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Endgame


Adrienne
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21 minutes ago, Mikey said:

I can appreciate you being honest about it, and OOC, I don't have a problem with people playing like that. I don't necessarily think its the ideal way to play,  but I don't think anybody is any worse of a person for doing so. There will, of course, always be people opposing this and that in the game - there has to be, for political reasons. And consolidating heavily is also going to make you a big target, by virtue of being the biggest threat. With BK being the size it is and having the inclination to attack us that it does, this war would have happened honesty or no. But I think a lot of the bitterness has been directed primarily towards NPO, with BK mostly receiving IC flack for its plans and the more traditional wartime arguments and shitposts. Granted BK leadership has largely dissipated from public sight, or I imagine they would be getting the same flak, at least if they espoused the same arguments as NPO.

In any case, a big part of why NPO is getting so much consternation is because of the lack of that honesty. It's not just that about consolidating a mass of alliances, but the fact they lie about it at every turn and make up conspiracies to try and justify their actions, all while playing the perpetual victim. NPO and BK want to maintain ties and use a large treaty structure as a game strategy? Fine. I believe you, and I OOC I recognize it as a strategy. We may fight against it, but when the tabs close and we leave our game personas behind, its mostly water under the bridge. It's when NPO come in, trying to claim there is no cooperation or attempt to consolidate more allies. Claiming they are acting purely defensively, because apparently Niz uses the wrong tone of voice when she tells people we have no plans to hit NPO, or because of some proof that only they have and can't ever show anybody. When they suggest that they need - not want, need - to hit us with overwhelming numbers because I guess we're meanies and no-lifers who are on our PCs all day, that they get shit.

People just get exasperated having good faith repaid with guile.

Everyone certainly opposed to it when IQ did it.  It got pretty beyond normal with wanting to roll anyone with treaties constantly.

I don't really know what honesty is lacking here. We intentionally cut ourselves off, limited our own fa projection, and met virtually every minisphere demand. Do you think our intervention gives us any additional influence? I had to deal with making a lot of sacrifices to be in the Syndisphere.  I don't think I said you're nolifers glued to the pc. some people are just more dedicated and will check the push notifications on their phones faster. You're going all hyperbolic.

Good faith my ass. I try to engage you in good faith and this is what I'm getting.  "They are bad people and dishonest". Why should anyone bother? 

 

14 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

@Roquentin - TGH/KT has fought against TKR and their allies technically 3 times before fighting BK (And Covenant) due to this plot they had recently.

Care to explain further what your stance is exactly?

(Just to clarify - 69 Day War, technically Knightfall with those you hired from us, and Surf’s Up)

Just saying, unlike those who claim it’d be boring to fight their previous allies, we fought TKR more than those who have a grudge against them in the past year.

I’m only using this as an example since it’s coming off that you’re arguing bias here onto us.

First off they hit you. I've been told several times you would have never been willing to hit them in the second if they had never hit you. KT went anti-IQ after ToT and stayed anti-IQ. TGH participated in the planning of AC.  Then you were willing to cooperate with TKR and co vs IQ. Then there was more interest in fighting the BK/cov group.

Does that explain it?

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24 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

First off they hit you. I've been told several times you would have never been willing to hit them in the second if they had never hit you. KT went anti-IQ after ToT and stayed anti-IQ. TGH participated in the planning of AC.  Then you were willing to cooperate with TKR and co vs IQ. Then there was more interest in fighting the BK/cov group.

Does that explain it?

We didn’t “participate” in planning AC.  We made it very clear we were hitting Vanguard whether they hit IQ or not.  Had we actually “participated” in planning AC as a whole, it would’ve gone much more different. (For example, none of that 6mo NAP bullshit)

That wasn’t our war to plan.

As for your reply, so what if they hit us first in 69 Day war.  Doesn’t take away the fact that we still fought against them.  Then we also had Oblivion, Empyrea, and individuals hired by you to help initiate against them in Knightfall and we initiated on them in Surf’s Up.

Thats 3 conflicts before you or anyone else in IQ was touched.

You had multiple opportunities.

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12 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Oh wow. Sketchy and Manthrax and their entire respective friend groups dislike me and call me a liar? That's really new to me.  Not like it has been the case for the past 3 year or so years.

Funny because I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you had actually broken up IQ and wanted to do something different and you repaid that by hitting the same old people pushing the same old excuses with the same old grudges with the same old allies.

Every single time the focus is away from you, you stick people in the ribs and wonder why they don't trust you?

You consistently misrepresent facts in the pursuit of your victim narrative at such an obvious scale that its difficult not to see it as anything other than a cynical ploy to garner sympathy from the unwitting and justify your own actions.

