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How long will this war go on for?


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58 minutes ago, Malal said:

Because everyone knows the best way to farm likes is by attacking the more forum active half of the game; you're a genius you know that? The truth is that I've only posted one image in the past month because the problem is why should I waste my time making good content when your coalition is to busy being hypocritical and inconsistent to post any of your own.

Uh, what?  Are you blind or something?

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7 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

First, I'm not disputing the fact we have more whales, @Malal.  Stop being a dumbass.

I'm looking for his explanation as to why it matters.

 

7 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

First, I'm not disputing the fact we have more whales, @Malal.  Stop being a dumbass.

I'm looking for his explanation as to why it matters.

I mean, you guys were pretty screwed over till N$O intervention.  Didn't even put up much of a fight till then.

Let's not try to play down the fact that the distraction from N$O allowed you folks to reorganize.

>Stop being a dumbass.

>I'm looking for his explanation as to why it matters.

You're calling @Malal a dumbass, while trying to find my explanation for why it matters. Goddamn, I can smell it, the hypocrisy is real... 

It's obvious that it matters. Whales count way more, since they have more infra and more troops. We outnumber you badly in lower tiers, but you have better stats than us, and this is only due to your whales. Ok yeah, there's the fact that we had max infra while yours got destroyed in Surf's Up, but whatever.

And if you didn't know, N$O's intervention did help us, but what happened was going to happen no matter what. 

We had infra, and you didn't. If we had as much infra as you, we wouldn't be losing, at least not buy that much. Now that we have no infra left, just like you, we're coming back. There's nothig more obvious. I feel like I'm talking to a wall or to a child right now. Everything that I'm saying is obvious, but it seems that you just don't understand it. You don't even need common sense for this.

You had more whales. Whales matter more. 

We had more infra. It boosted our score for no reason and made our war stats worst. 

You can try to argue this as much as you want, but you'll fail no matter what. You won't win. You can't win. (If you didn't understand, I'm talking about the argument and the war ?)

And if there's a dumbass here, it's you.

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3 hours ago, Roquentin said:

How exactly are we having hegemonic ambitions? How do any of the things we did put us in a position of primary influence and dominance? We went in knowing people would make hay over it and tar and feather us and it would cost us a lot of political capital, but it was seen as better than letting the scenario we feared play out.  The typical larger coalition that had many inexperienced alliances not being able to outpace the nimble one with more elite players was just another version of  Paracov vs Syndisphere playing out for the umpteenth time and we didn't really want to happen as it would drastically imbalance things and put us in a position where we'd not have many options.  The only thing we've really done that could be construed as hegemonic is the fact we've been heavy-handed on micros for beiging, but the issue only rises after trying to get through to them diplomatically. As many players in micro just have no real knowledge of the meta-game and so don't want to compromise their pixels, it has to be a worse proposition for them to beige than not to beige.

Oh I don't know Roq.

You had a secret alliance with the sphere you supposedly broke from while you both were the two largest groupings.

You backstabbed your own ally to defend your former ally.

You had your narratives for hitting GOB/Guardian prepared and ready before we ever hit BK. (And they were bullshit)

You were in talks with BKsphere about hitting us.

You only enforce your arbitrary "balancing attempts" on people not called BK. Apparently BK with their 900 nations hitting Chaos isn't worthy of your benevolent intervention. No you'd rather hit KETOGG instead. Which is why your attempt to retroactively justify your shit with "it was just to keep balance" falls flat. 

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1 hour ago, Dad said:

Nah you're right. And it's not even close. 

This misses a few guys in bank AAs on both sides because I'm lazy, but you can get the general picture.

image.png.bd65836750d829b074bbf1320a9de681.pngimage.png.907ecdf927e157b4ea86653daa0365cb.png

That's 2.41x as many nations at 21+ and 7.4x as many at 30+

It evens out a bit if we go down to C20 since NPO is tiered there, with 218 in Coalition B, to Coalition A's 270. And it gets way worse if you go up to C25 with just 34 nations in Coalition B having 25 or more cities, in comparison to the 121 nations in Coalition B who are at that level. In fact, Coalition A has more nations at 30+ than Coalition B has at 25+.

