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Declaration of War


Roquentin
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3 minutes ago, Bart said:

Learn to use partial quotes, please.

I'm simply analysing your statement and removing the sugar coating. Let me rephrase it in a way you might understand: If you poke a dragon with a stick you're still going to get burned to the same degree. And no amount of complaining about how big the dragon, how much fire it can spout, or how small the stick was changes the fact that it's your own fault that you got burned by doing so.
 

A healthy protector-protectorate relationship means that you grant your protectorate the freedom to do as they please as long as it doesn't negatively affect you in any way. You seem to be under the impression that the protector is some sort of malicious grand-vizier with a big curled-up moustache directing the protectorates and ordering them to go to war. While you folks might (no idea to be honest) treat protectorates that way, most decent alliances do not.

I don't like how the format of partial quotes looks so I'll pass.

Here is a different analogy though. Imagine two armies are fighting and then a dragon starts lighting one of the two on fire. The one being set on fire says "hey uh sure it looks like you are helping the other side". The dragon then says "wow I can't believe you'd poke me like that". 

Yeah I agree with your statement on protectorates. I'm not even really sure we disagree here. I am pointing out inconsistencies from others

Edited by Smith
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20 minutes ago, Dio Brando said:

Our CBs:

  1. Continued antagonism (your low gov quite literally called us "a cancer on every game". Please frick off with your self righteous bullshit);

Truth hurts huh.

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1 minute ago, Smith said:

I don't like how the format of partial quotes looks so I'll pass.

So you prefer unstructured responses in a feeble attempt to hide your chaotic argumentation style?

 

1 minute ago, Smith said:

Here is a different analogy though. Imagine two armies are fighting and then a dragon starts lighting one of the two on fire. The one being set on fire says "hey uh sure it looks like you are helping the other side". The dragon then says "wow I can't believe you'd poke me like that". 

Of course, that operates on the flawed assumption that there was no stick involved. May I suggest re-reading your earlier statements to figure out why said dragon might very much have felt a prod beforehand. You seem to be particularly good at selective reading though, so it might take a few tries to notice it.

 

4 minutes ago, Smith said:

Yeah I agree with your statement on protectorates. I'm not even really sure we disagree here. I am pointing out inconsistencies from others

Inconsistency? Ever considered that the protectorate might simply choose to join out of their own accords?

I solemnly swear Lord of Darkness is up to no good.

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4 minutes ago, Bart said:

So you prefer unstructured responses in a feeble attempt to hide your chaotic argumentation style?

 

Of course, that operates on the flawed assumption that there was no stick involved. May I suggest re-reading your earlier statements to figure out why said dragon might very much have felt a prod beforehand. You seem to be particularly good at selective reading though, so it might take a few tries to notice it.

 

Inconsistency? Ever considered that the protectorate might simply choose to join out of their own accords?

No I like the look of it all being together. Nice ad hominem though

I'm not really sure what you are referencing. If you have a point you should say it.

I did consider that and actually brought it up earlier. Still doesn't address my point :P

 

Edit: Also can your clarify your position from earlier? You made it seem like the only reason to have a sphere is to make it as big as possible. Is that what you believe? 

Edited by Smith

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1 minute ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Comedy = tragedy + time.  So I will allow it.

as someone that was allied to roq back then, i can say it wasn’t a particularly enjoyable experience, and seeing what’s going on now with his current allies, I can understand their actions.

