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18 minutes ago, Squeegee said:

However, we plotted against IQ because your consolidation was in no way healthy for the game, amassing the entire active lower tier and encroaching your way into the middle tier was nothing more than a choke hold. As an alliance leader, my ultimate goal is to ensure the health of this game remains dynamic and interesting for all players, not just for my own community. This seems to be lost on many alliance leaders, who look to "win" the game. This cementing of power is absolutely atrocious and will lead to nothing but a dead game. What happens when you do win, when you become untouchable, when you police the game to ensure that your alliance stays? Activity dies, players give up but, hey - at least you're number one right? Number one in a game where no one remains active due to your actions? Sounds amazing. These most recent actions by NPO have done nothing but re-solidify my beliefs that not only are you out here for your personal gain but that you truly don't care about the consequences of your actions. Good luck with creating your future hegemony.
 

Yet its okay to amass consolidation when you do it? Upper tier consolidation isnt killing the game, but lower/middle is? 

So as an alliance leader your view of dynamic is getting a coalition of multiple spheres together to take down BK-sphere. Im sorry but this is what alliances who try to consolidate their power do. No one either looks to "win" this game. They compete to the best of their abilities. If the others can't compete that is on them to work harder to bring the dominant side down. The thing that will kill the game is people giving up because one alliance or the other is on top at some point. The dominant alliance has changed so many times in P&W. Heck NPO, who you say is in it to win it has only reigned since Knightfall. 

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15 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Yet its okay to amass consolidation when you do it? Upper tier consolidation isnt killing the game, but lower/middle is? 

So as an alliance leader your view of dynamic is getting a coalition of multiple spheres together to take down BK-sphere. Im sorry but this is what alliances who try to consolidate their power do. No one either looks to "win" this game. They compete to the best of their abilities. If the others can't compete that is on them to work harder to bring the dominant side down. The thing that will kill the game is people giving up because one alliance or the other is on top at some point. The dominant alliance has changed so many times in P&W. Heck NPO, who you say is in it to win it has only reigned since Knightfall. 

I can't tell if you're arguing for the Coalition forces or against?

Two Blocs who where perfectly content knocking the shit out of one another, at least I was having a blast, get these logs about a probably the largest and somewhat dominant alliances making a plot to attack them, and then decide "Ya know. Instead of fighting each other about this, maybe we should team up" still at a disadvantage, "and roll into these guys instead of waiting for them to try and powerhouse their way in." So yes. In the face of massive odds against, it's pretty dynamic to charge at an enemy that handed out a CB on a silver platter. Ignoring all the other drama.

No one's giving up because one alliance or another is on top. If anyone's giving up, it's because these people keep proving over and over that despite the opposition, they still dance to the same song and tune as they always have. Which is boring as shit. Like, cmon kids, that's enough of the cha-cha slide, please learn the douggie, or at least the boot scoot boogie.

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3 minutes ago, Pasky Darkfire said:

I can't tell if you're arguing for the Coalition forces or against?

Two Blocs who where perfectly content knocking the shit out of one another, at least I was having a blast, get these logs about a probably the largest and somewhat dominant alliances making a plot to attack them, and then decide "Ya know. Instead of fighting each other about this, maybe we should team up" still at a disadvantage, "and roll into these guys instead of waiting for them to try and powerhouse their way in." So yes. In the face of massive odds against, it's pretty dynamic to charge at an enemy that handed out a CB on a silver platter. Ignoring all the other drama.

No one's giving up because one alliance or another is on top. If anyone's giving up, it's because these people keep proving over and over that despite the opposition, they still dance to the same song and tune as they always have. Which is boring as shit. Like, cmon kids, that's enough of the cha-cha slide, please learn the douggie, or at least the boot scoot boogie.

What I'm alluding to is that multi spheres the way your coalition wants them to work is not achievable. There will always be onr alliance who becomes dominant and then others will work together to take it down. If you really wanted dynamic multi spheres Chaos + Rose would have hit BK sphere and KETOG would have hit N$O. For multi spheres to work you need no collaboration between the spheres, win, lose or draw you stick to your own spheres. Collaborating with another sphere brings us back to the same old way the P&W has always operated. 

It's fairly reasonable to predict Chaos, KETOG and Rose together, with the advantage of first strike will overcome BK-sphere. You have the upper tier advantage and overall the better activity in your membership. There is no "against massive odds", you were odds on favourites when you attacked. 

At this stage it doesn't look like anyone has changed the tune they dance to. In my opinion the best way for real dynamic multi spheres would be to draw spheres out of a hat or similar. So in example you'd have one pot of whale tier alliances, one pot of mid tier alliances and one pot of lower tier alliances. Every sphere gets one of each. It is then up to you to develop Protectorates to strengthen your sphere. Ultimately this would fail too, because people will never let grudges go. The same people who hate NPO/BK/KT/etc will always hate them as has been proven over time. That's not to add to the fact people will leave alliances to go to different alliances which will likely alter the balance. 