And what this picture fails to show is the 300+ nations you have sitting right below that at 20 cities.

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1 hour ago, Nizam Adrienne said:

And what this picture fails to show is the 300+ nations you have sitting right below that at 20 cities.

And you failed to understand that we're talking about whales. 20 cities is big, but it's not the whale tier... 

EDIT:

Oof, I just saw that you weren't even right about us having more 20 cities... That's kinda tough, ngl.

Edited by Durand
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21 minutes ago, Nizam Adrienne said:

And what this picture fails to show is the 300+ nations you have sitting right below that at 20 cities.

I literally wrote about that in the text you quoted without reading. It's 218:270 in Coalition A's favour at 20 cities. And we have 121 nations at C20, not 300+. But this conversation was about whales, and so I probably should have presented the initial data at 25+ anyway. Which, if you bother to read the text you quoted shows a roughly 7:2 advantage for Coalition A.

 

Edit: Since I'm bored here you go.

image.png.8e9dd7d5d5eaf90f75ea794b829849a7.png

21+ was actually a more balanced picture than the real upper tier.

Edited by Dad
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5 minutes ago, Madden8021 said:

Hmmm, good point and yeah, no one can hide forever, they'll be captured, raided and nuked sooner or later.

Exactly. The longer they'll hide, the more their enemy will want them dead... 

 

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1 hour ago, Durand said:

 

>Stop being a dumbass.

>I'm looking for his explanation as to why it matters.

You're calling @Malal a dumbass, while trying to find my explanation for why it matters. Goddamn, I can smell it, the hypocrisy is real... 

It's obvious that it matters. Whales count way more, since they have more infra and more troops. We outnumber you badly in lower tiers, but you have better stats than us, and this is only due to your whales. Ok yeah, there's the fact that we had max infra while yours got destroyed in Surf's Up, but whatever.

And if you didn't know, N$O's intervention did help us, but what happened was going to happen no matter what. 

We had infra, and you didn't. If we had as much infra as you, we wouldn't be losing, at least not buy that much. Now that we have no infra left, just like you, we're coming back. There's nothig more obvious. I feel like I'm talking to a wall or to a child right now. Everything that I'm saying is obvious, but it seems that you just don't understand it. You don't even need common sense for this.

You had more whales. Whales matter more. 

We had more infra. It boosted our score for no reason and made our war stats worst. 

You can try to argue this as much as you want, but you'll fail no matter what. You won't win. You can't win. (If you didn't understand, I'm talking about the argument and the war ?)

And if there's a dumbass here, it's you.

>What happened was going to happen no matter what

lol wut.  So you're saying you didn't need N$O then?

 

Alright, sit down.  You're completely neglecting that a whale has a harder time to down declare than nations able to up declare.  What you're doing right now is dragging C25+ nations into your C10+ range.  Which is great, for...  you guys, and also great for them - when they decide to stomp on some lowbie nations.  Thank you.

Had you ignored those whales, they wouldn't be able to do anything until they sold their own Infra.  Which, according to my chat logs within your Discord server, shows that you guys have a script that not only shows who's coming off of beige time, but who's also within score range for counters.  Am I wrong?  So if those were selling Infra, you'd spot it quickly, and pounce on it (hopefully fast).

With that out of the way...

It is also easier to team up and drag a single nation down, considering that attackers have far more flexibility on determining a time to strike.  Sure, they could counter for each other, but then again - look at the war score range once more.  Makes it tougher.  You'd also have to take into consideration on pinging people for said counters and when they'll respond.

Numbers and tiering matter more in the long run than whales ever since the war changes over the years.  The Submarine strat has always been effective ever since @Alex nerfed whales capability of punishing lower scoring nations.  The fact that it took IQ this long to figure out (And how they're being successful on dragging whales down now) makes me wonder what the hell they've been doing all these past years.