Not sure what you're referring to but if you're referring to the 7.5year old video ...

theres a huge difference between "doing dirty politics" (which is what opponents accuse NPO of doing, NPO says otherwise) -- which practically everyone does in Political Games. 

and "Crossing boundaries" -- which involves digging through someone's past, years back to dredge up any embarrassing moments nearly a decade ago, stuff not related to PnW. The player who did that (I can't be arsed to remember his/her name though I should) should delete it and apologize; looking up someone's social medias like Reddits (or wherever the **** he trawled to find this) or looking up ANYWHERE to LOOK for this shit is never acceptable. Worse is spreading it across Discords. Obsessed with someone much? 

likewise I apologize for any friends who threw insults. I also notice that OOC boundaries were obviously crossed; things are heated. However, there's a difference between attempting to public humiliate someone with their past -voice- recording, or some game shit like declaring war as a result of political leaks (or even *IF* that's not how it went down and NPO actually broke their own promises, what did you expect you're on POLITICS and WAR.)  Just play the game like a normal person ( or politician if you like harsh politics ) but don't cross boundaries. You forget it is real people sitting behind the screen.

 

 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Dio Brando said:

The fake interview (and the surprising number of upvotes it got) is just another example of your side's incredible assholery in the recent past. Let's have at it.

I am surprised that the parody interview Charlie made is getting so much heat. The audio is from a clip where Roq was getting interviewed by a guy that was being an !@#$ to him, so Roq got defensive. Charlie used the audio and inserted his own questions about the recent ‘IQ-revival’ situation. I know Charlie and he wouldn’t do anything to attack someone OOC. OOC Roq is one of the sweetest people in the game, if he felt like this was a OOC attack, then I have no doubt Charlie will take it down. It was meant to be a parody for propaganda on the war. It wasn’t supposed to be taken as an actual interview as it was so blatantly fake.

 

Also, Dio - you were one of those “ !@#$” that originally upvoted it. It appears you changed your tune when your coalition decided to use the fake interview as a political high horse to ride on. It’s hard for me to even know if some of you are even being genuine in your “ZOMG OOC ATTACK!” because of how this thread played out and the initial reactions. To me it almost looks like a narrative you are trying to push even tho you know it’s fake. If that is the case, then shame on you because you’re trying to paint a picture that Charlie is some !@#$ that attacks people OOC, which in of itself is a borderline OOC attack trying to give a negative persona about the person behind the keyboard.

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9 minutes ago, Kevanovia said:

Also, Dio - you were one of those “ !@#$” that originally upvoted it. It appears you changed your tune when your coalition decided to use the fake interview as a political high horse to ride on. It’s hard for me to even know if some of you are even being genuine in your “ZOMG OOC ATTACK!” because of how this thread played out and the initial reactions. To me it almost looks like a narrative you are trying to push even tho you know it’s fake. If that is the case, then shame on you because you’re trying to paint a picture that Charlie is some !@#$ that attacks people OOC, which in of itself is a borderline OOC attack trying to give a negative persona about the person behind the keyboard.

So I'll keep this short because I have to be somewhere else soon, but I made it clear to anyone who listened (hell, I talked to Charlie about this and there's no hard feelings between us, I think he's a great person and I don't think he'd OOC attack people) that I didn't actually think Charlie was in the wrong here. As far as I'm aware the dude wasn't even aware of the context behind that interview (as in, the less obvious context). That was on rapmanej. Also, dude, I still think it was a funny/clever idea, but it was the part where I noticed people genuinely thought the interview was legitimate that I went ??? at. The guy who I think gave the recording in the first place apologized to Roq already (and I literally just had a chat with him about it). If I made it seem as if I thought ill of Charlie (which I may very well have in that rambling post) then that's on me. You're always welcome to touchbase with me on Discord, and in the past half hour I think I made it clear that I really do appreciate C. 

9 minutes ago, Kevanovia said:

It wasn’t supposed to be taken as an actual interview as it was so blatantly fake.

This hits the nail on the head. It wasn't, but it turned out to be anyway.

Edited by Dio Brando
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This thread is just back and forth of people trying to force their cb into wars that are unrelated to their cb. Let's remember, the Dial up war started only and only because of sphinx leaking the plan of his plot to roll chaos and also trying to get ketogg rolled in the process. Every participant of this war in the side of chaos ketogg and rose have different interpretations of that log, some view it as a direct threat such as those in chaos, others view it as imperialistic and out of touch with reality. Even sphinx own allies called it the most stupid fa blunder in their entire pw playing career. People should ask sphinx allies why that is the case if they are not familiar with how those leaks are themselves a cb for sphinx and his alliance to be rolled hard.