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
8 hours ago, Mikey said:

I can appreciate you being honest about it, and OOC, I don't have a problem with people playing like that. I don't necessarily think its the ideal way to play,  but I don't think anybody is any worse of a person for doing so. There will, of course, always be people opposing this and that in the game - there has to be, for political reasons. And consolidating heavily is also going to make you a big target, by virtue of being the biggest threat. With BK being so large and intending to attack us, this war would have happened honesty or no. But I think a lot of the bitterness has been directed primarily towards NPO, with BK mostly receiving IC flack for its plans and the more traditional wartime arguments and shitposts. Granted BK leadership has largely dissipated from public sight, or I imagine they would be getting the same flak, at least if they espoused the same arguments as NPO.

Still, a big part of why NPO is getting so much special consternation is because of the lack of that honesty. It's not just about consolidating a mass of alliances, but the fact they lie about it at every turn and make up conspiracies to try and justify their actions, all while playing the perpetual victim. NPO and BK want to maintain ties and use a large treaty structure as a game strategy? Fine. I believe you, and I recognize it as a strategy. We may fight against it, but when the tabs close and we leave our game personas behind, its mostly water under the bridge. NPO is getting so much shit because they try to claim there is no cooperation or attempt to consolidate more allies. Because they claim they are acting purely defensively because Niz didn't use the right tone of voice when saying we don't want conflict, or because of some proof that only they have and can't ever show anybody. Because they insist they need - not want, I could respect that - but need to take out a sphere half their size. Because of some nonsense about hundreds of  'high octane former gov' who have plotted against them for years and can only be dealt with by overwhelming numbers.

People just get exasperated having good faith repaid with guile.

See I do agree with you, I wish more people would say the truth, Such as we hit you as it was easy or we wanted to and not some bs reason of we felt we were going to get hit.

I think everyone knew this war was going to happen the moment TGH started baiting BK on the OWF way before KETOG hit Chaos, the leak from tCW was just the golden ticket needed for both KETOG and Chaos to hit BK, but lets take in to account that Rose clearly was building up beforehand so the war on BK was well planned out before the leak I feel, sure I could be wrong and no one will willing admit it.

I still to this day will say all paperless treaties should not be taken into account, such as in this war Rose for me just saw a chance to hit people with the support of two blocks, as we know Rose with its treaties as it stands (not paperless that no one can see and can be made up on the spot), now Rose had no valid CB unlikes Chaos and KETOG so at the end of this war and the peace that always follow, Rose hitting BK should be a valid CB for BK to hit Rose the only question that comes in to play does Rose have a paperless treaty with KETOG and/or Chaos and if so how is that any different to BK and NPO. Now I do not know if BK and NPO have a paperless and none of them will ever admit to having one if they do, but NPO entering this was is no different than Rose entering this war, I really do not care what reasons people enter the war as most of the time its just lies and made up stories lol, but if you are going to say IQ is still together as NPO entered its safe to say KETOG or Chaos has a paperless treaty with Rose.

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32 minutes ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

See I do agree with you, I wish more people would say the truth, Such as we hit you as it was easy or we wanted to and not some bs reason of we felt we were going to get hit.

I think everyone knew this war was going to happen the moment TGH started baiting BK on the OWF way before KETOG hit Chaos, the leak from tCW was just the golden ticket needed for both KETOG and Chaos to hit BK, ...

Right, because after getting our air forces and spies decimated in a blitz and a month of fighting, we were looking for an excuse to hit one of the largest alliance blocks back to back. Quit twisting the facts. You aren't the victims here. You got caught planning an attack on smaller spheres who were already fighting tooth and nail and are paying the price.

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Wine for courage, making love to a camp follower. Tomorrow the battalion leaves for Burgundy.
Wine for courage, and two hours of sleep before dawn. Thank you, thank you  recruiters

You've got wine and a camp follower..thank you, thank you, recruiters

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10 hours ago, Buorhann said:

We didn’t “participate” in planning AC.  We made it very clear we were hitting Vanguard whether they hit IQ or not.  Had we actually “participated” in planning AC as a whole, it would’ve gone much more different. (For example, none of that 6mo NAP bullshit)

That wasn’t our war to plan.

As for your reply, so what if they hit us first in 69 Day war.  Doesn’t take away the fact that we still fought against them.  Then we also had Oblivion, Empyrea, and individuals hired by you to help initiate against them in Knightfall and we initiated on them in Surf’s Up.

Thats 3 conflicts before you or anyone else in IQ was touched.