>we had Infra, you didn't

Chaos, for the most part, didn't have much Infra.  KETOG, on the other hand, was relatively ok.  I was still around the 1500-2k Infra mark per city, for example.  But I'm not going to nitpick that much because quite honestly it's a pointless argument to have.

 

But uh, you keep being you, champ.  I'm glad you guys think you win.  It seems you need it more.  The confidence boost that is.

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6 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

>What happened was going to happen no matter what

lol wut.

"What happened was going to happen no matter what", meaning that even if N$O did help, we would have still been in the same position. Losing, but catching up.

14 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Alright, sit down.  You're completely neglecting that a whale has a harder time to down declare than nations able to up declare.  What you're doing right now is dragging C25+ nations into your C10+ range.  Which is great, for...  you guys, and also great for them - when they decide to stomp on some lowbie nations.  Thank you.

"Alright sit down". I have no words. It's an honor to be told what to do by the leader of the best alliance in all Orbis... Yes, yes, yes. We can updeclare on you and blablabla, blablabla. What is your point ? "You have way more whales and we had more infra", this was mine. I don't care if we can updeclare easier than your whales can downdeclare, cause you have so many whales that it's still hard for us. Look at the stats please. Don't make the mistake that @Nizam Adrienne just did. She said "you had 300+ nations siting at 20 cities", but the problem is that we don't have 300+ 20 cities, and you have more nations at 20 cities than us... 

20 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Had you ignored those whales, they wouldn't be able to do anything until they sold their own Infra.  Which, according to my chat logs within your Discord server, shows that you guys have a script that not only shows who's coming off of beige time, but who's also within score range for counters.  Am I wrong?  So if those were selling Infra, you'd spot it quickly, and pounce on it (hopefully fast).

 

Let's not reply to that, I don't understand it very well. 

 

20 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

It is also easier to team up and drag a single nation down, considering that attackers have far more flexibility on determining a time to strike.  Sure, they could counter for each other, but then again - look at the war score range once more.  Makes it tougher.  You'd also have to take into consideration on pinging people for said counters and when they'll respond.

 

I know, we all do. We can triple team you guys and stuffs. But we have to team up to drag you guys down, it's because you're more than us (in upper tier). How many times will I hve to say it ? 

24 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

>we had Infra, you didn't

Chaos, for the most part, didn't have much Infra.  KETOG, on the other hand, was relatively ok.  I was still around the 1500-2k Infra mark per city, for example.  But I'm not going to nitpick that much because quite honestly it's a pointless argument to have.

KETOG was relatively ok ? Sure, that's true, for some nations. But the problem is that most of the damages that KETOG received was from infra being destroyed (I can't check the statistics page, so I'm not sure. I might be wrong). And even tho you were winning, you guys still received a lot of damage. You had less infra, that's my point. Sorry for the confusion, but you know exactly what I meant.

27 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

But uh, you keep being you, champ.  I'm glad you guys think you win.

1. Thanks for calling me a champ btw. No one ever called me that before, I appreciate it.

2. Um, ok. I see. Haha, you're a funny guy, aren't you ? "I'm glad you guys think you win". I never said that we were winning now (and maybe I did say it in past posts. If I did so, please quote them here so I can fix it). All I said is that we will win. Or I believe that we have a lot of chances, at least. Once again, we're coming back. You can deny it, but it's the pure truth. 

Since I know that some people don't like to look at stats (cough Adrienne cough), let's look at Coal B's stats since the beginning. Actually, let's only look at tCW's stats since the beginning. Ooooh, poor us. We received a lot of damages. Guess we won't restore our military honor this war... OH. WAIT. WHAT'S HAPPENING ? WE'RE DEALING MORE DAMAGES THAN WE'RE RECEIVING ANY?!?!? YAY. We're coming back....we might win. Sure we're still losing, but we'll win soon enough.

When I'll defeat the last TGH's members, and that BK and slaves will win the war, Buorhann will be the one to pay for my 2k infra - Durand

(sorry, was drunk for the last part ;p)

Now of course, you can try arguing what I just wrote. But do you really believe in what you're typing ? Is it really worth it ? I mean, it's fun, but you're just writing down some dumb stuffs for absolutely no good reasons...

