Endgame?

[Cinomoo]

3 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

The problem here is you look at our existence as a problem, and you're not the first one to. Means I have to protect all 45 members who play this game as a part of the TGH, and that means those interests outweigh yours in most cases. If it comes to needing to defend ourselves and our right to exist, feel free to expand the war, and keep us in war forever. If that's what you consider fun, go ahead. I do however, reserve the right to watch for potential security threats, the same as you, and by the precedent you set here going after Grumpy, I have the same rights do I not? Or is that just a you being allowed extra rights to play this game because it's you, and Grumpy man bad and we should exist to solely pleasure you?

We've entered some kind of mutually assured destruction zone here.

[Sir Scarfalot]

1 minute ago, Cinomoo said:

We've entered some kind of mutually assured destruction zone here.

It's almost like that's what I've been saying this whole thread

Alright, know what, I appreciate the like, and I'd upvote your post to reward you for it but... uh, I ran out of reactions. I'll get it to you tomorrow, promise!

Edited June 20, 2019 by Sir Scarfalot
like - like. That's the way to play~

[Cinomoo]

Just now, Sir Scarfalot said:

It's almost like that's what I've been saying this whole thread

What would you like NPO to do? objectively, try see it from their perspective and suggest what you would do given the current situation.

Don't get mad at me I'm just an observer.

[Sir Scarfalot]

5 minutes ago, Cinomoo said:

What would you like NPO to do? objectively, try see it from their perspective and suggest what you would do given the current situation.

Don't get mad at me I'm just an observer.

That is a fair question, and I'm not mad at you. Nor for that matter am I mad at NPO for anything other than their dishonesty about splitting with BK; maintaining paperless ties to BK is entirely consistent with their interests and a good move objectively speaking, but they didn't have to lie about it and they could have gained so much more by just maintaining the charade for at least this next war while their opponents beat each other out to a pulp.

But I digress. To answer your question, what I would like NPO to do is harden the frick up and learn to accept the existence of risk. This game cannot be lost in the same way that a match of Team Fortress 2 can be lost, nor can it be won in the same way that Team Fortress 2 can be won. It also cannot be lost in the same way that an IRL fight to the death can be lost or won. The low stakes of the risks involved here means that there's no reason to so desperately and pathetically reach out for every advantage possible. Fairness is generally speaking a naive pipedream and a sucker's play, for obvious reasons, but Surf's Up proved that something similar to it is more than a theoretical possibility. The only thing standing in the way of casual and fun competition, like say doing some damage then making our peaces and moving on to the next set of different wars like Shadowthrone says he wants, is the factors of our environment; but we are our environment. We can choose to create an environment where we don't need to feel completely protected, where we don't need to be so desperately afraid of each other that we're willing to throw away the possibility of casual competition, where we don't need to or even want to control every facet of our friends' and allies' lives just to ensure our numbers look shiny and neat.

What I would do, in their situation, is re-evaluate exactly why I'm playing this game in the first place; is it to control and dominate? Is it to be protected from all harm? (Is there a difference between the two?) Is it to beat people up and take their stuff? Is it to evaluate the possibilities presented by each situation and formulate a strategy that will advance my team's interests? Is it to innovate new theories and new strategies of gameplay, and prove said theories empirically? Is it to have fricking fun? And how can I play the game in such a way that everyone else can also play the game in an enjoyable way?

Right now, their answer seems to be to advance their teams interests... all the way to the logical conclusion of that, which is to dominate and control, and be protected from all harm. Which is a goal that cannot ever be compatible with any other player not enslaved to their will. Which, I desperately point out, is NOT good for their interests, since success in that endeavor precludes the possibility of having anyone to play with, which makes the game boring for everyone, NPO most definitely included. I would have them re-evaluate and re-define their interests from "protect ourselves from everyone at all costs" to "have fun with the game and play with other players". That doesn't exclude protecting themselves, but putting fun ahead of defense means that fun can be had by all, whereas putting defense first means fun can essentially be had by none.