You had multiple opportunities.

Sketchy has claimed involvement in the planning multiple times. Basically the only thing that TGH might have done that wasn't hitting IQ was probably the hype about NB.

6 hours ago, Mitsuru said:

Are you trying to though? Because it has been pointed out to you numerous times by now but it can be repeated again: NPO has presetend a CB (basically two CBs) that are lacking a lot. One based on people apparently not hitting the right tone for you to not be freaked out based on what I read on the past three pages. Which is a worse CB than anything else I've ever seen here

How exactly is it based on a bad tone? On a particular night, Adrienne spoke to multiple people. First one was someone in NPO and they derived the impression she was upset. Then the second one was someone not in NPO where the whole plan was more or less planned or hinted at. I'm sure at this point she knows which convo it refers to and we know you deleted convos.

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The other one being logs about people making theoretical assumptions about what might possibly could happen in the future if IQ were not to disband. IQ is supposed to have disbanded though so these logs shouldn't even bother you anymore because they're not related to you anymore. People believed BK and NPO had split after all.

The point of those logs is to show you guys aren't always being straight. When TKR split, there was consternation about the assurances given to TCW. So when Sphinx is being charged with making an independent sphere to help you take down people by your new ally, it throws a lot of this out the window. It only went down the drain when he felt spurned by TKR and went to BK.

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Furthermore, a lot of your government members continously speak about further logs that they are not willing to present though from a source that is "100% legit" because it's not somebody who'd try to make something up about TKR. And on TOP of that we also constantly get people like Keshav who claim there have been private messages that have been deleted now that totally showed that people wanted to hit NPO. And then we don't want to forget the ridiculous conspiracy theory pushed by people like Auctor that our war against KETOG was a fake one. If Adrienne had faked a war with an opponent a lot of people from us have rather negative feelings towards to (for the reasons we all already know) and in which we got such a beating, then I guarantee you that I'd be gone from TKR's government and TKR very soon and so would be probably a decent number of other people. And then when people don't want to engage in all of this anymore, because it all sounds made up and is made up, then they argue "Oh, alliance XYZ has gone suspiciously silent. Why won't they argue with my lies and conspiracies anymore?"

So that's not an engagement in good faith. It's intervening into an existing conflict on a side of an alliance you said you had split from. Based on a CB that everyone who gives it a second or two of thought would recognize as lacking an actual CB. Then supported by continous claims by members about logs that they can't actually present or don't want to present. So your intervention is based on what people rightfully perceive to be a pretty lousy pretext and NPO's response can hardly be considered an engagement in good faith.

I've given enough hints where Adrienne would figure out who it was and why she deleted stuff.  It's not made up. Like I said, I've taken plenty of flak for similar things in the past and they were never made up. There was always something to them. I'm willing to stand by it. There's no reason for me to make up a conspiracy to enter on a less pragmatic front. I could have just gone full troll and said deal with it.  The entire point isn't to win anyone over but rather give our side of the story. The forum's audience isn't one I can appeal to no matter what in this situation. That's why the PR aspect didn't bother me that much. These were the same people arguing hegemony and chokehold and disbandment and endgame before we went in. Pretty much all this move did was take the heat off tS and move it solely to us, which is what we're used to, so it's nothing new.

Going back to KETOG-Chaos, people were suspicious because it went against the stated intentions of the parties involved. Simple as that. Auctor might still be trolling since he knows typing "fake war" annoys people disproportionately. If it's in lower case, it's not serious.

 

 

7 hours ago, Sketchy said:

Funny because I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you had actually broken up IQ and wanted to do something different and you repaid that by hitting the same old people pushing the same old excuses with the same old grudges with the same old allies.

Every single time the focus is away from you, you stick people in the ribs and wonder why they don't trust you?

You consistently misrepresent facts in the pursuit of your victim narrative at such an obvious scale that its difficult not to see it as anything other than a cynical ploy to garner sympathy from the unwitting and justify your own actions.

Maybe you were but I stated my security concerns with this war.  To be perfectly clear, TKR is not the main concern with the Chaos bloc. It's just what we know. With Chaos bloc, we've always been open about our issues with SK and CoS within our sphere.

 I'll start with SK. SK was initially enthusiatic about hitting Mensa. TKR hit them and we couldn't beat TKR right away. We started pushing up and it just wasn't good enough and they refused to play ball with the strategy we had going. They undermined coalition morale especially Mikey, barely fought,  and then pulled out. Squeegee then went on Thalmor's radio show to shittalk me and IQ.  Seeker and I went on later on to fire back at SK's lack of willingness to fully participate past round one.  SK canceled Zodiac and then plots against us because Seeker and I criticized them and uses this as their rationale to lie to their MD level ally Polar about their intentions.  That's not going away.                               

