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How long will this war go on for?


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26 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

Straight forward question, does your coalition as a whole concur with Sketchy's view on a scorched earth and burning NPO/BK permanently?

 

3 minutes ago, Hodor said:

No.

 

Missed this question earlier but I'll back Hodor here.

Edited by Nizam Adrienne

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2 hours ago, Edward I said:

See my wall of text that came after the post this was in response to. The details are there, but the short version is that we reject the notion that we had - or needed to be given - the "benefit of the doubt." The minisphere construct which we were all but commanded to support wasn't one we thought was fully sound. Its advocates accused us of undermining it from the start, seemingly without listening to our concerns and certainly without addressing them.

If trust in NPO is predicated on its deference to your preferences regarding the metagame, then you have every reason to distrust us. We will never value the preferences or concerns of others over our own. That doesn't mean we aren't willing to compromise or listen, though. If you want NPO to be a full partner in building whatever world it is you want, perhaps consider doing the same.

First and foremost, I honestly don’t give a damn what NPO does for their own.  However, that certainly won’t stop me from criticizing you folks either when you’re doing exactly what you’ve complained or criticized others for.

Such as building a hegemony through secret treaties.

You and others have said otherwise, but your actions contradict your statements.

You missed a prime opportunity by joining the conflict.

You would’ve noticed KETOG and Chaos going their own separate ways.  You would’ve seen that neither of us pursue your “mini sphere”.  And you would’ve kept at least amicable (or better) relations with those you normally haven’t.

We were very straightforward and clear with you, and we kept our word.  However, certain others have not...

——————

Just to clarify something.  No, we’re not looking to force any treaty break ups, or formations of them.  No, we’re not looking at perma war for the sake of scorch earth.

If anything, the damage is already done on both sides.

However, we will continue to fight, raid, and pillage.

Edited by Buorhann
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15 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

So Sketchy's statement of intent is not the coalition's or TGH's intent and your coalition repudiates his statement? 

I thought you just had the one straight forward question? Pretty sure this is the same question reworded to somehow get me to throw Sketchy under the bus. I've said it, and Buorhann has said it, in differing ways. We understand Sketchy's frustration. The amount of work that went into shifting the paradigm of the game was a labor of literal years. To see such promise only to have it thrown down on what we see as weak premises is sure to frustrate the hell out of anyone, let alone someone so intimately involved in the pursuit of its success. We don't want to perma war you and drive you out of Orbis. But we are upset.

Edited by Hodor
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49 minutes ago, Odin said:

Ketog, Chaos and Rose, each completely non-aligned to each other, can join a war together against a common foe, with CB "BK and N$O planning a war against them". .

Alright, everything's fine until here.

N$O, a bit alligned to BK due to the treaty-web, is not allowed to declare a war against blocs, that used "BK and N$O planning a war against them". 

Where is the logic behind that?  Doesn't need much brain matter to know who would have been rolled in the next or a bit later in the same war....

While I indeed condemn the content of that leak, attacking two smaller blocs like that, that original war itself has never happened. It was a "What if" case, if "Surfs Up" never had happened. 

The reality was another one: The first mentioned alliances, instead of dealing with it diplomatically, decided to use their low Infra situation to completely sweep over BK in an Offensive War. None of you know how tight the bonds between N$O and BK really were until it became necessary to bond again together, since the CB was one that was only a coin throw away to simply affect the other one. Any further complaints about the righteousness of anyone's war entry is by now just plain salt. Salt especially over the ingames war mechanics that can't simulate a "Desert Storm". 

The initial Blitz was nicely executed, really well done. I wondered sometimes if the 25% downdeclare range still exists.   

But in the end and finally coming to the topic of this thread: This war will go as long as we need to kill all the pixel-hugging whales on your side. Thanks to Ketog here for thinking they're an advantage. Against whom was this dual-joke idea of Guardian/Grumpy directed? As you can see, they're nothing but useless baggage starting round 2 if there's no counterpart on the enemy side. ...Happily building cities at war (from trade income) and bunkering up while the rest of you is bleeding. 