The Dial up war started cause of TCW leaks clearly showing a plot against 2 different spheres. I did not give a shit when ketogg hit chaos, nor did when tkr had a hate boner on bk, nor did when bk had the same boner against tkr. I have logs for all of that to prove it. But no need, everyone here knows who hates who.

IQ was a threat to this game and their split was good for the game, now if we want to debate how IQ was a threat, well IQ is dead so no need to debate that anymore. The cb Dio posted against tkr is of tkr against IQ. Everyone in this game was plotting a rolling against IQ before any of the minisphere stuff, in fact IQ split cause of it as in their own words they did not want to be the punching bag and Roq said, bk claimed to want to grow outside of their conventional tiering. Since the IQ split chaos has been attacked and rolled considerably by ketogg, lost a whole ally of 140k score in the process too alongside the cheat stuff. Nothing is going their way since the war with ketogg started. Now people trying to extrapolate that tkr will pursue a war against NPO while it is fighting bksphere, sure thats a theory to have but people have already forgotten that tkr are forced into this fight by the very fact that they got peace from ketogg only to pursue this fight as there is a whole freaking screenshot of Sphinx detailing every little detail of his delusions of grandeur. When roq said he has no idea of whatever sphinx is cooking, I believe it and made sure that information is passed on to my alliance.

What you guys are doing in this unilateral course of action cause of a cb of tkr plotting against IQ is win good faith and assurances in a coalition of low tier alliances in a losing fight so you have that insurance policy cause you do not even have enough trust in your current allies to defend you or aid you if tkr ever pursued a war against you. You wanted to roll tkr dude, could have done it post war too, no one was stopping you whatsoever, you don't even need a cb for that, its not like tkr has had the best FA rep in the past 2 years. The reason the tkr attack is now is just to keep face. In fact you were more likely to get a win against tkr post war then you are now.

Now I know the cynicism of some in NPO and they might say tkr will generate a lot of influence post war and will be unrollable so rolling now is best, well its not like you are rolling tkr now either. Your entry into this war has 0 affect on tkr's viability or even tkr's war performance. All you did was actually made their damaged rep seem better than whatever this entry into the war is. This entry has 0 impact on the wider conflict except show some sort of camaraderie of being in the same trenches as your former low tier allies. You wanted to roll tkr as revenge for that IQ cb, well trust your own current allies to plot with you to do that, if you are in a losing spot then might as well lose with your allies than this gang of sphinx enablers.

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I am not a member of Guardian p&w

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27 minutes ago, Smith said:

No I like the look of it all being together. Nice ad hominem though

Mirror, mirror on the wall, ...  If we are going to be claiming that you should really start checking your own statements.

28 minutes ago, Smith said:

I'm not really sure what you are referencing. If you have a point you should say it.

You don't get to go around doing and saying certain things without facing the repercussions of those actions. Read Dio's post, he neatly summarises some of your fallacies.

30 minutes ago, Smith said:

I did consider that and actually brought it up earlier. Still doesn't address my point :P

It very much does address it though, you seem to be the only person incapable of grasping how causation and correlation are non-identical phenomena.

31 minutes ago, Smith said:

Edit: Also can your clarify your position from earlier? You made it seem like the only reason to have a sphere is to make it as big as possible. Is that what you believe? 

That was your position, I simply took your incoherent blabber and attached the logical conclusion to it. Your entire whine is based on the flawed argument of "they shouldn't be allowed to do this because they might  outnumber the other side". My own position on this matter is quite simple though: if you pick a fight with someone continuously you shouldn't be amazed that they suddenly say 'sure' and then proceed to give you that fight.