 

 

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2 hours ago, Dad said:

I literally wrote about that in the text you quoted without reading. It's 218:270 in Coalition A's favour at 20 cities. And we have 121 nations at C20, not 300+. But this conversation was about whales, and so I probably should have presented the initial data at 25+ anyway. Which, if you bother to read the text you quoted shows a roughly 7:2 advantage for Coalition A.

You're right, my apologies. When I wrote 300+, I had 18-20 in mind and either forgot to adjust for just city 20 folks/my statement to 18-20 cities. But also, who all are you including in Coalition A for City 20? Because I have us down for 40 c20 nations, not 270, so that's more than a little off....

Edit: Sorry, just realized you were counting 20+, not just 20 city people.

Edited by Nizam Adrienne
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12 minutes ago, Nizam Adrienne said:

You're right, my apologies. When I wrote 300+, I had 18-20 in mind and forgot to adjust for just city 20 folks. But also, who all are you including in Coalition A for City 20? Because I have us down for 40 c20 nations, not 270, so that's more than a little off....

Edit: Sorry, just realized you were counting 20+, not just 20 city people.

It was probably a mistake for me to start at 21 and not 25 in my initial post, I'm still not used to "mid-tier" being around 18-20 now.

As for the alliances I used, here's what I've got. The data isn't perfect since I cba to find everybody's bank, but I think it's close enough at this scale.

 

A

Another offshore

Arrgh

Blackfyre

Church of Spaceology

Clan Callan

Empyrea

Fix The Damn Game Sheepy

Grumpy Old Bastards

Guardian

Knights Templar

Ming Empire

North Point

Oblivion

Rose

Seven Kingdoms

Silenzio

Soup Kitchen

The Fighting Pacifists

The Golden Horde

The Knights Radiant

Valinor

 

B

The Commonwealth

Afrika Korps

Brotherhood of the Clouds

United Purple Nations

Solar Knights

Black Knights

Acadia

Orange Defense Network

Purple Flower Garden

Mythic

Polaris

New Pacific Order

Carthago

Camelot

Order of the White Rose

New Polar Order

Guardians of the Galaxy

Order of the Fallen Angels

United Socialist Nations

Goon Squad

HSBC

Eregion

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1 hour ago, Buorhann said:

-snip-

If whales don't matter why did you sign Guardian/GOB instead of all the page 3 micros? Sounds like you're incompetent to choose two alliances who can only sit around until they're dragged down to die over the clearly superior army of 2 city nations down there.

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Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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20 minutes ago, Malal said:

If whales don't matter why did you sign Guardian/GOB instead of all the page 3 micros? Sounds like you're incompetent to choose two alliances who can only sit around until they're dragged down to die over the clearly superior army of 2 city nations down there.

tenor.gif

1 hour ago, Durand said:

Let's not reply to that, I don't understand it very well. 

You should've just started and stopped right there.

50 minutes ago, Nizam Adrienne said:

You're right, my apologies. When I wrote 300+, I had 18-20 in mind and either forgot to adjust for just city 20 folks/my statement to 18-20 cities. But also, who all are you including in Coalition A for City 20? Because I have us down for 40 c20 nations, not 270, so that's more than a little off....

Edit: Sorry, just realized you were counting 20+, not just 20 city people.

Do keep in mind that they removed a couple of alliances and shifted them to our side.

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3 hours ago, Sketchy said:

Oh I don't know Roq.

You had a secret alliance with the sphere you supposedly broke from while you both were the two largest groupings.

You backstabbed your own ally to defend your former ally.

You had your narratives for hitting GOB/Guardian prepared and ready before we ever hit BK. (And they were bullshit)

You were in talks with BKsphere about hitting us.

You only enforce your arbitrary "balancing attempts" on people not called BK. Apparently BK with their 900 nations hitting Chaos isn't worthy of your benevolent intervention. No you'd rather hit KETOGG instead. Which is why your attempt to retroactively justify your shit with "it was just to keep balance" falls flat. 