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18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

For multi spheres to work you need no collaboration between the spheres, win, lose or draw you stick to your own spheres. Collaborating with another sphere brings us back to the same old way the P&W has always operated. 

I think you’re saying that collaborating with an alliance in a war is as bad as signing treaties with that alliance? In which case, does Arrrgh! just not exist to you?

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7 minutes ago, ArcKnox said:

NPO: At this stage it doesn't look like anyone has changed the tune they dance to.

Also NPO: We're still going to plot with/pledge to defend BK

Continue the circle jerk all you like. It's water off a ducks back to me. It's still stands true that no matter how much you talk about wanting multi spheres, your one opportunity to prove that you collaborated with another sphere. I get that in the logs they spoke about hitting chaos and spoke about trying to get another sphere to hit KETOG. I also get that it is your right to team up to hit the ones who were driving those plots. Ultimately it's not the dynamic mini sphere idea you all allude to. Since we broke with BK we haven't plotted with them on anything. Sure us hitting TKR by default helps BK. It's just the way the chips fall. 

11 minutes ago, Macharius said:

I think you’re saying that collaborating with an alliance in a war is as bad as signing treaties with that alliance? In which case, does Arrrgh! just not exist to you?

Well it is exactly like having an MDP or MDoAP with each other if you collaborate in a war.

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8 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Well it is exactly like having an MDP or MDoAP with each other if you collaborate in a war.

So by this logic, again, Arrrgh! has an MDP/MDoAP with everyone?

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1 minute ago, Macharius said:

So by this logic, again, Arrrgh! has an MDP/MDoAP with everyone?

If you are collaborating on a war with someone it is essentially like having an MDP/MDoAP with them. I'm not saying it carries over after the war. Arghh is really a completely different alliance though that doesn't play politics in anyway the same as the vast majority of alliances. They are essentially an anomaly rather than be comparable in this situation.

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39 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It's still stands true that no matter how much you talk about wanting multi spheres, your one opportunity to prove that you collaborated with another sphere. I get that in the logs they spoke about hitting chaos and spoke about trying to get another sphere to hit KETOG. I also get that it is your right to team up to hit the ones who were driving those plots. Ultimately it's not the dynamic mini sphere idea you all allude to. Since we broke with BK we haven't plotted with them on anything. Sure us hitting TKR by default helps BK. It's just the way the chips fall. 

Two Spheres that said they had basically nothing to do with one another anymore, NPO and BK, who broke treaties with one another to try and do something different go right back to the same old thing. But Chaos and Kettogg, who where separate BLOCS, who fought a war against one another before all this, with no previous collaboration defend themselves against a threat that presented itself. Okay, bud. Keep drinking that Flavor-aid, because whew.

Also. Those two statements contradict one another. "We never plotted anything with them on anything" But you just said about the two spheres collaborating to hit two blocs. Like. Pick one, my friend.

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I love how this thread has basically dissolved into Roq dropping peoples names and them having to come back to the forums to set the record straight. Glad to see I'm not the only one who has to endure this.

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Are we really using arguments with Mensa, VE, and Zodiac in them? We're bringing back arguments from Trail of fricking Tiers? How are plots from 2 years ago relevant to this current war,  in 2019? 

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1 minute ago, Ryan1 said:

Are we really starting arguments with Mensa, VE, and Zodiac in them? We're bringing back arguments from Trail of fricking Tiers? How are plots from 2 years ago relevant to this current war,  in 2019? 

Clearly, NPO brought back IQ for that continuity. 

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24 minutes ago, Pasky Darkfire said:

Two Spheres that said they had basically nothing to do with one another anymore, NPO and BK, who broke treaties with one another to try and do something different go right back to the same old thing. But Chaos and Kettogg, who where separate BLOCS, who fought a war against one another before all this, with no previous collaboration defend themselves against a threat that presented itself. Okay, bud. Keep drinking that Flavor-aid, because whew.

Also. Those two statements contradict one another. "We never plotted anything with them on anything" But you just said about the two spheres collaborating to hit two blocs. Like. Pick one, my friend.

Did you even read what I posted or do you simply skim and make up the rest?

BK-sphere discussing trying to get N$O to fight a war with KETOG does not mean N$O plotted with them. 

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1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Sure us hitting TKR by default helps BK. It's just the way the chips fall.

Oh god, here NPO goes again, claiming that they weren't trying to help BK and it's just coincidence or their own war or whatever shit they want to say now.