Some of them can't understand the fact that they might lose. That's why they're complaining. A lot of KERCHTOGG members have been really nice and are just enjoying the war, but some others are ruining it for everyone else. I agree that the problem's on both sides tho. 

But a lot of members of the KERCGTOGG keep on saying that we have 2 times more people than them, while ignoring the fact that they got more whales than us (which is obvious), and that's exactly the reason why they still have better stats. 

It's complicated for some people to understand that they might lose after attacking first an enemy that was  going to hit them. They could have talked to our gov, maybe there would have still be a conflict, but we never know. Instead, they hit us, and are now complaining about us bringing our protectorates and friends. 

NPO came and helped us, and now they're mad. Instead of peacing out, they'll wait until they've dealt enough damages to us, but it will be too late. The war will continue for months, and it'll just be better for us. We're not "winning", but soon we will be. 

And about NPO helping us, I heard no one (or a few people) complaining about Rose coming to help Kertog/Chaos. Because (unless someone proves me wrong), they had no place in this war. Of course, this is a game, and they have the right to attack whoever they want, but NPO has that right too. It's not a bad thing that they joined tho, big wars are cooler, and with Rose, KERCHTOGG has more chances against us. But once again, those same people who complain about friends backing us up, have friends backing them up. In an offensive wars, let's not forget. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Such as building a hegemony through secret treaties.

There are none. 

 

38 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

You and others have said otherwise, but your actions contradict your statements.

Our actions aren't based off secret treaties. Again I've explained our reasoning. You just don't like it, but it had nothing to do with a secret treaty with BK. 

 

38 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

You missed a prime opportunity by joining the conflict.

You would’ve noticed KETOG and Chaos going their own separate ways.  You would’ve seen that neither of us pursue your “mini sphere”.  And you would’ve kept at least amicable (or better) relations with those you normally haven’t.

We were very straightforward and clear with you, and we kept our word.  However, certain others have not...

This is what Edward is pointing out as the pigeonhole you keep trying to force us into. We're not here to promote the aesthetics of something, at the cost of our safety and security. If there is a threat, we will deal with it, aesthetics be damned. 

I doubt you going your own ways. Nevertheless, we aren't going to leave our safety in your hands, in the belief that KETOGG/Chaos will keep their word of breaking apart post war. That's a fools errand, and leaving our safety in the hands of someone else, is something we'd prefer not having it come to. 

38 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Just to clarify something.  No, we’re not looking to force any treaty break ups, or formations of them.  No, we’re not looking at perma war for the sake of scorch earth.

Thanks. 

38 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

However, we will continue to fight, raid, and pillage.

Looking forward to continuing to do the same ;) 

 

30 minutes ago, Hodor said:

I thought you just had the one straight forward question? Pretty sure this is the same question reworded to somehow get me to throw Sketchy under the bus. I've said it, and Buorhann has said it, in differing ways. We understand Sketchy's frustration. The amount of work that went into shifting the paradigm of the game was a labor of literal years. To see such promise only to have it thrown down on what we see as weak premises is sure to frustrate the hell out of anyone, let alone someone so intimately involved in the pursuit of its success. We don't want to perma war you and drive you out of Orbis. But we are upset.

I mean supplementary questions are always fair in any discussion :P Fair enough, thanks for the clarification. I mean is it too early to state minispheres have always been a terrible idea, and bound to fail due to its own dogma?

 

Also the reason I specifically ask for a repudiation of such statements is to circle back to the point of toxicity and hostility shown on the boards regarding the war. Not repudiating such statements, only continues to build the toxicity from the war, which was a topic of discussion a few pages ago. Such antagonism while denied, and not repudiated could be effectively argued as tacit approval for the statements but the lack of necessary military power to carry out the proclaimed intent. 

I mean, I'll gladly repudiate any NPO'er and Government official who posts with a serious intent to scorch the earth/disband and politically neuter alliances in public but that's a subjective standard I imagine. 

Edited by Shadowthrone
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19 hours ago, Buorhann said:

None of what you said contributes to the mini-sphere argument you put on me, but I do admire the stretch on the last few statements you have.  They are either liars or hypocrites, or both.  Their (Well, NPO's) actions contradict everything they've stated, and they haven't shown anything of real substance to back up their "innocent" claims.