Well, none other than complete nutjobs like me, but relatively few are quite as comfortable with getting rolled as I am.

[Avakael]

I sorta get where you're coming from, Scarf, but I don't see that here. Only time I've truly seen it work out that way was when I was playing a Russian clone of a much older nation sim. The playerbase was about 50/50 English/Russian. A lot of the Russians felt that us English speakers didn't belong there. Took them 5 or 6 years to get rid of us, but by that time, the admin had abandoned the game and not communicated with the players for at least 2 or 3 years.

In this case, I can't even quite compare it to EMC/old Syndisphere (i.e. t$, TKR, BK, Guardian, Mensa). That group wound up fighting the same war 3 or 4 times before we eventually decided that a; we were bored of it, and b; we were unlikely to win the next time it happened, so we voluntarily splintered. While looking back, there were indeed secret treaties and whatnot that would have come into play should the other side sought revenge, in the end, EMC successfully broke up. This war has significantly different sides to any previous war, even Knightfall; while I wouldn't be surprised to see many of the same parties facing off again, there's nothing yet to suggest that the next war will be identical.

[Sketchy]

10 minutes ago, Avakael said:

I sorta get where you're coming from, Scarf, but I don't see that here. Only time I've truly seen it work out that way was when I was playing a Russian clone of a much older nation sim. The playerbase was about 50/50 English/Russian. A lot of the Russians felt that us English speakers didn't belong there. Took them 5 or 6 years to get rid of us, but by that time, the admin had abandoned the game and not communicated with the players for at least 2 or 3 years.

In this case, I can't even quite compare it to EMC/old Syndisphere (i.e. t$, TKR, BK, Guardian, Mensa). That group wound up fighting the same war 3 or 4 times before we eventually decided that a; we were bored of it, and b; we were unlikely to win the next time it happened, so we voluntarily splintered. While looking back, there were indeed secret treaties and whatnot that would have come into play should the other side sought revenge, in the end, EMC successfully broke up. This war has significantly different sides to any previous war, even Knightfall; while I wouldn't be surprised to see many of the same parties facing off again, there's nothing yet to suggest that the next war will be identical.

Its funny, while you guys all meme about how the EMC split was fake and how big and bad TKR is.

Who was it who brought that to the forefront and spent months shitting on TKR and co for doing it and then got rolled for it? TGH and KT.

Who was involved in that fake split, with many of the same government as now? The Syndicate.

The rest of you sat back and watched with bemusement then bravely dogpiled them after us. Then you plotted to do it AGAIN, apparently with the justification that TKR is a threat to you, despite having just had the entire game roll them.

Unfortunately, t$ isn't what it used to be. Your washed up, can't fight anymore, can't lead anymore, and went from being one of this biggest players in the games history to a little sockpuppet NPO sends out to do its bidding and hit the upper tier alliances. 

Anyway I will not take up anymore of your time, t$ clearly needs that time to coordinate because they can't hit for shit apparently. 44 wars lmfao 

[Sir Scarfalot]

1 minute ago, Avakael said:

I sorta get where you're coming from, Scarf, but I don't see that here. Only time I've truly seen it work out that way was when I was playing a Russian clone of a much older nation sim. The playerbase was about 50/50 English/Russian. A lot of the Russians felt that us English speakers didn't belong there. Took them 5 or 6 years to get rid of us, but by that time, the admin had abandoned the game and not communicated with the players for at least 2 or 3 years.

In this case, I can't even quite compare it to EMC/old Syndisphere (i.e. t$, TKR, BK, Guardian, Mensa). That group wound up fighting the same war 3 or 4 times before we eventually decided that a; we were bored of it, and b; we were unlikely to win the next time it happened, so we voluntarily splintered. While looking back, there were indeed secret treaties and whatnot that would have come into play should the other side sought revenge, in the end, EMC successfully broke up. This war has significantly different sides to any previous war, even Knightfall; while I wouldn't be surprised to see many of the same parties facing off again, there's nothing yet to suggest that the next war will be identical.