I'm not really sure how we had a secret alliance? We had a unilateral set of criteria for acting in a situation where we felt someone would be overwhelmed and at the mercy of broad coalition. It was a huge concern for me that us cancelling would be a way for people to dogpile what remained there because we all have an idea of what the alliances can and can't do.

How did I backstab them? Backstabbing would entail that we didn't tell them what we'd do or what we wanted to do or that we committed some action against them. Our intentions were pretty clear. I don't know where the stabbing part is in this post. Us getting wrecked isn't exactly a backstab. They might have hated what we did, but it's hard to say we stabbed them in the back.The reason I happened to post a DoW was to distance them from the action so they wouldn't be seen as having violated their unilateral declaration.

How were they bullshit? Guardian and GOB signing into KT/TGH sphere was presented as problematic as they were now tied to everyone who did the post-initial blitz take downs of those two. DTC had gone to Oblivion and Rose was seemingly broadcasting their moves to KETOG ahead of time and we all know once abbas went back that he'd be looking out for you primarily. Most of the people who had carried the fronts had solidified around you. LIke I wasn't really lying when I said it was a limited number of people who coordinated the whale takedowns in the last war. Anyone who was there would be aware of that fact. The fact that you just dismiss this issue outright is more you don't really want to see it as me having a genuine concern. You had a very good hand in having most of the big individual hitters in the coalition loyal to you and then you also got the toughest nuts to crack.

This is a new one.

Did BK end up hitting Chaos? Was Chaos at any point in significant danger of being overwhelmed by the BKsphere? The very screen leaked seemed to anticipate difficulty. We can talk about 900 nations all day but it matters where exactly those 900 nations are tiering-wise and how well they're acquainted with the war system. 

I'm not sure where you got the idea I was obsessed with hitting KETOG or needing to do it in tandem with some other war. Hitting KETOG would make sense as it's the most robust group militarily and thus would be the biggest challenge available, yes, but I didn't push the idea initially.  That's mostly because we were well aware it'd turn this underdog narrative about how you guys are so outnumbered but it was a problem that so much power had concentrated around KT/TGH and Rose had left Syndicate with it pretty much being called by KT/TGH.  Then someone friendly to KT/TGH was heavily involved in Rose again. We can also go into the ties between the ex-Rose in Valinor and Rose .

I don't know how it's retroactive justification. The rationale for entering the war was given at the time of declaration.

So you'd think it'd  have been balanced to hit BK even though it would make it into a curbstomp? Let's not talk about nationcounts again, but you know us collaborating with all the people who wanted to hit BK would be overwhelming. I could see this being an argument if the BKsphere demonstrated that it could take on the sphere and overwhelm them quickly rather than it being a slog.

I'm just not sure where all of this stuff about hegemony would finally come into play with us having a preponderance of influence and power.

 

6 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

Numbers, especially where the lower tier is concerned.

They made some progress at lower score levels but were getting killed as soon as they approached anything substantial and the lower tier has been heavily contested by your side.

6 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

The first problem with that, is the volume of quitters. We never expected it to get to that point to begin with. Citadel getting out was not seen as likely, Camelot we knew for a fact would go until the end. We didn't expect any of the main Cov alliances to quit either. FR honestly came as bit of a shock to me. Either way, that's still a sizable contingent by itself.

Well, I was told that there had been outreach and target dates to peace out Citadel. With Camelot, there were reports of low morale. FR was pretty much not really in the war and basically not putting up any fight. The peace the way they did it was bad for Cov, but they had not been putting much effort into fighting. TFP did more but was containable.

6 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

A NAP would've been unlikely. And excuse me if I am misunderstanding it, but how can they reenter a conflict that is finalized? If everyone else had peaced out by then, and the BK and tCW themselves get peace, then that's a war done and over with. It'd have no bearing in a subsequent conflict with N$O as a binding term.

Spin who as being huggers?

Well the scenario that was posed before the GOB/Guardian hit was that  once BK was subdued(I don't think it necessarily would entail peacing entirely), that we'd get hit because we  were seen as being just as worthy of getting hit as BK. This seemed more likely after the GOB/Guardian theater was opened as there would be ample time to lock down the other fronts before switching.