We have attempted multiple times to give NPO the benefit of the doubt.  @Hodor and @Keegoz have both reached out to your leaders multiple times in the past.

Even with this war, we decided to give you the benefit of the doubt based on those leaks from TCW.

Each and every action you've taken recently have pretty much spit all of our efforts towards your alliance back in our fa

 

They did reach out, but the things they wanted were too far apart. With Hodor, I was only made aware of the fact that he seemed to think we could have elected to join your sphere instead when we had already had long-standing talks with tS. There was some interest perked when he brought up his own ideas for minispheres, but there wasn't much development there. It was a rare and welcome engagement from someone in that corner, however.

As for Keegoz, for the past two or so years there hasn't been any real common goal. He and KT have had one thing they've been focused on for the most part in that they didn't like the BK treaty web. The concerns about what would happen if it were to be dealt with militarily were not really addressed in a way that would have been feasible for me to accept. I have  a great amount of respect for the military capabilities of the alliances in your sphere and that's why it was always hard to accept that there was so much concern.  He just didn't share the concerns about the upper tier before and now. I made it clear after that I perceived the coalition they had as having shown it could slice through the "blob" they detested and considered it problematic and that it was simply too good to avoid fighting.

As Hodor said to reach some sort of agreement where both sides would have been happy would have taken a lot more political will on both sides to pursue it and effort as it would have to have been a long-term solution rather than just beating up a relatively inexperienced and initially non-cohesive group. 

4 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Just out of curiosity, is this before or after you attacked Guardian and us?  I dont think this has been answered yet.

Before.  Some people wanted to avoid burning bridges with CoS so we were avoiding acting on it until it seemed to be fully playing out and we tried to honor those wishes until we felt it had reached critical mass.

 

6 hours ago, Sketchy said:

.

Keep saying you don't have hegemonic ambitions. Your secret treaties and fake splits have already been revealed. All the shit you attack TKR for doing you do yourself.

Also, you have Buorhann and I mixed up, I'm the 2ic, he is the leader. I assumed it was a mistake in the first post but guess not.

How exactly are we having hegemonic ambitions? How do any of the things we did put us in a position of primary influence and dominance? We went in knowing people would make hay over it and tar and feather us and it would cost us a lot of political capital, but it was seen as better than letting the scenario we feared play out.  The typical larger coalition that had many inexperienced alliances not being able to outpace the nimble one with more elite players was just another version of  Paracov vs Syndisphere playing out for the umpteenth time and we didn't really want to happen as it would drastically imbalance things and put us in a position where we'd not have many options.  The only thing we've really done that could be construed as hegemonic is the fact we've been heavy-handed on micros for beiging, but the issue only rises after trying to get through to them diplomatically. As many players in micro just have no real knowledge of the meta-game and so don't want to compromise their pixels, it has to be a worse proposition for them to beige than not to beige.

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2 hours ago, Odin said:

Where is the logic behind that?  Doesn't need much brain matter to know who would have been rolled in the next or a bit later in the same war....

Attacking N$O unprovoked would've made no sense, either during this war or shortly after it. It also assumes that we had either the intent or capacity to do so. Neither existed.

And even if we did, what'd the end result be? It'd be getting hit by BK and N$O at the same time. As you yourself put it, one doesn't need to be exactly smart to figure that out.

For some reason, people suddenly forget that this game can indeed go for longer than 2-3 months, when the theoretical scenario of KERCHTOG going berserk over the rest of the game pops up. They act as if there would have been absolutely no consequences to such a maneuver. Which is amusing, given the simultaneous boasts about the current war lasting until the end of times/in perpetuity.

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1 minute ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

Attacking N$O unprovoked would've made no sense, either during this war or shortly after it. It also assumes that we had either the intent or capacity to do so. Neither existed.

And even if we did, what'd the end result be? It'd be getting hit by BK and N$O at the same time. As you yourself put it, one doesn't need to be exactly smart to figure that out.