Our experiences are completely different then; I've literally never seen a game that didn't end with one group desperately holding onto power and forcing out all competition, even unto the point of complete boredom and detriment to their own side. I've led alliances where our one major player literally owned something like 50% of the game's economy and definitely owned about 50% of the game's military, I've led rebellions against a cabal of 3 players that literally forced our nations to delete every week after we rerolled (the game mechanics permitted that), I've allied with hegemonies that projected power into all corners of the game map, I've fought exploiters and allied with exploiters (our enemies were exploiting too at that point, the admin just stopped giving a damn). I've made meme strategies that made me literally invincible, I've seen toxicity that I sincerely hope you wouldn't believe. But for all that, I've never once seen any game escape the pattern of people wanting to be protected, at any cost, and therefore consolidate around players with the same motivations and paranoia. And when they do, and I refuse to play along, they feel threatened by me... and the war becomes us versus them, with no room for quarter. No negotiation possible, no peace, only betrayal, war, and ultimately stagnation and massive player exodus. As I've said, I'm apocalyptically bad at FA.

Also it's never even taken 5 years for the whole process to happen.

Now, sure, EMC definitely broke up. That was unprecedented in my experience, and it shows that sphere breakups are indeed more than a theoretical possibility in this game and this environment at least... but when we get shit like N$O declaring war in support of BK when they have no defensive reason to and have supposedly split from them, that causes irreparable damage to the possiblity of trusting that such a split as the EMC split can again happen. Now, sure, there was the same speculation that EMC hadn't really split... but here, we've got actual actions speaking far louder than words ever could. My concern is that once theres a substantial breakdown in trust it would take a complete sucker to believe that any split could ever be legitimate. Fool us once, and all that. And once the trust no longer exists, any split, even a legitimate one, has to be assumed not to have happened, and thus it de-facto hasn't. No breakup can happen, which means no difference in the war fronts can happen, and thus we're back to fighting the same war 3 or 4 times before we get bored of it, only this time without any way out of our doom.

Endgame.

[Lu Xun]

You're all a bunch of retards if you don't think ex-IQ elements will get bored and turn on each other eventually. But they won't start with each other until they're done with you, and the severe salt we see is basically saying "Knightfall III, kthxbai".

 

TBH, the conditions for this war coming to fruition came when Ripper had the bright idea to form Chaos and Adrienne hopped along with it. Until then, it was very likely that Syndi and IQ might have gone to loggerheads and TKR could have played kingmaker, but TKR seemed to have wanted to move early instead of trying to avoid making itself a target or aiming to tank the hit.

 

Of a separate game, someone said that things were cyclical, and that when people have too much order, they'll want chaos, and when they have too much chaos, they'll want order. The game has been in a state of relative chaos for many years, and it's likely that order will be dominant for quite a few years as well. Then that order will become boring and the transition will once again revert to chaos. But to put Chaos as an impediment to the great transition is just, as the Chinese might say, ignoring the 势 (shi4 strategic potential, strategic trend) and setting oneself up for disaster.

 

===

 

Put another way, what later became IQ had to put up with Syndisphere and TKR-sphere's BS hegemony for years before the situation finally broke down. If you're not willing to put up with something similar, should we begin talking about Brave and Beautiful KETOG?

Edited June 20, 2019 by Inst

[Sir Scarfalot]

5 minutes ago, Inst said:

-bla bla bla-

Dude, "ex-IQ" elements declared war in support of each other despite having every reason not to, including preserving resources and preserving the facade of being split. And EMC split of their own accord, not through IQ's pressure, so tell me: Why is it that IQ would split now, especially if they haven't before?

[Shadowthrone]

20 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Dude, "ex-IQ" elements declared war in support of each other despite having every reason not to, including preserving resources and preserving the facade of being split. And EMC split of their own accord, not through IQ's pressure, so tell me: Why is it that IQ would split now, especially if they haven't before?

tS' reasons have been quite clear from the start. I mean you can debate the reasons, but outright ignoring those reasons is hilarious and short sighted. Once again, if NPO and IQ were still a thing, hitting Guardian/GoB would be the last place you find us. 