Let's move on to CoS, so there's Manthrax, you know how he's always felt, yes?  So then we have Ripper, Ripper has always been semi-hostile and would troll us consistently and without prompting. "Let's see how you do if we get people to mass blockade"  was one of his previous lines. Ripper during the war revealed he never had  fighting upper tier consolidation  as his goal so I'm left wondering what his goals were, and earlier tried to argue TKR would never give into anything,  then immediately after the war , he tried to make me to do something FA-wise in which he was not a principal party. Of course, anyone would stall at such a scenario especially when he declined participation. As i did not do what CoS wanted,they went to allying our enemy when allying us was off the table.  Keep in mind before the war we had several overtures from TCW and we chose to go forward with the Knightfall plan anyway, so it was clear we were being left on the hook for it all with Partisan's disappearances and Prefontaine's departure. This is coupled with the distribution of the 7.5 year old recording around CoS. 

Why would I not dislike them?

TKR isn't really the whole thing besides speculation of them wanting pay back and the conversations being between them and someone else.

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1 hour ago, Roquentin said:

-snip-

Nothing in this post addresses my point. I don't care if you have a grudge against SK/CoS, unless you are claiming that is the CB now which I don't think you are.

You entered this war on the pretence that Guardian/GOB were a threat to you based purely on their tiering rather than any tangible basis. If tiering is considering a basis for war now, then I guess we have a permanent CB against NPO for being tiered all on 20 cities like a large chunk of our guys are. Nevermind the fact that the "upper tier" is spread amongst multiple spheres and multiple alliances.

"Upper tier consolidation" seems like a weak excuse when you literally just fought them and won in a war previously in Knightfall. You then bring out an incredibly weak set of logs that don't even prove a plan exists to hit you, that also predate your supposed shift in political orientation, and are therefore irrelevant. And you chose to press this claim mid war in a convenient defence of your old ally, despite your current allies now obvious concerns.

And somehow through all this, you have the nerve to claim that you are somehow the wronged party in this entire affair and that we are out to get you. You were not attacked. None of your allies were attacked. In spite of the fact you were listed in the log. You entered the war of your own volition, in a limited capacity with an incredibly ridiculous CB, "tacitly" agreed to not expand, then expanded the war anyway. Every single piece of criticism you are receiving right now is of your own making.

The simpler take on this that is much easier to get to based on the evidence we have to look at, is that you entered the war to defend BK. You implied this before when you said you had an agreement that you'd defend should any spheres join together to fight another, despite the fact our spheres combined were smaller than BK's. But that seems more a retroactive excuse than an actual policy.

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
1 hour ago, Tankobite said:

Right, because after getting our air forces and spies decimated in a blitz and a month of fighting, we were looking for an excuse to hit one of the largest alliance blocks back to back. Quit twisting the facts. You aren't the victims here. You got caught planning an attack on smaller spheres who were already fighting tooth and nail and are paying the price.

You are smart than this, the facts are there for all to see. No one got caught planning an attack on two spheres fighting, more like an old plan was leaked to hit two spheres who at the time was not at war, you really should stick to the facts if that's what you are going to hide behind. IT is also a fact that KETOG was planning to hit BK sphere but instead hit Chaos, it is also the fact that Chaos planned on hitting tC until KETOG hit Chaos, (this information is from friends who hold government ranks within alliances within those spheres, well above your pay grade.) Now you can claim things are twisted and what not and act dumb that's cool, but anyone with half a brain knows KETOG, Chaos, BK, NPO all have plans on what to do if another sphere hits them or they plan to hit, would be pretty piss poor planning if they didn't.

As for your spies and being blitz with a month of fighting, Well you have no one to blame but your leaders, KETOG built up to hit someone and if you did nothing about that then look to your leaders why you got spanked, I do not think anyone here are victims of this, pretty sure I said a few times this is the war everyone wanted, the only ones I see playing the victim card is your side when NPO entered, first you claim IQ is still active then cry when NPO entered. IT does not matter what people tell you if I recall you were in BC along with a few others from soup, people have screenshots of Soup poaching from FR, could it be this plan to hit Chaos from tC and BK was down to the fact they had a valid CB vs Soup?, I can also understand why they would want NPO and allies to hit KETOG as we all know that if tC and BK hit Chaos then KETOG would be crazy to sit by and act as nothing was happening.