 

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13 hours ago, Roquentin said:

                  

Let's move on to CoS, so there's Manthrax, you know how he's always felt, yes?  So then we have Ripper, Ripper has always been semi-hostile and would troll us consistently and without prompting. "Let's see how you do if we get people to mass blockade"  was one of his previous lines. Ripper during the war revealed he never had  fighting upper tier consolidation  as his goal so I'm left wondering what his goals were, and earlier tried to argue TKR would never give into anything,  then immediately after the war , he tried to make me to do something FA-wise in which he was not a principal party. Of course, anyone would stall at such a scenario especially when he declined participation. As i did not do what CoS wanted,they went to allying our enemy when allying us was off the table.  Keep in mind before the war we had several overtures from TCW and we chose to go forward with the Knightfall plan anyway, so it was clear we were being left on the hook for it all with Partisan's disappearances and Prefontaine's departure. This is coupled with the distribution of the 7.5 year old recording around CoS.

My God man.

If anyone other than Roq wants me to respond to any of this, hit me up. If not, feel free to file it under "the usual nonsense".

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Slaughter the shits of the world. They poison the air you breathe.

 

~ William S. Burroughs

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2 hours ago, durmij said:

I love how this thread has basically dissolved into Roq dropping peoples names and them having to come back to the forums to set the record straight. Glad to see I'm not the only one who has to endure this.

I'm glad I'm irrelevant enough to be able to just ignore all the walls of text

Dec 26 18:48:22 <JacobH[Arrgh]>    God your worse the grealind >.>

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Is it just me or did anyone else notice that the leak, the war, the drama didn't start until a certain snake came out of VM.....

 

Just moving the peices around his chess board. 

Edited by Justin076
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Chief Financial Officer of The Syndicate

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15 hours ago, Tiberius said:

BK-sphere discussing trying to get N$O to fight a war with KETOG does not mean N$O plotted with them. 

I'd like to know how you know that it wasn't plotted? Does NPO just let their non-gov members in on all the planning meetings? Because those leaked logs didn't look to me like just idle chatter and discussions. That was a pretty well fleshed out plan of action. With a date of attack. Which implies active participation in the plotting, or "Discussions."

I'd really believe you that it was just BK-sphere discussing trying to get N$O to fight if it wasn't for a couple of things. 1. The plan wasn't fleshed out with targets and listing who was hitting who, and 2. There wasn't a date listed of when they where going to initiate the attack. If the leaked log was "BK and NPO should plan to hit Chaos and Kettogg lol" and some back and forth about who could take who and whatever, I'd say it was idle discussion about a possible future war sometime later in the year or whatever. But as soon as Targets where posted and dates where assigned, someone plotted with someone. Maybe you just weren't privvy to the "discussions."

Also, arguing word choices is lol.

Me skimming your writing is pretty accurate because you've now suggested drawing spheres out of a hat, Do we use marbles for that?, for some reason. And that everyone has an MDP with everyone while they collaborate in wars. Arrgh is apparently the master of War MDPs, and you said something about water off a ducks ass. I don't know what water animals have to do with anything.

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1 hour ago, Pasky Darkfire said:

I'd like to know how you know that it wasn't plotted? Does NPO just let their non-gov members in on all the planning meetings? Because those leaked logs didn't look to me like just idle chatter and discussions. That was a pretty well fleshed out plan of action. With a date of attack. Which implies active participation in the plotting, or "Discussions."

I'd really believe you that it was just BK-sphere discussing trying to get N$O to fight if it wasn't for a couple of things. 1. The plan wasn't fleshed out with targets and listing who was hitting who, and 2. There wasn't a date listed of when they where going to initiate the attack. If the leaked log was "BK and NPO should plan to hit Chaos and Kettogg lol" and some back and forth about who could take who and whatever, I'd say it was idle discussion about a possible future war sometime later in the year or whatever. But as soon as Targets where posted and dates where assigned, someone plotted with someone. Maybe you just weren't privvy to the "discussions."

Also, arguing word choices is lol.

Me skimming your writing is pretty accurate because you've now suggested drawing spheres out of a hat, Do we use marbles for that?, for some reason. And that everyone has an MDP with everyone while they collaborate in wars. Arrgh is apparently the master of War MDPs, and you said something about water off a ducks ass. I don't know what water animals have to do with anything.

I mean if our crime is that we were approached, guilty as charged, similar to how almost every sphere approached us to roll someone or the other.

If the plan was fleshed out to have us, this would be the first I am hearing of it, given there has been zero contact with tCW and the rest of tC regarding the war plans.

As someone privy to those discussions, it’s quite easy to answer your speculation with regards to their approach.

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42 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

If the plan was fleshed out to have us, this would be the first I am hearing of it, given there has been zero contact with tCW and the rest of tC regarding the war plans.

As someone privy to those discussions, it’s quite easy to answer your speculation with regards to their approach.

Ohhhh. I've made it past the bootlicker and gotten someone attached to a boot. Cool.