And its funny you're giving me a low-down on risk, given we've done far more riskier things in this game than most other folks. Giving up IQ and a our allies in BK, to start on a different project, while we had won our first official war, is a good start  

[Lu Xun]

3 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Dude, "ex-IQ" elements declared war in support of each other despite having every reason not to, including preserving resources and preserving the facade of being split. And EMC split of their own accord, not through IQ's pressure, so tell me: Why is it that IQ would split now, especially if they haven't before?

Chaos KERTOG was qualified to take out T$NPO if Chaos KERTOG had successfully suppressed BK. It's well-known that BK-spheres has tons of alliances that are effectively BK protectorates; i.e, these alliances suck at war and would fall apart under sustained pressure. If BK-sphere had been suppressed properly, so that protectorate assets would begin to die off and BK would permanently be blockade-chained, Chaos KERTOG, excuse me, Chaos KETOG (Rose isn't even needed for this) could move against T$NPO and there would be NOTHING T$NPO could do against it.

BK-sphere and NPOT$ had a rough balance of power. By forming a coalition strong enough to take out BK-sphere, you created a new power center strong enough to take out NPOT$ as well. You, for a short span, actually created something sufficient for T$NPO to move against.

[Shadowthrone]

I mean if the two of them combined for this, whats stop them from doing it again and this time coming for us? Almost seems like a valid threat to move against, and here we are restraining ourselves from declaring on everybody and picking a specific target for a specific purpose. How evil folks! 

[Clive]

Honestly pleasantly surprised to see actual politics here. See, without NPO around you wouldn't have a game to defend: you lot would just be masturbating over game mechanics instead of developing a nice bit of animus.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Cliveiudeaus

[Sketchy]

3 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

I mean if the two of them combined for this, whats stop them from doing it again and this time coming for us? Almost seems like a valid threat to move against, and here we are restraining ourselves from declaring on everybody and picking a specific target for a specific purpose. How evil folks! 

Yes, because now the likelihood of that is much lower.....

If your concern was about TKR you'd have hit TKR.

Your spin ain't working fam, your intentions are obvious now.

[Shadowthrone]

2 minutes ago, Sketchy said:

Yes, because now the likelihood of that is much lower.....

If your concern was about TKR you'd have hit TKR.

Your spin ain't working fam, your intentions are obvious now.

I mean if we wanted to move against all of you to defend BK, we would have. We haven't, that is my point. The existence of a combination of spheres at any given time could be construed as a valid threat, and we've shown restraint, rather than taking the cynical approach there. We didn't. We narrowed the scope and showed restraint so w/e. 

[Lu Xun]

1 minute ago, Sketchy said:

Yes, because now the likelihood of that is much lower.....

If your concern was about TKR you'd have hit TKR.

Your spin ain't working fam, your intentions are obvious now.

Game map:

 

Rose Chaos KETOG Arrgh

 

BK-sphere T$NPO

 

Neutrals that matter: Chained to BK-sphere or T$NPO. Whining is a nice propaganda effort when there's someone actually listening to you.

 

Meanwhile, TKR's suppressed assets continue to declare out on raidables as KETOG spams the forums.

[Sketchy]

1 minute ago, Shadowthrone said:

I mean if we wanted to move against all of you to defend BK, we would have. We haven't, that is my point. The existence of a combination of spheres at any given time could be construed as a valid threat, and we've shown restraint, rather than taking the cynical approach there. We didn't. We narrowed the scope and showed restraint so w/e. 

Yet. 

They also said they had no input in the plan and then proceeded to carry it out so I don't think anyone believes your assurances.

But good job avoiding the multiple points I made across like 3 posts and focusing in on one. That really inspires confidence in your word lmfao.

 

[Shadowthrone]

1 minute ago, Sketchy said:

Yet. 