So if you are going to claim others are acting the victim lets face facts,
1) Soup poached from FR,
2) War plans were drawn up,
3) KETOG hit Chaos
4) War plans were then scrapped,
5) a month later those plans were leaked,
6) Chaos and KETOG along with Rose hit BK sphere

Tell me who are the victims here, the timeline shows all BK sphere did was draw up plans for a valid CB vs Soup.

 

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1 minute ago, Sketchy said:

Nothing in this post addresses my point. I don't care if you have a grudge against SK/CoS, unless you are claiming that is the CB now which I don't think you are.

You entered this was on the pretence that Guardian/GOB were a threat to you based purely on their tiering rather than any tangible basis. If tiering is considering a basis for war now, then I guess we have a permanent CB against NPO for being tiered all on 20 cities like a large chunk of our guys are. Nevermind the fact that the "upper tier" is spread amongst multiple spheres and multiple alliances.

"Upper tier consolidation" seems like a weak excuse when you literally just fought them and won in a war previously in Knightfall. You then bring out an incredibly weak set of logs that don't even prove a plan exists to hit you, that also predate your supposed shift in political orientation, and are therefore irrelevant. And you chose to press this claim mid war in a convenient defence of your old ally, despite your current allies now obvious concerns.

And somehow through all this, you have the nerve to claim that you are somehow the wronged party in this entire affair and that we are out to get you. You were not attacked. None of your allies were attacked. In spite of the fact you were listed in the log. You entered the war of your own volition, in a limited capacity with an incredibly ridiculous CB, "tacitly" agreed to not expand, then expanded the war anyway. Every single piece of criticism you are receiving right now is of your own making.

The simpler take on this that is much easier to get to based on the evidence we have to look at, is that you entered the war to defend BK. You implied this before when you said you had an agreement that you'd defend should any spheres join together to fight another, despite the fact our spheres combined were smaller than BK's. But that seems more a retroactive excuse than an actual policy.

It means i have plenty of reason not to want them to win outright here as they're not friendly.

I can have multiple reasons for wanting to make a stand. Yes, I didn't want it go back to being Guardian/GOB(moreso the latter) only fight sparingly and then get to farm for the rest of the war, which was what them joining your bloc gave them the security to do. This was brought up ahead of time. It was that the biggest nations were in the same sphere and that everyone who helped with the takedowns in Knightfall was now allied to them. It wasn't the sole basis. So yeah, I mean we had Boyce, Bluebear, Ockey, DtC, Rose whales, who are now friendly or involved with KETOG in some way. This was entirely dismissed by you as irrelevant and you didn't give me the time of day on it. Everyone else has basically hand-waved it away. I just want you to see t this since it's well known who was doing most of the whale take downs in the last war. There was no assurance we could have them repeat at a later date nor any interest.

It's not about being the wronged party. It's logical to divide and conquer. It's a major security risk when I have shaky relationships that change based on who happens to be running FA for one alliance for the only buffer zone to be completely wiped out. There was literally nothing in your way of hitting us after.

There was no agreement to provide any level of defense to BK made to BK.  We would not have expected them to defend tS or us if we had been hit.  The agreement was between us and Kayser if enough people teamed up and they were overwhelmed, we'd have the autonomy to prevent it from becoming a wider issue.

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Yeah that's a lie because we know for a fact Sphinx specifically signed with BK and into TC with the express intent of hitting Chaos, specifically TKR due to a grudge he had from how that relationship ended. 

Nice try though.

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1 minute ago, Roquentin said:

It's a major security risk when I have shaky relationships that change based on who happens to be running FA for one alliance for the only buffer zone to be completely wiped out. There was literally nothing in your way of hitting us after.

And this is exactly the point everyone is making. You see BK a buffer zone and everyone else as your enemy. But we didn't hit you, you hit us. By this logic, we can't ever trust you not to just hit anyone who isn't BK because they might hit you next, since you view everyone as your enemy and seem to have no interest in changing the perspective of you, that you think people have.

Hence why I'm skeptical this is even true,. If your goal was to solidify shaky relationships, you wouldn't have lied and screwed over everyone else in the game not tied directly to BK, including your own ally. Its not a coincidence the rest of us don't seem to have this problem.

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1 hour ago, Sketchy said:

And this is exactly the point everyone is making. You see BK a buffer zone and everyone else as your enemy. But we didn't hit you, you hit us. By this logic, we can't ever trust you not to just hit anyone who isn't BK because they might hit you next, since you view everyone as your enemy and seem to have no interest in changing the perspective of you, that you think people have.

Hence why I'm skeptical this is even true,. If your goal was to solidify shaky relationships, you wouldn't have lied and screwed over everyone else in the game not tied directly to BK, including your own ally. Its not a coincidence the rest of us don't seem to have this problem.