For some reason, people suddenly forget that this game can indeed go for longer than 2-3 months, when the theoretical scenario of KERCHTOG going berserk over the rest of the game pops up. They act as if there would have been absolutely no consequences to such a maneuver. Which is amusing, given the simultaneous boasts about the current war lasting until the end of times/in perpetuity.

What makes you think BK or their allies would be in a position to do anything about it? Let's say the scenario played out fully:  BK was held down and couldn't do anything. Everyone except BK/Cov is peaced  with no re-entry but BK and TCW are dead in the water or they get peace after x time with conditions of no reentry. Like it was pretty clear that staying out would be easy to spin as pixel hugging and make a big target. Typically when someone is burned and some other people stay out, they don't really sally forth to help the other group because they have no real inclination to help someone who they think wouldn't help them if they needed it. We can see it as having played out with Proxy War and Oktoberfest. One sphere sat out or did a half-hearted effort and it just leads to disjointed stuff or not helping. That also led to the indecision in the war that followed(168 day war). When two separate spheres may be at risk, they either have to go all in or not at all.

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7 minutes ago, TheNG said:

You'll never see a faster backtrack/excuse-making than when TGH realizes their members/gov have said something(s) dumb and hostile again. Good luck Hodor, you're doing your best!

I mean, if that's the way you want to see it that's fine, but if you're going to quote to our toxic moments constantly and then meme our genuine outreach then you've shown just exactly how little we should expect when we dedicate energy to dialogue.

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45 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

What makes you think BK or their allies would be in a position to do anything about it?

Numbers, especially where the lower tier is concerned.

45 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

BK was held down and couldn't do anything. Everyone except BK/Cov is peaced  with no re-entry but BK and TCW are dead in the water or they get peace after x time with conditions of no reentry.

The first problem with that, is the volume of quitters. We never expected it to get to that point to begin with. Citadel getting out was not seen as likely, Camelot we knew for a fact would go until the end. We didn't expect any of the main Cov alliances to quit either. FR honestly came as bit of a shock to me. Either way, that's still a sizable contingent by itself.

45 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

or they get peace after x time with conditions of no reentry.

A NAP would've been unlikely. And excuse me if I am misunderstanding it, but how can they reenter a conflict that is finalized? If everyone else had peaced out by then, and the BK and tCW themselves get peace, then that's a war done and over with. It'd have no bearing in a subsequent conflict with N$O as a binding term.

45 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Like it was pretty clear that staying out would be easy to spin as pixel hugging and make a big target.

Spin who as being huggers?

45 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Typically when someone is burned and some other people stay out, they don't really sally forth to help the other group because they have no real inclination to help someone who they think wouldn't help them if they needed it.

I'll assume you're talking about N$O being hit by us. I actually had some bullet points covering the different reasons why such an scenario was unfeasible, but the fricky quote saving system decided to save a different quote and kill all of it. Hence my abridged response to Odin.

Either way, BK and co.'s motivation under such a situation would've been, in their perspective, getting even with us. Us being engaged with you would simply act as a window for them to do so.

45 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

When two separate spheres may be at risk, they either have to go all in or not at all.

As a general statement, sure. The problem with this situation is, well, how everything developed. And it's what ensued into pages and pages of discussion.
 

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
Minor fix.
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2 hours ago, Durand said:

And about NPO helping us, I heard no one (or a few people) complaining about Rose coming to help Kertog/Chaos. Because (unless someone proves me wrong), they had no place in this war.

First, there were complaints, but mostly on Discord and talk shows.

Second, Rose made their stance very clear.  We also made our stance very clear.  We didn't go to Rose, they presented their assistance with their reasoning and we accepted.  We also told them what to expect, and they had a good idea as to what they were getting into.  They've stuck true to their word about the whole situation.

>we have more whales

Yeesh, it's like 2017 all over again.

37 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

What makes you think BK or their allies would be in a position to do anything about it? Let's say the scenario played out fully:  BK was held down and couldn't do anything. Everyone except BK/Cov is peaced  with no re-entry but BK and TCW are dead in the water or they get peace after x time with conditions of no reentry.