Since I can't quite be bothered to continue with this nonsense: Are you Tywin's twin brother or clone?

I solemnly swear Lord of Darkness is up to no good.

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Still waiting on that evidence that everyone and their second cousin thought that the IQ split was fake before this war and that it justified IQ "getting back together".

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Just now, Bart said:

Mirror, mirror on the wall, ...  If we are going to be claiming that you should really start checking your own statements.

You don't get to go around doing and saying certain things without facing the repercussions of those actions. Read Dio's post, he neatly summarises some of your fallacies.

It very much does address it though, you seem to be the only person incapable of grasping how causation and correlation are non-identical phenomena.

That was your position, I simply took your incoherent blabber and attached the logical conclusion to it. Your entire whine is based on the flawed argument of "they shouldn't be allowed to do this because they might  outnumber the other side". My own position on this matter is quite simple though: if you pick a fight with someone continuously you shouldn't be amazed that they suddenly say 'sure' and then proceed to give you that fight.

Since I can't quite be bothered to continue with this nonsense: Are you Tywin's twin brother or clone?

Is this mirror mirror on the wall thing some new meme I missed?

I'll let Adrienne address Dio's post as it is a response to her/I am not involved in those logs. But anyway I agree that this conversation really isn't going anywhere. It was fun though :D 

 

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The real problem, NPO people, is that if your threshold for a CB was that low (and old logs about a hypothetical scenario where IQ was still together is indeed a low bar to clear), that you had one against the entire game (as Abbas is implying above) and for some reason only acted on it against TKR. It's odd to everyone, I would say, that you coincidentally saw the only possible move to make as refolding into IQ. And everything about the way your government went about this makes it look as if they made that choice, then worked backwards to the "best" justification they could come up with. Which, unfortunately, was still very weak.

That's about how I see it. I'm probably done trying to argue with your government about it though, because they have established themselves as disingenuous liars.

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Slaughter the shits of the world. They poison the air you breathe.

 

~ William S. Burroughs

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The most insane contention is that somehow this entire war is an elaborate plan to take down NPO. 

Only a pathologically victimhood mentality alliance would believe this. But the thing is, they don't actually believe this; they simply wanted to hit us. 

How they have somehow made this war about them; a war that began with a fight between KETOGG and Chaos, and ultimately ended with KETOGG + Chaos fighting BK and friends (a position we were FORCED into because of the leaked logs detailing their plan to hit us as soon as we rebuilt) is very clear evidence of their not only massive hate boner for TKR but also their intentions of choking out the rest of the game.

Which leaves us in only one scenario: If every war is a war in which NPO somehow conceives of it being a plan to roll them, and then use this + hidden logs which can be literally anyone + "a trusted source" to hit TKR whenever they get the chance, we must fight for our survival and we are back to where we were 2 years ago.

The minisphere idea, which I remind everyone first became very prominent after NPO !@#$ed and moaned about how the game isn't dynamic enough and its the same old wars, has been shown to be untenable. Some progress was made towards this goal of a multi-sphere environment with contained wars, with KT/TGH leading by example, followed by the formation of Chaos post Knightfall. The problem is that the other half of the game is not playing by these arbitrary rules which we have imposed on each other despite being the ones who pushed hardest for the change of the metagame.

And everything came together when NPO tried to kill the game this weekend by blitzing us. It is their riskiest move yet because they absolutely have to win this to gain control. This is the culmination of their 3 years victim narrative, this war right now where they see the opportunity to secure the top once and for all by knocking the rest of us out quite a few pegs.

So we will fight. For the sake of the game, for the sake of our alliances.

Edited by Lordship
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I still have fond memories of helping defeat NPO (for their first loss) in CN alongside Roq way back in CN. Interesting how things change, think it was Roq & Umbrella most committed to keeping NPO from rebuilding as long as possible after the Karma War in CN.:P

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12 minutes ago, Lordship said:

The most insane contention is that somehow this entire war is an elaborate plan to take down NPO. 