It would be easy to spin a major sphere that sits out a war as being pixel huggers and it would also deter outside assistance as it would be seen as people who stat hugged sitting on the sidelines getting what they deserved. 

6 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

I'll assume you're talking about N$O being hit by us. I actually had some bullet points covering the different reasons why such an scenario was unfeasible, but the fricky quote saving system decided to save a different quote and kill all of it. Hence my abridged response to Odin.

Either way, BK and co.'s motivation under such a situation would've been, in their perspective, getting even with us. Us being engaged with you would simply act as a window for them to do so.

As a general statement, sure. The problem with this situation is, well, how everything developed. And it's what ensued into pages and pages of discussion.
 

It's likely they'd want to get even some day, but it wouldn't be within their power to do so, as their sphere would be in really bad shape and the morale would be low after having been pummeled for x amount of time and not able to do much about it. There also just wouldn't really be much motivation for them to "bail out" people who had been in a position to act but chose not to specifically simply to avoid the PR damage of doing something that benefited BK in some way. The way I saw it was that there wasn't going to be an end in sight for the main cluster(BK/TC) until they were incapacitated and they'd still be held down for a while after that. As Keshav noted, Akuryo saying  what he did wasn't the first we heard of a decision to pursue terms/hold them down. The main econ damage to BK had been done as they had sold infra, so it wasn't really evident to me what else the other side would be looking for if the war was primarily to punish BK after thoroughly trouncing their sphere. It just didn't look to be leading anywhere pretty.

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1 hour ago, Buorhann said:

You should've just started and stopped right there.

That’s what people who are losing an argument say. Don’t worry, everyone has been there. 

Na but for real, good luck on the war. I’ve seen that you had some nice hits, keep it up. Maybe you’ll even win the war, who knows? 

1 hour ago, Buorhann said:

Do keep in mind that they removed a couple of alliances and shifted them to our side.

 

3C4C5B96-FA08-494D-8FDF-DED5536C4447.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, Durand said:

That’s what people who are losing an argument say. Don’t worry, everyone has been there. 

Na but for real, good luck on the war. I’ve seen that you had some nice hits, keep it up. Maybe you’ll even win the war, who knows? 

I mean think about it, if 10 submerged whales were a massive help for you clawing back up, imagine how useful ~70 of them are. :P

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2 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

I mean think about it, if 10 submerged whales were a massive help for you clawing back up, imagine how useful ~70 of them are. :P

Um, I’m sorry but I don’t know what you’re responding to... would you mind telling me ?

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8 minutes ago, Durand said:

Um, I’m sorry but I don’t know what you’re responding to... would you mind telling me ?

How many times have i suggested to you this war will end in stalemate, much to your denial?

You then make a comment of "Maybe you'll win" to which i note a factor that was immensely helpful to your side is available in far greater quantity to ours, and furthermore that the overall numerical gap isn't actually that large. It's not like KF with greater than 3:1 odds against the whales, where it didn't matter how many there were, they outnumbered by ludicrous margins literally everywhere. 

The same does not hold true for this war, and considering that many of the whale alliances from last war are on the same side now, you're in a very "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If you choose not to harpoon the whales you can never truly claim victory, but if you do harpoon them you now have the very serious risk of losing more control down below and having what you just did to your enemy happen to you. The whales are hiding now and being useless, sure. It's a little more difficult to do that though when you drop them to 3k score, you kinda dont give em a choice. :P

Thus i concluded some time ago and still maintain, especially with addition of yet more alliances to our side reducing the numerical gap, that this will end in a stalemate of the "Children rolling across the floor fighting" type. 

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18 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

The same does not hold true for this war, and considering that many of the whale alliances from last war are on the same side now, you're in a very "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If you choose not to harpoon the whales you can never truly claim victory, but if you do harpoon them you now have the very serious risk of losing more control down below and having what you just did to your enemy happen to you. The whales are hiding now and being useless, sure. It's a little more difficult to do that though when you drop them to 3k score, you kinda dont give em a choice. :P

You said that quite a lot, but it isn’t true. It’s not true that the most that we drag down your whales, the most that we lose low tier. Why ? Because those whales can’t strike low tier, so if they don’t attack your whales, they won’t be doing anything. 