Sounds like pure speculation.  A shame it wasn't explored.

13 minutes ago, Hodor said:

I mean, if that's the way you want to see it that's fine, but if you're going to quote to our toxic moments constantly and then meme our genuine outreach then you've shown just exactly how little we should expect when we dedicate energy to dialogue.

You have to understand, TheNG is just spouting nonsense like his partner in crime Malal.  They're just looking to farm Likes.

For once they're excited about doing something good!  Like obeying BK and NPO despite their past moments of complaining about being in IQ's shadow.  Ironic that they're right back in that position.

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6 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

First, there were complaints, but mostly on Discord and talk shows.

 Second, Rose made their stance very clear.  We also made our stance very clear.  We didn't go to Rose, they presented their assistance with their reasoning and we accepted.  We also told them what to expect, and they had a good idea as to what they were getting into.  They've stuck true to their word about the whole situation.

Yes, I understood that not that long ago. Someone (I don't remember who tho) told me that it was Rose who asked his alliance if they could join. 

 

6 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

>we have more whales

 

Kek, no need to say anything.

I guess that one of my slave masters will come here and gently explain what you need to know.

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1 minute ago, Durand said:

Kek, no need to say anything.

I guess that one of my slave masters will come here and gently explain what you need to know.

Oh no, I'd love to hear you explain it.

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43 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

You have to understand, TheNG is just spouting nonsense like his partner in crime Malal.  They're just looking to farm Likes.

For once they're excited about doing something good!  Like obeying BK and NPO despite their past moments of complaining about being in IQ's shadow.  Ironic that they're right back in that position.

Because everyone knows the best way to farm likes is by attacking the more forum active half of the game; you're a genius you know that? The truth is that I've only posted one image in the past month because the problem is why should I waste my time making good content when your coalition is to busy being hypocritical and inconsistent to post any of your own.

 

However, despite everything that's happened so far this war, I just want you to know that I'm still holding out hope that one day you'll grow up and become as honest and morally consistent as I have always been.

Edited by Malal
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Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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4 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Oh no, I'd love to hear you explain it.

Aaaah, finally they let the BK slave#4675 speak by himself...

The only alliance in our coalition that actually has a lot of whales (by whales I'm talking about 25+ cities just saying. If this isn't the right definition of "whale", feel free to correct me) is tCW. I don't know exactly what are the numbers, and if you do please write them down, but I'm pretty sure that we're the alliance with the most whales in the whole coalition. After, we got large alliances like UPN, BK, AK, Acadia, and a couple of others that actually have a couple whales, and even 30+ guys. 

But now, let's look at your coalition, KERCHTOGG or I don't know what.

You have Grumpy, an alliance full of whales, that has 30 members. I know that 30 isn't a lot, but they still average 33 cities per member, and they have barely been hit during Surf's Up, even while fighting CoS and SK (I'm not sure but I believe that they have a lot of whales). 

After that, you have Guardian. They don't have as much whales as Grumpy, but they still have a lot. There's a good reason why Chaos got destroyed in Surf's Up, because their enemies had Grumpy and Guardian (part of the reasons).

Let's not forget Rose, an alliance who didn't suffer anything from Surf's Up, who has a lot of whales. Just like tCW I think.

And then there's CoS, SK, KT, TKR, Soup, TGH, and a few other alliances that has a little bit of whales, but enough to be a problem.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we actually had more whales, and we just got unlucky (or we're "bad at war", who knows ?). But no one has ever came to me with the proof that we have more whales. 

We were outnumbered in the high tier. You were outnumbered in the low tier. It's simple.

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54 minutes ago, Hodor said:

I mean, if that's the way you want to see it that's fine, but if you're going to quote to our toxic moments constantly and then meme our genuine outreach then you've shown just exactly how little we should expect when we dedicate energy to dialogue.

Why should we believe that it's genuine now and not just a charade you're putting on because you've lost and are trying to backpedal onto the moral highground after you jumped off? The fact is at the beginning of the war you thought you were going to win and therefore you were honest, and now that you're losing you want us to believe you? 