I wouldn't waste time explaining it if I was trying to make this a permanent stance. It's a buffer zone specifically because of the fact that people were saying we're the real bad guys and so on. It's an easy target to paint. You didn't hit us in part because you lacked the numbers to do so. There weren't even assurances no retaliation like with Pantheon. One person from your side reached out and we had a fairly decent convo, so there is definitely room for dialogue and changing things.

You can't solidify anything if people don't have a vested interest in the partnership and have their own objectives/goals and relationships they want to pursue when the FA head changes 3 times in less than a year and everything constantly shifts under us. Things we were in agreement on with Kayser no longer were the case. Stances changed constantly. Our archimedean points were all gone and I think Auctor had it right when he said it was becoming about nothing. I would have preferred to be able to develop long-term into a sphere that could stand on its own.  We can't be treated as a junior partner, which was happening.

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3 hours ago, Roquentin said:

How exactly is it based on a bad tone? On a particular night, Adrienne spoke to multiple people. First one was someone in NPO and they derived the impression she was upset. Then the second one was someone not in NPO where the whole plan was more or less planned or hinted at. I'm sure at this point she knows which convo it refers to and we know you deleted convos.

"they derived the impression she was upset" sounds like exactly what I talked about. You didn't like her tone. And you pointed at her tone in this thread before as well. You can now argue that you didn't argue this before but you did. You said quite literally "Well maybe your tone in that conversation conveyed something else since it was a similar impression that was corraborated by someone else who talked with you and it's very different from what you're saying." in reply to Adrienne telling you that she had told Marina that she believed the split to be real (see below). And it has been repeatedly pointed out that nobody in Chaos actually wanted to hit you. But now you suddenly have a second conversation "where the whole plan was more or less planned" (??? The plan was more or less planned ???). Something you don't want to actually back up by showing logs.

 

3 hours ago, Roquentin said:

The point of those logs is to show you guys aren't always being straight. When TKR split, there was consternation about the assurances given to TCW. So when Sphinx is being charged with making an independent sphere to help you take down people by your new ally, it throws a lot of this out the window. It only went down the drain when he felt spurned by TKR and went to BK.

What you're trying to interpret into the logs between Sphinx and Adrienne is quite ridiculous to be honest. Again: It's about IQ and people had believed that IQ had broken up. I know you all like to act like Adrienne actually had such awful intentions but when we dropped TCW, we said we'd protect them one month and OBVIOUSLY she would then ask him how things are and what he's persuing (including when she talked with him about Rose). And obviously they would continue to be in talks about how - despite wanting to split - one might have to cooperate in the future because of IQ. Things she would not have said if IQ had already split at that point. And things she wouldn't have repeated after IQ had split. I fail to see how that was "not straight".

Also I know that Sphinx holds a grudge about us dropping them. He's told me often enough how he thought that was a mistake. It's TCW's own fault though that our government was able to get the Chaos bloc and therefore the dropping of TCW through so easily through with our membership because of how awful TCW did during Knightfall. I mean they literally decided not to do anything in their alliance to not waste their resources. I wasn't even back in gov when the bloc was announced and I remember how people were sad about dropping TCW but ultimately everyone was like "Yeah but seriously. With what they did in Knightfall, might not be for the worst". Unfortunately though, Sphinx is just as dishonest as some of your folk are because while he was constantly talking to people like me about how he still defends TKR in front of his allies, he planned a complete dogpile against our bloc. And then he had nothing better to do than to abuse our trust and leak stuff unrelated to you (because AGAIN: IQ wasn't supposed to exist anymore) in order to get you to bail them out in this war. So yeah.. he's the one who got spurned. ;D

 

3 hours ago, Roquentin said:

I've given enough hints where Adrienne would figure out who it was and why she deleted stuff.  It's not made up. Like I said, I've taken plenty of flak for similar things in the past and they were never made up. There was always something to them. I'm willing to stand by it. There's no reason for me to make up a conspiracy to enter on a less pragmatic front. I could have just gone full troll and said deal with it.  The entire point isn't to win anyone over but rather give our side of the story. The forum's audience isn't one I can appeal to no matter what in this situation. That's why the PR aspect didn't bother me that much. These were the same people arguing hegemony and chokehold and disbandment and endgame before we went in. Pretty much all this move did was take the heat off tS and move it solely to us, which is what we're used to, so it's nothing new.

Going back to KETOG-Chaos, people were suspicious because it went against the stated intentions of the parties involved. Simple as that. Auctor might still be trolling since he knows typing "fake war" annoys people disproportionately. If it's in lower case, it's not serious.

