper_ said:

This is now becoming cancer, but prevarication means lie and 1.8 - 1.2 = 0.6 while 0.6 / 1.8 ~ 0.3 or 30%.

 

Also, hands off my homie thrax.

Okay, so I bolded, italisised, and underlinded the keyword "speak." You're not daft, just purposely refusing to accept you were wrong and want to keep trying to argue a point so you look good in front of your allies, no matter how stupid.

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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5 hours ago, Malal said:

Nah, you'll know they finally hurt me when I rebuild to 3k infra per city in the middle of the war in order to escape their submarine strats...

wait a minute ?

Said the coalition that sold their infra to avoid the downdeclare strats? :v

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21 hours ago, Roquentin said:

TKR is probably not the most suspicious alliance in there since at least I know they're just doing whatever they feel it takes to win like making up with KT/TGH in order to restore themselves.

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29 minutes ago, Ripper said:

Said the coalition that sold their infra to avoid the downdeclare strats? :v

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=59307 Ripper's nation link for the people who missed the targeted call out. As the self-appointed representative from memesphere, I wholly endorse all our enemies rebuying to 3k infra this very instant. For the low, low price of $1,616,475,081.60 (assuming a 10% discount) you get another week of life and we get a more efficient way of removing a billion from your rebuild potential, everyone wins!

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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15 hours ago, Ripper said:

 

I think I wasn't even around at that time, so you are talking about something that happened... 3 years ago or so? How is that relevant with anything?
Maybe you should learn from BK and turn the page too.

This is really indicative of one of the main problems with the game. If you look at basically ever major alliance in the game you will see consistent leadership changes (Rose, tS, BK, etc) that often bring political change with them (partisan bringing tS into knightfall, Curu helping form IQ etc).

How can anybody expect the political meta of this game to change when the largest alliance in this game has had the same leader forever, continually brings up grudges from 3 years ago and continually attacks the same alliances? 

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3 minutes ago, Smith said:

This is really indicative of one of the main problems with the game. If you look at basically ever major alliance in the game you will see consistent leadership changes (Rose, tS, BK, etc) that often bring political change with them (partisan bringing tS into knightfall, Curu helping form IQ etc).

How can anybody expect the political meta of this game to change when the largest alliance in this game has had the same leader forever, continually brings up grudges from 3 years ago and continually attacks the same alliances? 

While I appreciate the shoutout, I don't recall TKR being nearly as supportive at the time (or in the two years that followed) of the political change that I brought with me.  Thanks for the belated affirmation though I guess?  I sure hope this isn't retconning history to try to score present day political points though.

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