As someone who was privy to such discussion, how did they approach you? I feel like they wouldn't do it in the regular way like everyone else would.

tCW leaked the plans, but given my impression of them from the... the massive amount vitriol in the forums, I would doubt that the plans were originally theirs. But who leaked the plans isn't who approached you, right?

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23 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Yet its okay to amass consolidation when you do it? Upper tier consolidation isnt killing the game, but lower/middle is? 

So as an alliance leader your view of dynamic is getting a coalition of multiple spheres together to take down BK-sphere. Im sorry but this is what alliances who try to consolidate their power do. No one either looks to "win" this game. They compete to the best of their abilities. If the others can't compete that is on them to work harder to bring the dominant side down. The thing that will kill the game is people giving up because one alliance or the other is on top at some point. The dominant alliance has changed so many times in P&W. Heck NPO, who you say is in it to win it has only reigned since Knightfall. 

what upper tier consolidation? unless you're insisting that GoB, Guardian, CoS, TKR, Rose, SK are going to keep teaming up to fight when 87% of those were literally blowing the shit out of each other right before literal leaks of a war planned mid-june with target AAs listed and literally leaked mid-june???? (Also, rather stretching to call TKR upper tier, but since we have one, I'll include it)
To reiterate, the problem with BK sphere+N$O being allied is that each of those spheres has more cities, members, etc than Chaos+KETOG+Rose combined. If you can't count, I'm sorry, but I can't help you there. 
 

23 hours ago, Tiberius said:

What I'm alluding to is that multi spheres the way your coalition wants them to work is not achievable. There will always be onr alliance who becomes dominant and then others will work together to take it down. If you really wanted dynamic multi spheres Chaos + Rose would have hit BK sphere and KETOG would have hit N$O. For multi spheres to work you need no collaboration between the spheres, win, lose or draw you stick to your own spheres. Collaborating with another sphere brings us back to the same old way the P&W has always operated. 

It's fairly reasonable to predict Chaos, KETOG and Rose together, with the advantage of first strike will overcome BK-sphere. You have the upper tier advantage and overall the better activity in your membership. There is no "against massive odds", you were odds on favourites when you attacked. 

At this stage it doesn't look like anyone has changed the tune they dance to. In my opinion the best way for real dynamic multi spheres would be to draw spheres out of a hat or similar. So in example you'd have one pot of whale tier alliances, one pot of mid tier alliances and one pot of lower tier alliances. Every sphere gets one of each. It is then up to you to develop Protectorates to strengthen your sphere. Ultimately this would fail too, because people will never let grudges go. The same people who hate NPO/BK/KT/etc will always hate them as has been proven over time. That's not to add to the fact people will leave alliances to go to different alliances which will likely alter the balance. 

So, we have you shooting down something that hasn't even been tried because of you. Congrats, that's like shooting yourself in the foot and then complaining about a bullet being in your foot. Also, why is KETOG hitting N$O at that point? the leaks suggested N$O in on KETOG, but no assigned targets and dates unlike BK sphere. We literally collaborated with KETOG (jesus frick, you have me defending KT in public, which still tastes like barf) because Chaos+Rose+KETOG has fewer cities, members, etc than BK sphere alone. From a pure numbers perspective, we shouldn't be able to win this at all. 
Clap, clap. You're own econ program, which I have been on record for years now is going to lower your activity and stifle your growth, thereby literally resulting in this exact situation, has in fact resulted in this exact situation. So, either change your econ program, or stop complaining about the results of said program. I said this exact same thing in NPO's first time when NPO folk were complaining on the forums about activity differences. Nearly 3 years later, and I get to say it again. It's almost like people don't learn from history.
drawing spheres out of hat wouldn't work at all, unless it happened to result in spheres that could trust, cooperate with, and like each other (unlikely and improbable tbh). That being said, that doesn't make it impossible for multiple spheres to work. Take for example the situation before NPO and especially before T$ entered this particular war. We had functionally 3 spheres (and more logistically, at least 5, as KETOG, Rose, and chaos are teaming up to deal with a direct threat to their existence, which was shown in a leak with targets and a planned blitz period of mid-june getting dropped in mid-june and were literally beating each other up for a month before that) of chaos+Rose+KETOG, N$O, and BK-sphere. If N$O had stayed out completely, which many of us here have established as the most economically and politically advantageous move for N$O, no matter who wins, we would indeed have at minimum a 3 sphere world, any suspicion of IQ continuing would've died (despite the polaris ODoAP), and we would have a multisphere system. Instead, because of NPO entering, all of that died. (Hell, T$ entering was problematic for that narrative surviving, but if they stuck to Guardian and Grumpy as their war dec stated, it probably would've survived)

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I don't sleep enough

Also, I am an Keynesian Utilitarian

Lastly, Hello world

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