Okay I just want to emphasize this point so that you FINALLY understand this: If you want to keep insisting how you allegedly have logs and people saying things without providing them, then you don't get to complain about being called out as a liar. And you also don't get to say that you "engaged in good faith". Because that is clearly not true by all means. Surely you will understand this yourself.

And don't tell me anything about "suspicious". Your government was here out and loud claiming that we were making it all up. Your government is your government and people will treat things they say - here or discord or elsewhere - differently than what your regular members might say. You also don't get to say it's just trolling or whatever. Auctor, Keshav (your 2IC according to your page) have been beating this dead horse of a conspiracy long enough. You might not have said it yourself (Idk tbh. Maybe you did. Maybe you didn't. I actually don't read everything on the OWF in every thread) but you also don't get to act like your government's words on here have no weight.

Not to mention that IQ was plenty busy with arguing hegemony and chokehold for years against us before you decided to do this move. The reaction of your partner from The Syndicate (https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/topic/25718-we-are-here-for-the-whales/&page=37&tab=comments#comment-410226) or the screenshot ghosting around of Frawley basically saying "Meh, you hate us all anyway so might as well revive IQ" further illustrates the NPO dishonesty. I'm not going to attribute Leo's paranoid "Chaos bloc is just TKR + TCW in secret treaties + new allies" before he then went on to sign TCW himself to you or NPO but the paranoia is really deeply rooted in both of your alliances.

 

Edited by Mitsuru
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You know, the funny thing is, after Alex's credit changes, I'm no longer so opposed to Chaos-KETOG's effort to control and ruin the game. The guy literally puts out stuff like this:

 

9b0e24051cafb2d5c24c06636aa780924cbb0cc4

 

when we all know which tax bracket he's in.

.

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5 minutes ago, Mitsuru said:

"they derived the impression she was upset" sounds like exactly what I talked about. You didn't like her tone. And you pointed at her tone in this thread before as well. You can now argue that you didn't argue this before but you did. You said quite literally "Well maybe your tone in that conversation conveyed something else since it was a similar impression that was corraborated by someone else who talked with you and it's very different from what you're saying." in reply to Adrienne telling you that she had told Marina that she believed the split to be real (see below). And it has been repeatedly pointed out that nobody in Chaos actually wanted to hit you. But now you suddenly have a second conversation "where the whole plan was more or less planned" (??? The plan was more or less planned ???). Something you don't want to actually back up by showing logs.

In one case, it was her tone and in the other it was a plan that was stated to the third party. I don't have to disclose it unless they're ready to be disclosed. Adrienne is likely more than aware or else she wouldn't have deleted it and you wouldn't have been deleting your lines in other dms either. It's really funny for you to post and shows you have no interest in good faith.

5 minutes ago, Mitsuru said:

 

What you're trying to interpret into the logs between Sphinx and Adrienne is quite ridiculous to be honest. Again: It's about IQ and people had believed that IQ had broken up. I know you all like to act like Adrienne actually had such awful intentions but when we dropped TCW, we said we'd protect them one month and OBVIOUSLY she would then ask him how things are and what he's persuing (including when she talked with him about Rose). And obviously they would continue to be in talks about how - despite wanting to split - one might have to cooperate in the future because of IQ. Things she would not have said if IQ had already split at that point. And things she wouldn't have repeated after IQ had split. I fail to see how that was "not straight".

Um, there were also logs of Manthrax advising sphinx on which alliances for his new sphere to pick up. They should be somewhere in Dio's. It fits collusion like everyone has been saying.

5 minutes ago, Mitsuru said:

Also I know that Sphinx holds a grudge about us dropping them. He's told me often enough how he thought that was a mistake. It's TCW's own fault though that our government was able to get the Chaos bloc and therefore the dropping of TCW through so easily through with our membership because of how awful TCW did during Knightfall. I mean they literally decided not to do anything in their alliance to not waste their resources. I wasn't even back in gov when the bloc was announced and I remember how people were sad about dropping TCW but ultimately everyone was like "Yeah but seriously. With what they did in Knightfall, might not be for the worst". Unfortunately though, Sphinx is just as dishonest as some of your folk are because while he was constantly talking to people like me about how he still defends TKR in front of his allies, he planned a complete dogpile against our bloc. And then he had nothing better to do than to abuse our trust and leak stuff unrelated to you (because AGAIN: IQ wasn't supposed to exist anymore) in order to get you to bail them out in this war. So yeah.. he's the one who got spurned. ;D

 

Okay I just want to emphasize this point so that you FINALLY understand this: If you want to keep insisting how you allegedly have logs and people saying things without providing them, then you don't get to complain about being called out as a liar. And you also don't get to say that you "engaged in good faith". Because that is clearly not true by all means. Surely you will understand this yourself.