They also said they had no input in the plan and then proceeded to carry it out so I don't think anyone believes your assurances.

But good job avoiding the multiple points I made across like 3 posts and focusing in on one. That really inspires confidence in your word lmfao.

 

I mean you quoted my post and I responded in kind lol. 

I mean opportunism is opportunism and tS does not deny that hitting GoB/Guardian is opportunistic on their part right now. The reason is there and quite clear lel. 

[Lu Xun]

I think the solution is that people like Sketchy and Sir Scarfalot are time travelers from a magical future wherein everyone hates IQ and can do something about it. They're just shocked they're still in 2019 where IQ hate is considered so 2017 and the alliances that matter have already voted on what to do with this war.

[Avakael]

33 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Dude, "ex-IQ" elements declared war in support of each other despite having every reason not to, including preserving resources and preserving the facade of being split. And EMC split of their own accord, not through IQ's pressure, so tell me: Why is it that IQ would split now, especially if they haven't before?

We've yet to even get to that point of the discussion, because you can't get past the theory that this is all an IQ plot, and we can't prove the non-existence of any such plot by showing you 4 months of logs of Thanos and Hilmes (and y'all seemed very set on it being Hilmes) discussing the weather. So instead, the discussion so far has been an absolute abortion of an Alliance Affairs thread that hasn't seen the participation of anyone from either NPO or t$ government that knows the exact reasons why we're here; I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to touch it.

Behind the scenes, Buorhann told us that t$ is quite literally dead to him, and the Syndicate's embassy on your server has been closed before anyone was prepared to sit down and even try and have any significant conversation at all (while we were still organizing first strikes and counters). When I tried to restart the dialogue after the game-side stuff had quietened down, I was shown the door. Until things are calmed down, I'd be surprised if anyone else tried again.

Now you're here telling me that the game itself is at risk of death. Stopwatch reads 16 hours since the war started. I appreciate you have played an awful lot of browser based nation simulators, but you might just be putting the cart before the horse here.

[ReuKinChe]

I don't know much about the situation, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like realpolitik, or at least attempting to use it, results in zero-sum situations like this. What's the enemy of realpolitik? Idealism. I don't know how idealism could be injected into this game in a desirable manner, but it could be a good place to find solutions.

[Insert Name Here]

Lmfao, the e-laywering is priceless. Own it, y'all can try to spin it all you want, you just want security and to shut down any possible competition.

The attempts at pretending you have some noble goal just make it even more pathetic, you effectively contradict yourselves and do the same you have accused former EMC of, grow a pair and at least have the decency to admit y'all are scared of any possible competiton by coming together in a huge blob against 2 smaller spheres that were reking each other.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Insert Name Here

[Hodor]

In as few as words possible, here's my problem since we are airing grievances.

1. t$ is acting in self interest to pursue a goal it laid out in Knightfall: no god-tier consolidation.

1a. Fine, but I am curious what god-tier consolidation looks like. We were in a war just a few days ago with different alliances. If for nothing more than the sake of optics, why didn't you hit KETOG's whales then?

2. KETOG/CHAOS are anti game killing consolidation and are now consolidated

2a. We have no paper and are cooperating in ONE war together. If that is the definition of consolidation, you're gonna need to explain that to me. Ignoring all the other history of how much we've been at TKR's throats for well over a year, and Grumpy's very obvious hatred of CoS.

3. This is war, this is what you wanted, this is fun.

3a. What we wanted was new war. War against new opponents. Safety nets of the treaty web gone. We've tried to pioneer it. Soup's FARK/WTF offensive. Our offensive on CHAOS. This war has the very real possibility of looking a hell of a lot like countless other wars of the past.

 

I'm not going to address any other points at the moment because they all pertain to the eventuality of NPO entering. I will hold out some hope that that does not happen, but once it does I will address the others.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Hodor
typo

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, Hodor said:

In as few as words possible, here's my problem since we are airing grievances.