The crux of the issue is you're refusing to respect our intelligence, everything your coalition posted at the beginning of the war clearly indicated you wanted to permanently destroy us, you can't doubleback now that you're down a month later and expect anything better than ridicule. You're coalition is acting like the person who runs to VM at the beginning of a war claiming their busy IRL and jumps out the second that it's finished and for some mind-boggling reason expects people to believe they weren't just war dodging despite all the evidence to the contrary. 

The fact that NPO is still trying to engage you even somewhat reasonably speaks to their immense naivety in expecting honest and good faith discussions from your side. It's politically incompetent actions like this that made me so anti-NPO and that combined with the pointless in-game antagonism by BK is what made me so anti-BK which is why UPN has always been as far away from IQ as we possible could while maintaining the only tie we cared about at the time. 

Edited by Malal
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Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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18 minutes ago, Durand said:

-snip-

Don't bother engaging them when they're trying to deny basic facts lmfao. He literally has access to a tool that shows him that his "temporary war coalition" has more whales than our coalitions. The fact that he's baiting you into trying to defend an objectively true statement that everyone knows should show you how pointless it is to bother engaging with them.

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Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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16 minutes ago, Malal said:

Don't bother engaging them when they're trying to deny basic facts lmfao. He literally has access to a tool that shows him that his "temporary war coalition" has more whales than our coalitions. The fact that he's baiting you into trying to defend an objectively true statement that everyone knows should show you how pointless it is to bother engaging with them.

Yeah you're right. I always thought that I could be wrong about how many whales they actually have, but the fact that Buorhann never tried to actually prove anything just proves me right. We'll see in 2 months from now, cause we never know. Who shall win this war ? KERCHTOGG will probably use NPO as an excuse of why they lost... it has already begun ?

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27 minutes ago, Malal said:

Why should we believe that it's genuine now and not just a charade you're putting on because you've lost and are trying to backpedal onto the moral highground after you jumped off? The fact is at the beginning of the war you thought you were going to win and therefore you were honest, and now that you're losing you want us to believe you? 

The crux of the issue is you're refusing to respect our intelligence, everything your coalition posted at the beginning of the war clearly indicated you wanted to permanently destroy us, you can't doubleback now that you're down a month later and expect anything better than ridicule. You're coalition is acting like the person who runs to VM at the beginning of a war claiming their busy IRL and jumps out the second that it's finished and for some mind-boggling reason expects people to believe they weren't just war dodging despite all the evidence to the contrary. 

The fact that NPO is still trying to engage you even somewhat reasonably speaks to their immense naivety in expecting honest and good faith discussions from your side. It's politically incompetent actions like this that made me so anti-NPO and that combined with the pointless in-game antagonism by BK is what made me so anti-BK which is why UPN has always been as far away from IQ as we possible could while maintaining the only tie we cared about at the time. 

Well I gave it a try, probably stayed at it too long. If you genuinely believe this about me and the argument I’m making you’re too far gone down a pit of intransigence.

 

If anyone wants to continue talking, you can find me on discord. Good chatting with you @Shadowthrone and @Edward I.

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17 minutes ago, Dad said:

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Ouch, no wonder why our whales got dragged down to my score in a couple of days. 

The rest of the fight will be funny to watch. Dozens of 6k+ score trying badly to escape the meatgrinder. Keeping thousands of tanks and hundreds of ships to avoid the war. Sadly for them, we're catching up a bit in high tiers, and some of those pixel huggers won't be able to hide for much longer.

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First, I'm not disputing the fact we have more whales, @Malal.  Stop being a dumbass.

I'm looking for his explanation as to why it matters.

15 minutes ago, Durand said:

Yeah you're right. I always thought that I could be wrong about how many whales they actually have, but the fact that Buorhann never tried to actually prove anything just proves me right. We'll see in 2 months from now, cause we never know. Who shall win this war ? KERCHTOGG will probably use NPO as an excuse of why they lost... it has already begun ?

I mean, you guys were pretty screwed over till N$O intervention.  Didn't even put up much of a fight till then.

Let's not try to play down the fact that the distraction from N$O allowed you folks to reorganize.

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