Popular Post Dio Brando Posted May 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, Prefontaine said: snip 19 hours ago, Dio Brando said: Will be posting a thread on this topic in Orbis Central soon. As promised… In another time, in another realm, the ideas I am going to present were not alien. The following concept was understood at-least implicitly by many, and practiced regularly. Most were unsuccessful in wielding the information given to them in any meaningful manner, yet those who did shined in that realm and beyond. Often, we have seen people who either attempt to take upon the role of the villain, or at the very least promote and support those who do. In the classical sense, the villain is to be abhorred, to be reviled, to be denied and rejected. As children, we saw, in fairy-tales and in other assorted stories, that the villain almost always lost. Why then, would one wish to adopt the role of a villain? It seems counter intuitive, but there is legitimate reasoning behind why one may wish to engage in such an activity. Let me first state that it is important we always maintain the realistic view that this is a game. While our actions within the confines of the game may be indicative of our personality outside the realm, believing that a player's adopted persona is the representation of their out-of-game self is the height of folly. Let us speak of Orbis first. Politics & War at its most fundamental level is divided into two major areas: mechanics backed actions, and user generated content. The two are not entities wholly independent of each other that operate in entirely different areas. Much to the contrary, there is great overlap between the two; anyone who has paid any amount of attention to P&W will note that there is a clear relation between a political entity's dominance in the sociopolitical arena and in-game competence. One could say that this game is 2/5th a nation sim, and 3/5th a socialization game. Having observed this, we understand quickly that for our actions in-game to hold any meaning, it is necessary that the story of the game - the In-Character dynamics - be perpetuated. What does it mean to extend the story of the game? It means that with our actions in game, in our conversations on Discord, to our posts on these very forums, we must be contributing in some way to the overarching narratives within the game. To build a hundred-member strong alliance, all securely within the middle tier, and do nothing with it is stupid, worthless, and should not be done. It means you are building just for the sake of building. To build the same alliance and craft a period of time within Orbis' history that provides engagement outside the immediately present mechanics is what makes this game fun, its what makes people say: "I had a lot of fun in 20<xx>". Eventually, if you keep fighting wars and a narrative does not accompany them, you will grow bored. There are very few players who are able to manage not burning out while doing so, and almost all of them, at one point or the other, have turned to politics. Let us move on. We know that P&W is more than just what we build in game, but a collection of tales and stories criss-crossing with each other to form the fabric of this game: the timeline of this realm. Knowing this, let us ask: does a story with no foil for its 'heroes', no villain, ever be as entertaining as it would be if it did have one? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding no. The nature of these games is that a sphere, an alliance, even individuals and ideals to rally against always makes the game more interesting. One need not always play the bad-guy, but in the end, a game's story is only as interesting and engaging as whatever villain exists. We have seen time and time again, the times where the most political turmoil and intrigue have existed have been when the multitude of alliances in Orbis have attempted to overthrow whatever power they believe exists. Conflict drives the game, without it you may as well play Farmville. Meaningless conflicts - in that they are not adding to an overarching narrative or goal that sees political maneuvering and positioning accompany it - can be fun, and indeed have been fun, but after the nth time, they too turn stale. A villain is one who knows how to antagonize others with purpose. Being an !@#$ for no reason is not playing the villain, it is not antagonism in politics, it is just that: being an !@#$. Being a villain requires the understanding of one basic fact and the willingness to use that information: genuine gameplay antagonism begins with the realization that every player you come into contact with are of some use or the other, be it as friends, informants, allies, or even enemies. You may wonder how enemies are 'useful'; history tells us that threats to one's way of life and the status quo allow an otherwise weaker side to galvanize it's troops in order to oppose 'the enemy'. More than this, however, it requires the willingness to, for a lack of a better word, use people to further your goals, which feed into an overarching narrative. It demands that you understand the motivating stimuli behind individual and alliance scale actions so as to leverage the players. You may think of it as writing a play, where your in-game competence is your budget, equipment and so on. Your actors, the way you use them, the script… that’s all your interactions and behavior towards them. In the end, perhaps the most significant part of what makes you capable of pulling off the role of a villain is the way people perceive you and your actions. The golden rule is that what you actually did isn’t relevant, what matters is how people perceive it and how well you are able to influence that perception. In that sense, your reputation is of the utmost importance. What is also important to note is that you need not play the villain for eternity. Unless you commit to actions that go far beyond the norms of the game, there is always a chance for you to come back and adopt a different persona, though it is only natural that the community takes time to accept that. That said, however, I think special mention needs to be made of what doesn’t constitutes as playing a persona, and what is not conducive whatsoever to one’s ability to play the villain. It is not conducive to your long term persona keeping or your reputation to do what many a player is wont to engage in: fruitless and frivolous bashing of other players for no gain over an extended period of time. A good way to think of it is like this: You can rip on some people all of the time, you can rip on all people some of the time, but if you start ripping on everyone all the time, your words ring hollow and people stop listening to what you’re saying. Once people stop listening to what you’re saying and disregard it as “just another post by that crazy guy”, your ability to influence actions immediately drops almost to 0. