Jump to content

Endgame?


Sir Scarfalot
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just now, Tiberius said:

1. KETOG on its own isn't a huge threat. KETOG, Chaos and the rest of this coalition combining makes it a huge threat. If you can combine to take down one large sphere, you are capable of doing so again and so you paint a target on your back. 

2. The alliances have prior history of being in coalitions. Both spheres share hostility towards N$O sphere. Makes you a threat. As above you've shown you will combine to hit someone if you have the opportunity.

3. All wars are the same, there is a Victor and a loser. In all cases one side always has an advantage of some kind. The only time you will get a war that looks different is if you plan the war against each other together. Even matchups, no one getting the advantage of first strike, no tier advantages etc.

1. Fair point. But one war as partners does not a trend make. In fact, I would agree with you were it not for literal leaks that led to this war. There was an unambiguous reason for our working together in this case. If anyone argues we declared this war because of anything but those leaks, I can show you dozens of logs to prove it.

2. Every alliance in this game has been in a coalition. A good portion of our gov have been in t$ gov or allied with t$. Our goal from the get go, and this is maybe the one area CHAOS and KETOG are aligned, was to open up the game. To that effect we were open to discussing treaties with parties we were previously hostile towards. I'd challenge you to look at our actions of the past year and tell me we haven't taken every step to try and mix this game up. The combining to hit was addressed in my above point.

3. You missed the point. Again, you've been playing this game less than 2 years, so I'll educate you just a bit. KETOG members get rolled. We don't mind getting rolled. What we do mind, and this is the point I am making, is getting rolled by the same coalition time and time again with no change. That is how this war looks similar. We were told IQ was breaking apart and there was a glimmer of hope for a political landscape unlike what Orbis has ever seen. The glimmer is fading with every post that hints at NPO's eventual entry.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Hodor said:

1. Fair point. But one war as partners does not a trend make. In fact, I would agree with you were it not for literal leaks that led to this war. There was an unambiguous reason for our working together in this case. If anyone argues we declared this war because of anything but those leaks, I can show you dozens of logs to prove it.

2. Every alliance in this game has been in a coalition. A good portion of our gov have been in t$ gov or allied with t$. Our goal from the get go, and this is maybe the one area CHAOS and KETOG are aligned, was to open up the game. To that effect we were open to discussing treaties with parties we were previously hostile towards. I'd challenge you to look at our actions of the past year and tell me we haven't taken every step to try and mix this game up. The combining to hit was addressed in my above point.

3. You missed the point. Again, you've been playing this game less than 2 years, so I'll educate you just a bit. KETOG members get rolled. We don't mind getting rolled. What we do mind, and this is the point I am making, is getting rolled by the same coalition time and time again with no change. That is how this war looks similar. We were told IQ was breaking apart and there was a glimmer of hope for a political landscape unlike what Orbis has ever seen. The glimmer is fading with every post that hints at NPO's eventual entry.

You attacked BK, which you had fought before.

 

TBH, this entire "war is fun" thing is stupid. There's very few masochists in the game who like Hard Mode Coalition, and most people actually just like collecting war stats by attacking weaker or defenseless foes so they can brag about it. If you really wanted a hard mode coalition fight, you'd have sent KETOG, by itself, with no support, against the BK sphere.

Edited by Inst

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

1. KETOG on its own isn't a huge threat. KETOG, Chaos and the rest of this coalition combining makes it a huge threat. If you can combine to take down one large sphere, you are capable of doing so again and so you paint a target on your back.

This point you’re making is so incredibly ridiculous. Not only have both KETOG/Chaos spoken out about being anti-hegemonic, they’ve acted on it again and again and again. On top of this, KETOG/Chaos were just at war with one another. These narratives you are pushing are so twisted from reality. 

 

29 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

2. The alliances have prior history of being in coalitions. Both spheres share hostility towards N$O sphere. Makes you a threat. As above you've shown you will combine to hit someone if you have the opportunity.

What? Lol All alliances with history have history being in coalitions. Hostility toward N$O? I disagree with that statement. I can’t speak for KETOG, but there are plenty of alliances in N$O that Chaos alliances have positive relationships with. Also, there were logs outlining BKsphere’s intention to hit both us and KETOG. They brought this entire war on themselves.

 

Also, the name of the war should be The Dial Up War.

Edited by Kevanovia

image.gif.d80770bf646703bba00c14ad52088af9.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Hodor said:

1. Fair point. But one war as partners does not a trend make. In fact, I would agree with you were it not for literal leaks that led to this war. There was an unambiguous reason for our working together in this case. If anyone argues we declared this war because of anything but those leaks, I can show you dozens of logs to prove it.

2. Every alliance in this game has been in a coalition. A good portion of our gov have been in t$ gov or allied with t$. Our goal from the get go, and this is maybe the one area CHAOS and KETOG are aligned, was to open up the game. To that effect we were open to discussing treaties with parties we were previously hostile towards. I'd challenge you to look at our actions of the past year and tell me we haven't taken every step to try and mix this game up. The combining to hit was addressed in my above point.

3. You missed the point. Again, you've been playing this game less than 2 years, so I'll educate you just a bit. KETOG members get rolled. We don't mind getting rolled. What we do mind, and this is the point I am making, is getting rolled by the same coalition time and time again with no change. That is how this war looks similar. We were told IQ was breaking apart and there was a glimmer of hope for a political landscape unlike what Orbis has ever seen. The glimmer is fading with every post that hints at NPO's eventual entry.

1. The precedent is set though. You are wholesale co-operating. What if it gets leaked N$O are going to roll you, you'll co-ordinate again. You can try and paint it whichever way you want, but we have a pretty good picture of what would happen in similar scenarios. 

2. From a personal view point, I wouldn't say much has changed. 2 spheres hostile to NPO are still hostile to NPO. You see this on forums etc. If you had the opportunity to take us down you would do it.

3. Even wars will never happen. It's a pipe dream. In my opinion the most fun I've had fighting was in a losing war. Once NPO get taken down there will be a new hegemon and it will continue until they are taken down. There is people who dedicate too much time and effort to the game just for fun wars. They want to be the best. For your perfect wars to happen you need all alliances to follow the same culture and that is unfortunately impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Tiberius said:

1. The precedent is set though. You are wholesale co-operating. What if it gets leaked N$O are going to roll you, you'll co-ordinate again. You can try and paint it whichever way you want, but we have a pretty good picture of what would happen in similar scenarios. 

2. From a personal view point, I wouldn't say much has changed. 2 spheres hostile to NPO are still hostile to NPO. You see this on forums etc. If you had the opportunity to take us down you would do it.

3. Even wars will never happen. It's a pipe dream. In my opinion the most fun I've had fighting was in a losing war. Once NPO get taken down there will be a new hegemon and it will continue until they are taken down. There is people who dedicate too much time and effort to the game just for fun wars. They want to be the best. For your perfect wars to happen you need all alliances to follow the same culture and that is unfortunately impossible.

Please address my rebuttals to your rebuttal. That's how debate works. This is your first warning, summer child.

1. This isn't a courtroom. Precedent isn't made from one instance in war, else Germans would always be Nazis and all wars would be nuclear.

2. Opportunism has nothing to do with it. We literally were at war and one side was getting stomped. If we wanted to hit you due to animosity or opportunism you bet your ass we are competent enough to hit with our full force at a time of our choosing.

3. First 2 sentences have already been addressed ad nausea. 3 sentence, so we agree? 4-end, we don't want perfect, we just don't want the same ad infinitum. Thought that was clear in my last post?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

1. The precedent is set though. You are wholesale co-operating. What if it gets leaked N$O are going to roll you, you'll co-ordinate again. You can try and paint it whichever way you want, but we have a pretty good picture of what would happen in similar scenarios. 

2. From a personal view point, I wouldn't say much has changed. 2 spheres hostile to NPO are still hostile to NPO. You see this on forums etc. If you had the opportunity to take us down you would do it.

3. Even wars will never happen. It's a pipe dream. In my opinion the most fun I've had fighting was in a losing war. Once NPO get taken down there will be a new hegemon and it will continue until they are taken down. There is people who dedicate too much time and effort to the game just for fun wars. They want to be the best. For your perfect wars to happen you need all alliances to follow the same culture and that is unfortunately impossible.

Is BK Sphere not considered to be a threat to N$O? 

 

If you want to keep things interesting and suppress threats, why not have a 3 way all out war instead of denying the paperless and then completely ignoring the fact that BK is much more of a threat than KETOG/Chaos while claiming they are the threat to you. 

 

If  T$ wanted to be opportunistic, they would have waited for GG to finish weakening TCW and then hit both sides hard after having been weakened. Instead, this appears to be an effort to support TCW/BK sphere's whale tier.

Edited by PDunny
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, PDunny said:

Is BK Sphere not considered to be a threat to N$O? 

 

If you want to keep things interesting and suppress threats, why not have a 3 way all out war instead of denying the paperless and then completely ignoring the fact that BK is much more of a threat than KETOG/Chaos while claiming they are the threat to you. 

 

If  T$ wanted to be opportunistic, they would have waited for GG to finish weakening TCW and then hit both sides hard after having been weakened. Instead, this appears to be an effort to support TCW/BK sphere's whale tier.

This IS a three way all out war. TJest is continuing to attack Citadel sphere. Likewise, NPOT$ had the opportunity to intercede with an all-out attack at around the same time KT and Rose attacked. They refused to do so, and the level of attack into Chaos KERTOG is only sufficient to equal the fight, not turn this into a dogpile.

I've remarked to BK-sphere milcom that the assets sent in are only equaling the fight, not overturning it. It's still their obligation to make sure their combatants don't suck at war, as the stalled offensive on North Point is indicating (OFA is treating the fight as overgrown raids and slot-blocking more competent defenders).

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Inst said:

This IS a three way all out war. TJest is continuing to attack Citadel sphere. Likewise, NPOT$ had the opportunity to intercede with an all-out attack at around the same time KT and Rose attacked. They refused to do so, and the level of attack into Chaos KERTOG is only sufficient to equal the fight, not turn this into a dogpile.

I've remarked to BK-sphere milcom that the assets sent in are only equaling the fight, not overturning it. It's still their obligation to make sure their combatants don't suck at war, as the stalled offensive on North Point is indicating (OFA is treating the fight as overgrown raids and slot-blocking more competent defenders).

By 3 way I am referring to N$O  v CHAOS/KETOG v BK Sphere. Not Chaos/KETOG v BK.

 

I am asking why N$O considers a threat from Chaos/KETOG but no threats from BK. If they are not allied than that part of this does not make sense to me.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, PDunny said:

By 3 way I am referring to N$O  v CHAOS/KETOG v BK Sphere. Not Chaos/KETOG v BK.

 

I am asking why N$O considers a threat from Chaos/KETOG but no threats from BK. If they are not allied than that part of this does not make sense to me.

Part of it is all the repeated f- yous Buorhann's sent to Partisan. And the constant "let's go kill IQ" NPO gets from KETOG. The BK-NPO relationship is not acrimonious, unlike certain other relationships in the game. I'll also point out that Chaos KETOG coalition is actually stronger than BK, as your coalition demonstrated during the first few days of the war. And then there's the fact that BK sphere is known to contain multiple crap alliances that can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Hodor said:

Please address my rebuttals to your rebuttal. That's how debate works. This is your first warning, summer child.

1. This isn't a courtroom. Precedent isn't made from one instance in war, else Germans would always be Nazis and all wars would be nuclear.

2. Opportunism has nothing to do with it. We literally were at war and one side was getting stomped. If we wanted to hit you due to animosity or opportunism you bet your ass we are competent enough to hit with our full force at a time of our choosing.

3. First 2 sentences have already been addressed ad nausea. 3 sentence, so we agree? 4-end, we don't want perfect, we just don't want the same ad infinitum. Thought that was clear in my last post?

Opportunism has everything to do with it. If you were guaranteed to be ground into dust you wouldn't have pulled the trigger. You had a solid CB and the advantages needed to go in against them. If you really wanted something different you would not have teamed up to hit BK sphere. You are doing the same thing that's always happened and trying to play the "but we did something different before card". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Inst said:

Part of it is all the repeated f- yous Buorhann's sent to Partisan. And the constant "let's go kill IQ" NPO gets from KETOG. The BK-NPO relationship is not acrimonious, unlike certain other relationships in the game. I'll also point out that Chaos KETOG coalition is actually stronger than BK, as your coalition demonstrated during the first few days of the war. And then there's the fact that BK sphere is known to contain multiple crap alliances that can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

I'm not disagreeing with that fact, nor am I stating that N$O should stay out of it. I am merely stating the fact that if they are not allied, why not take the opportunity to knock out 2 opponents instead of just focusing on one opponent?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, PDunny said:

Is BK Sphere not considered to be a threat to N$O? 

 

If you want to keep things interesting and suppress threats, why not have a 3 way all out war instead of denying the paperless and then completely ignoring the fact that BK is much more of a threat than KETOG/Chaos while claiming they are the threat to you. 

 

If  T$ wanted to be opportunistic, they would have waited for GG to finish weakening TCW and then hit both sides hard after having been weakened. Instead, this appears to be an effort to support TCW/BK sphere's whale tier.

Probably because A. BK isn't hostile to the N$O sphere, B. Because KETOG and Chaos are currently making them not a threat by being at war with them and C. BK doesn't have an advantage in the whale tier.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Opportunism has everything to do with it. If you were guaranteed to be ground into dust you wouldn't have pulled the trigger. You had a solid CB and the advantages needed to go in against them. If you really wanted something different you would not have teamed up to hit BK sphere. You are doing the same thing that's always happened and trying to play the "but we did something different before card". 

My sweet, sweet, summer child. We are talking past each other. I do appreciate you engaging me, but I do not believe you're approaching this as rationally as you let on. I mean this with all the kindness I have left in my bitter heart, pass the baton to a better representative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, PDunny said:

I'm not disagreeing with that fact, nor am I stating that N$O should stay out of it. I am merely stating the fact that if they are not allied, why not take the opportunity to knock out 2 opponents instead of just focusing on one opponent?

I think we discussed the Chaos-Surf's Up war recently. The problem with any three-way war is that they're entirely uncontrollable, in a three-way war, you have no guarantee that two parties won't gang up on a third party, or vice versa. From a game theory perspective, it always makes sense for the two losing parties to gang up on the winning party, then break alliance once the orders have changed. Three-ways are basically clusterf- and are also known as suicides.

 

Likewise, part of the problem is that if T$NPO were to take on both BK and Chaos-KERTOG at the same time, they'd be outmatched and end up dying. Logically speaking, this could be seen as similar to a three-way war insofar as Chaos-KERTOG is the strongest party if BK-sphere, T$NPO and Chaos-KERTOG were considered separately. So if this were a three-way war, this is the strategic outcome that you would expect anyways.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Probably because A. BK isn't hostile to the N$O sphere, B. Because KETOG and Chaos are currently making them not a threat by being at war with them and C. BK doesn't have an advantage in the whale tier.

 

 

  1. BK is not hostile currently, unless there is a secret treaty that is bound to change. Without multiple spheres coming together to take down either you or BK, you two are the only spheres at the top that could realistically fight each other. It's just a matter of time until it happens unless there is treaties in place. And even with treaties, it is likely to happen eventually as you push more and more people out of the game there will be virtually no one left to war other than each other.
  2.  I will give you that, we were making them not a threat. By supporting them you are allowing them to continue to be a threat though. As I said, I am not discussing whether or not you should be involved in the war but whether or not it is in your best interest to support only one side of the war. The fact is, your best interest is to let us fight it out and then come through and destroy everything that remains. The fact that you are supporting a single side currently would be indicative of a secret treaty.
  3. Yeah, whale tier consolidation is a pain and I understand your sentiment regarding that. I do think that Knightfall has proven that whale tier can be overcome by mass amount of mid tier. BK has also strengthened their whale tier since KnightFall by signing TCW. This should make them more a threat than the 2 smaller spheres, who have clear animosity towards each other. Again, not saying that N$O shouldn't get involved, just stating that their best interests is for the fall of BK's sphere and the demolition of the coalition between Chaos & KETOG.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Opportunism has everything to do with it. If you were guaranteed to be ground into dust you wouldn't have pulled the trigger. You had a solid CB and the advantages needed to go in against them. If you really wanted something different you would not have teamed up to hit BK sphere. You are doing the same thing that's always happened and trying to play the "but we did something different before card". 

tenor.gif

  • Upvote 1

image.gif.d80770bf646703bba00c14ad52088af9.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Inst said:

I think we discussed the Chaos-Surf's Up war recently. The problem with any three-way war is that they're entirely uncontrollable, in a three-way war, you have no guarantee that two parties won't gang up on a third party, or vice versa. From a game theory perspective, it always makes sense for the two losing parties to gang up on the winning party, then break alliance once the orders have changed. Three-ways are basically clusterf- and are also known as suicides.

 

Likewise, part of the problem is that if T$NPO were to take on both BK and Chaos-KERTOG at the same time, they'd be outmatched and end up dying. Logically speaking, this could be seen as similar to a three-way war insofar as Chaos-KERTOG is the strongest party if BK-sphere, T$NPO and Chaos-KERTOG were considered separately. So if this were a three-way war, this is the strategic outcome that you would expect anyways.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a lot of fun and that there would be a lot of damage thrown around to everyone. It would severely weaken all of Orbis, create new bonds and new enemies. Isn't that the fun of the game though? 

 

If they want to do it safely, wait until the upper tier is nearly pushed down some by the KETOG side and then come in guns blazing with a pincer maneuver, NPO taking down the mid tiers of BK's side (BK is going to win that portion of the war) while T$ and what's left of TCW takes down the upper tier from the KETOGG side. While the lower tier attack might frustrate BK and company, the upper tier support would force BK's hand in considering them allies as well, forcing them to not solely focus on them. It also would put KETOG and Chaos in a bad state since KETOG would be getting rained down upon them by N$O while CHAOS is getting support from them, effectively causing a rift in the coalition.

 

In the end, N$O would come out a bit weaker but stronger than the rest of Orbis. It would also cause massive tension in the main sphere that could impact them (TCW likely wouldn't be too happy with BK and vise versa) and cause tensions between the 2 smaller tiers that joined together to fight BK. Also, it wouldn't completely destroy N$O's credibility and play along the new cool lines of being dynamic or whatever.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, PDunny said:

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a lot of fun and that there would be a lot of damage thrown around to everyone. It would severely weaken all of Orbis, create new bonds and new enemies. Isn't that the fun of the game though? 

 

If they want to do it safely, wait until the upper tier is nearly pushed down some by the KETOG side and then come in guns blazing with a pincer maneuver, NPO taking down the mid tiers of BK's side (BK is going to win that portion of the war) while T$ and what's left of TCW takes down the upper tier from the KETOGG side. While the lower tier attack might frustrate BK and company, the upper tier support would force BK's hand in considering them allies as well, forcing them to not solely focus on them. It also would put KETOG and Chaos in a bad state since KETOG would be getting rained down upon them by N$O while CHAOS is getting support from them, effectively causing a rift in the coalition.

 

In the end, N$O would come out a bit weaker but stronger than the rest of Orbis. It would also cause massive tension in the main sphere that could impact them (TCW likely wouldn't be too happy with BK and vise versa) and cause tensions between the 2 smaller tiers that joined together to fight BK. Also, it wouldn't completely destroy N$O's credibility and play along the new cool lines of being dynamic or whatever.

 

Basically, if you're out of hegemony you complain that the hegemony won't make wars interesting or fair. If you're in the hegemony, you complain that the people outside the hegemony just suck.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Filmore said:

I find it amusing how the Chaos and Ketog members in this thread keep leaving out the fact that they recruited Rose for this war. 

I find it amusing that you came into a conversation with a valid point, but ruined its chances of actually being addressed in good faith because you coated it in passive aggression.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Hodor said:

I find it amusing that you came into a conversation with a valid point, but ruined its chances of actually being addressed in good faith because you coated it in passive aggression.

Passive aggression is my specialty

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Inst said:

Part of it is all the repeated f- yous Buorhann's sent to Partisan. And the constant "let's go kill IQ" NPO gets from KETOG. The BK-NPO relationship is not acrimonious, unlike certain other relationships in the game. I'll also point out that Chaos KETOG coalition is actually stronger than BK, as your coalition demonstrated during the first few days of the war. And then there's the fact that BK sphere is known to contain multiple crap alliances that can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

@Buorhann @Hodor

You reap what you sow

 

os9LcJK.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My two cents. Take it for the incredibly tired, mostly retired rambling it is before I get smart and leave you all to deal with your own mess. :D

Rose, KETOG, and Chaos came at the idea of a multipolar world with more honesty than others did (Citadel, t$, Covenant). There were also groups that very simply don't care about this goal (BK), and those that think it is impossible and as such don't bother to try (NPO). As a result, when it became clearly evident we were going to be actively targeted by a consolidated mess of alliances no matter what we did, we had no choice but to declare this war. It's a defensive war, since every reasonable political opportunity was created for the rest of the treaty to break, including virtually all of those alliances fighting each other while the treaty web did nothing.

Now, were it up to me, I wouldn't have fought KETOG in the first place, because the signs that that consolidation wasn't going to break were always there, and as such, rewarding the alliances who were just looking to redo previous IQ wars only with t$ and TCW in iq was very simply dumb. But obviously that wasn't my bloc's war to declare, and it does amuse me a bit to see the KETOG players crying foul, as if they didn't implicitly reward the politicking they are supposedly so averse to. But good job getting stats, I guess?

A more clever political approach, (particularly if people were at all interested in not just falling instantly back into bipolarity), would have been to exploit that massive disconnect between my bloc and KETOG instead of clumsily allowing us no option other than common defense, but here we are I suppose.

Edit: Is it endgame? No. It's just the game's politics continuing to die, gradually.

Edited by Spaceman Thrax
  • Downvote 1

Slaughter the shits of the world. They poison the air you breathe.

 

~ William S. Burroughs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and the Guidelines of the game and community.