Really ironic from the guy who's deleted his own convos.

5 minutes ago, Mitsuru said:

And don't tell me anything about "suspicious". Your government was here out and loud claiming that we were making it all up. Your government is your government and people will treat things they say - here or discord or elsewhere - differently than what your regular members might say. You also don't get to say it's just trolling or whatever. Auctor, Keshav (your 2IC according to your page) have been beating this dead horse of a conspiracy long enough. You might not have said it yourself (Idk tbh. Maybe you did. Maybe you didn't. I actually don't read everything on the OWF in every thread) but you also don't get to act like your government's words on here have no weight.

Not to mention that IQ was plenty busy with arguing hegemony and chokehold for years against us before you decided to do this move. The reaction of your partner from The Syndicate (https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/topic/25718-we-are-here-for-the-whales/&page=37&tab=comments#comment-410226) or the screenshot ghosting around of Frawley basically saying "Meh, you hate us all anyway so might as well revive IQ" further illustrates the NPO dishonesty. I'm not going to attribute Leo's paranoid "Chaos bloc is just TKR + TCW in secret treaties + new allies" before he then went on to sign TCW himself to you or NPO but the paranoia is really deeply rooted in both of your alliances.

 

Making what up? People thought it was a planned war because it went against the stated intentions of the parties beforehand. Auctor has posted recently in lower case to say fake war to troll and he doesn't hold an official position at the moment. We haven't been pushing fake war and I was given the actual rationale(boredom).

The Syndicate did what it wanted to do and their interests didn't coincide with NPO's. That's it. I wasn't going to give up control over our actions unconditionally to a foreign entity. I wouldn't expect them to do everything we want either.

At this point it's pointless to continue this overall forum discussion. You guys as a whole have made it clear where you stand and we are beyond words at this point. It's just going back and forth on the same things. I've clarified my stances.

Best of luck and when anyone on your side feels like engaging in productive discussion, you know where to find me. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Adrienne is likely more than aware or else she wouldn't have deleted it and you wouldn't have been deleting your lines in other dms either.

Really ironic from the guy who's deleted his own convos.

Oh you're talking about me deleting my DM history with Dio - with whom I've never even talked one word about NPO or attacks on NPO or anything of that sort - after I told him to frick off for trying to get Blink banned? Yeah it adds to the layer of dishonesty for you to try to imply that there was anything of relevance to you or your alliance in there. Especially because Dio is quite aware how secretive TKR's high gov is towards their low gov to prevent leaks. I deleted my DMs with Dio because I have told Dio a lot of very private stuff over the last year or so and I felt uncomfortable him still having access to that. I am sure you will understand how uncomfortable it would be to have old stuff being dug up.

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4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Adrienne is likely more than aware or else she wouldn't have deleted it

I'm completely at a loss to understand what you're talking about actually. So, feel free to enlighten me.

BrOQBND.jpg

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@Roquentin - Should I create a list of people who approached you in trying to make something new or amicable with NPO?  Pretty weird if NPO was viewed as a bad guy.

4 hours ago, Inst said:

You know, the funny thing is, after Alex's credit changes, I'm no longer so opposed to Chaos-KETOG's effort to control and ruin the game. The guy literally puts out stuff like this:

 

9b0e24051cafb2d5c24c06636aa780924cbb0cc4

 

when we all know which tax bracket he's in.

You mean the two spheres who were warring each other before this war occurred is ruining the game?

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I think it's funny they are complaining about how many alliances they are at war with while threatening alliances that are neutral that they will roll them or sending their dog too.

Edit: that kind of proves roquetin's point now that I think about it. ? 

 

Edit edit: kind of nullifies the complaint about how many people you're at war with too. Even though when you consider the tiering the argument is complete BS.

Edited by James II
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"Most successful new AA" - Samuel Bates

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8 hours ago, Roquentin said:

It only went down the drain when he felt spurned by TKR and went to BK.

Also, this is not true lol. As we've stated a few times already, any ideas we had went out the window when IQ split since the whole point of the idea was that IQ had too power much consolidated within a single sphere and we were committed to the minispheres idea (which prominent figures in IQ were loudly proclaiming to be a stupid idea at the time, by the way). After you unexpectedly split, I was interested to see where both sides took things, not plotting against you.

Edited by Nizam Adrienne

BrOQBND.jpg

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