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11 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

I mean think about it, if 10 submerged whales were a massive help for you clawing back up, imagine how useful ~70 of them are. :P

That's predicated on the assumption they'll fight rather than sitting there acting as damage pinatas.  Considering they've basically sat out the war from the first round until whenever we got around to updeccing them, it may be optimistic to assume the majority will suddenly become more aggressive once they're zeroed.  A few, sure, but it's not something we're seeing coalition wide by any means. 

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4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

They made some progress at lower score levels but were getting killed as soon as they approached anything substantial and the lower tier has been heavily contested by your side.

That effort started after your entry, not before.

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Well, I was told that there had been outreach and target dates to peace out Citadel. With Camelot, there were reports of low morale. FR was pretty much not really in the war and basically not putting up any fight. The peace the way they did it was bad for Cov, but they had not been putting much effort into fightingTFP did more but was containable.

We had heard stuff from Citadel, but as evident it never materialized. Camelot's reports were unknown to us. Yeah, I'm not saying that FR was actually doing much fighting, just that I didn't expect them to have peaced out. TFP I didn't bother mentioning because their withdrawal was to be expected, given their ties.

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Well the scenario that was posed before the GOB/Guardian hit was that  once BK was subdued(I don't think it necessarily would entail peacing entirely), that we'd get hit because we  were seen as being just as worthy of getting hit as BK.

Why would you be worthy of being hit, at that point of time? BK got hit because ultimately, they were the ones who drew up the plans. 

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

This seemed more likely after the GOB/Guardian theater was opened as there would be ample time to lock down the other fronts before switching.

We are not at fault for any risks you may have incurred on yourselves for interfering. 

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

It would be easy to spin a major sphere that sits out a war as being pixel huggers and it would also deter outside assistance as it would be seen as people who stat hugged sitting on the sidelines getting what they deserved. 

I don't think anyone was calling you that at the time. Personally, I thought that you were simply going to go the route of making a mint as KTGH did during Knightfall. More power to you if you had gone that route. War profiteering is neat.

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

It's likely they'd want to get even some day, but it wouldn't be within their power to do so, as their sphere would be in really bad shape and the morale would be low after having been pummeled for x amount of time and not able to do much about it.

Eeeh. BK definitely has more than enough money to throw around if needed be.

Morale is a fair point to argue, but I think that having the entirety of N$O in would have gotten that up by a fair bit. It is a much different prospect.

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

There also just wouldn't really be much motivation for them to "bail out" people who had been in a position to act but chose not to specifically simply to avoid the PR damage of doing something that benefited BK in some way.

That wouldn't need to be the motivation though. 

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

The way I saw it was that there wasn't going to be an end in sight for the main cluster(BK/TC) until they were incapacitated and they'd still be held down for a while after that.

We were expecting the war to go for a month and a half or two, simply because that's part and parcel with them. If it had been up to us, it'd have been a month and then peace. The sooner we could have ended our cooperation with Chaos, the better. That was mutual.

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

As Keshav noted, Akuryo saying  what he did wasn't the first we heard of a decision to pursue terms/hold them down.

Well, Nizam already cleared up about Akuryo, but I guess a bit too late. And BK/tCW were the first ones who said anything about imposing "harsh terms" actually. So if you've got a bone to pick about those, look at those beside you.

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

The main econ damage to BK had been done as they had sold infra, so it wasn't really evident to me what else the other side would be looking for if the war was primarily to punish BK after thoroughly trouncing their sphere. It just didn't look to be leading anywhere pretty.

That was not the intent of the war. The intent for it was to preempt a threat that we deemed was imminent. Or rather, try to. How the war ended up panning out in that first week or so, was as much of a surprise to us as it might have been of a shock to you. 

Perceptions and realities differ. That's all I'll say about that.

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
Minor.
 
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