Only a pathologically victimhood mentality alliance would believe this. But the thing is, they don't actually believe this; they simply wanted to hit us. 

How they have somehow made this war about them; a war that began with a fight between KETOGG and Chaos, and ultimately ended with KETOGG + Chaos fighting BK and friends (a position we were FORCED into because of the leaked logs detailing their plan to hit us as soon as we rebuilt) is very clear evidence of their not only massive hate boner for TKR but also their intentions of choking out the rest of the game.

Which leaves us in only one scenario: If every war is a war in which NPO somehow conceives of it being a plan to roll them, and then use this + hidden logs which can be literally anyone + "a trusted source" to hit TKR whenever they get the chance, we must fight for our survival and we are back to where we were 2 years ago.

The minisphere idea, which I remind everyone first became very prominent after NPO !@#$ed and moaned about how the game isn't dynamic enough and its the same old wars, has been shown to be untenable. Some progress was made towards this goal of a multi-sphere environment with contained wars, with KT/TGH leading by example, followed by the formation of Chaos post Knightfall. The problem is that the other half of the game is not playing by these arbitrary rules which we have imposed on each other despite being the ones who pushed hardest for the change of the metagame.

And everything came together when NPO tried to kill the game this weekend by blitzing us. It is their riskiest move yet because they absolutely have to win this to gain control. This is the culmination of their 3 years victim narrative, this war right now where they see the opportunity to secure the top once and for all by knocking the rest of us out quite a few pegs.

So we will fight. For the sake of the game, for the sake of our alliances.

You weren't forced into  declaring war. You always have a choice. Plus from the logs I've seen there has been nothing that says BK sphere would hit you after you rebuilt from the KETOG v Chaos War. 

Let's be real here that the mini-spheres idea was complete bullshit. KETOG used it to their advantage against you and then when you had the opportunity to continue mini-spheres you decided to team up instead. Sure you can say they were trying to get KETOG rolled, but that's because they thought KETOG would be a threat to BK sphere should they declare on Chaos. So even at this stage BK sphere had 0 trust in either of you acting alone, and what would you know they were right to try and plan for this exact outcome. When you continue to throw hatred at the same spheres and show no willingness to change, then the status quo will continue. If you want to change the political landscape, try actually being cordial to other spheres and not backing them into a corner together. 

Unfortunately NPO isn't killing the game by declaring on TKR. If that was the case you should be saying Grumpy/Guardian and their upper tier allies/coalition that has consolidated a vast amount of the whale tier, are killing the game. We all know with enough alliances and co-ordonation they can be taken down. Same as NPO. 

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Just now, Tiberius said:

Snip

 

And then they trot out the idiots of their alliance to help distract from the fact that they are currently attempting to gain total supremacy.

All of this is intentional, pay attention folks. 

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I'm all for fighting for the sake of fighting, but there's no reason to mask it with thin logic. Just makes it seem like a bad excuse when trying to take control of a war is the aim. If NPO came out and said what they were doing and fought honorably, sure they would get some flak for whole "consolidation" thing, but I think more people could get behind it.

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Sorry, we're hypocrites for using TCW leaks as a CB but not accepting the thrax convo? That was a discussion between the now defunct TKRsphere to hit the now defunct IQ over the now defunct threat that you posed to everybody else. Neither of the spheres nor the CB still exist - hell, one of the TKRspheres named members in that log is actually a BK ally and fighting TKR right now! There is just no relevance to it because the neither the situation nor the actors are the same.

On the other hand nothing has changed from the sphinx logs. All the alliances on both sides are the same, as is whatever rationale they had for hitting us (hatred of TKR?). The leak thread was full of statements that BK-NPO would not fight each other, making it clear their only action could be following through on the plans. If not right after Surfs up, then a few months down the line. Contrary to the 'ebil TKR-CoS plot', the FA context hadn't changed at all from the time of the statement to the time of the leak and our attack.