1. t$ is acting in self interest to pursue a goal it laid out in Knightfall: no god-tier consolidation.

1a. Fine, but I am curious what god-tier consolidation looks like. We were in a war just a few days ago with different alliances. If for nothing more than the sake of optics, why didn't you hit KETOG's whales then?

2. KETOG/CHAOS are anti game killing consolidation and are not consolidated

2a. We have no paper and are cooperating in ONE war together. If that is the definition of consolidation, you're gonna need to explain that to me. Ignoring all the other history of how much we've been at TKR's throats for well over a year, and Grumpy's very obvious hatred of CoS.

3. This is war, this is what you wanted, this is fun.

3a. What we wanted was new war. War against new opponents. Safety nets of the treaty web gone. We've tried to pioneer it. Soup's FARK/WTF offensive. Our offensive on CHAOS. This war has the very real possibility of looking a hell of a lot like countless other wars of the past.

 

I'm not going to address any other points at the moment because they all pertain to the eventuality of NPO entering. I will hold out some hope that that does not happen, but once it does I will address the others.

1. KETOG on its own isn't a huge threat. KETOG, Chaos and the rest of this coalition combining makes it a huge threat. If you can combine to take down one large sphere, you are capable of doing so again and so you paint a target on your back. 

2. The alliances have prior history of being in coalitions. Both spheres share hostility towards N$O sphere. Makes you a threat. As above you've shown you will combine to hit someone if you have the opportunity.

3. All wars are the same, there is a Victor and a loser. In all cases one side always has an advantage of some kind. The only time you will get a war that looks different is if you plan the war against each other together. Even matchups, no one getting the advantage of first strike, no tier advantages etc.

[Lu Xun]

22 minutes ago, Hodor said:

In as few as words possible, here's my problem since we are airing grievances.

1. t$ is acting in self interest to pursue a goal it laid out in Knightfall: no god-tier consolidation.

1a. Fine, but I am curious what god-tier consolidation looks like. We were in a war just a few days ago with different alliances. If for nothing more than the sake of optics, why didn't you hit KETOG's whales then?

2. KETOG/CHAOS are anti game killing consolidation and are not consolidated

2a. We have no paper and are cooperating in ONE war together. If that is the definition of consolidation, you're gonna need to explain that to me. Ignoring all the other history of how much we've been at TKR's throats for well over a year, and Grumpy's very obvious hatred of CoS.

3. This is war, this is what you wanted, this is fun.

3a. What we wanted was new war. War against new opponents. Safety nets of the treaty web gone. We've tried to pioneer it. Soup's FARK/WTF offensive. Our offensive on CHAOS. This war has the very real possibility of looking a hell of a lot like countless other wars of the past.

 

I'm not going to address any other points at the moment because they all pertain to the eventuality of NPO entering. I will hold out some hope that that does not happen, but once it does I will address the others.

1b. Because you had attacked BK and were distracted by the pretty sounds they made while being destroyed. If T$NPO had attacked during your war, they had no guarantee that the apparently divided sides involved in a "friendly" war would not coalesce and turn on them instead.

2b. I think you guys during the war declaration admitted that you had no real animosity toward each other, and when you consider the shared animosity of your coalition (NPO is NPO, Syndisphere was the first half of SynDIQ that rolled TKR, KETOG hates NPO, T$-TGH relations as shown above had completely collapsed), there was sufficient reason to feel threat and intervene against such.

3b. In a way, you're being a nuisance to everyone involved. Not everyone likes war. Some people like power (as you might accuse certain parties), others like economic accumulation (bank operators), others like raiding (Arrgh), a certain person likes endless nuclear weapons accumulation (Fraggle Rock). Treaty webs vs treatyless is basically a question of how offensive / defensive an alliance is. The players who emphasize war, of course, first, never pick on stronger targets (you're not good at war if your war stats are shit; this whole "I like to be rolled" thing was pioneered by NPO and is only recently coming into vogue), and second, can be irritating to people with other playstyles.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Inst