The only other thing you've got is a dio log with redacted claiming we were considering hitting n$o. What we were considering, at the time we saw the logs, was whether or not you had accepted their proposal. If you had, yes that would make your our enemy and we'd need to hit you to prevent the counters. But we didn't, because you denied any cooperation and we accepted that. Even after the limited entry on GoB/Guardian, which looked increadibly suspicious from the outside, we were willing to let you prove that you have nothing to do with BK and aren't our enemy.

In a climate of mistrust, actions speak far louder than words. We demonstrated that there was no desire to attack you by not attacking you, even when it would have made the most strategic sense. t$/HS demonstrated their sincerity by sticking to their guidelines and leaving when you went beyond them. You, on the other hand, proved only your own deliciousness.

Oh, well I guess there's also Keshav's 'hard proof' logs, which were mysteriously lost in a fire. I can't fathom why people aren't taking those at face value....

Edited by Mikey
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6 minutes ago, Lordship said:

And then they trot out the idiots of their alliance to help distract from the fact that they are currently attempting to gain total supremacy.

All of this is intentional, pay attention folks. 

Oh look someone trying to appease their circle jerk. 

I take it that you agree with everything I said since there is no denial. I am glad we agree.

5 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Sorry, we're hypocrites for using TCW leaks as a CB but not accepting the thrax convo? That was a discussion between the now defunct TKRsphere to hit the now defunct IQ over the now defunct threat that you posed to everybody else. Neither of the spheres nor the CB still exist - hell, one of the TKRspheres named members in that log is actually a BK ally and fighting TKR right now! There is just no relevance to it because the neither the situation nor the actors are the same.

On the other hand nothing has changed from the sphinx logs. All the alliances on both sides are the same, as would be whatever rationale they had for hitting us (hatred of TKR?). The leak thread was full of statements that BK-NPO would not fight each other, leaving the only outcome that BK follows through. If not right after Surfs up, then a few months down the line. Contrary to the 'ebil TKR-CoS plot', the FA context hadn't changed at all from the time of the statement to the time of the leak and our attack.

The only other thing you've got is a dio log with redacted claiming we were considering hitting n$o. What we were considering, at the time we saw the logs, was whether or not you had accepted their proposal. If you had, yes that would make your our enemy and we'd need to hit you. ToT proved you don't just leave one of the biggest and more competent enemy alliances free to counter. But you all denied any cooperation, and we took you up on that. Was there distrust? Yes, and recent events have proven that distrust valid. But there was no plan to hit n$o or consider your our enemy, because we were going to let you prove your claims with action. Staying out the war (and later limiting yourselves to Grumpy/Guardian) would have proven your sincerity. NPO wouldn't be an enemy, and nobody would have any more reason to attack you than any other alliance.

Oh and I guess there's Keshav's hard proof logs which were mysteriously lost in a fire. I can't fathom why anybody wouldn't believe that....

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on why we are doing what we are doing and everyone is entitled to that. Frankly I could care less. We get more war and that ultimately is the greatest result.

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34 minutes ago, Lordship said:

Heap of words about NPO having a victimhood complex...

 

And everything came together when NPO tried to kill the game this weekend by blitzing us. It is their riskiest move yet because they absolutely have to win this to gain control. This is the culmination of their 3 years victim narrative, this war right now where they see the opportunity to secure the top once and for all by knocking the rest of us out quite a few pegs.

So we will fight. For the sake of the game, for the sake of our alliances.

This is kinda the thing that makes no sense.  Apparently we unfairly think that people are out to get us, but its only NPO when it goes to war that is accused of 'literally killing the game'

This war, no matter the outcome won't make a dot of different on the long term outlook for P&W.  What will make a difference is proper moderation, active administration, advertising to new players and a mobile application.  The fact is, the absolute hate that we are generating right now is bloody good for games like this as it gives people a reason to hold grudges, build coalitions and plan long term.

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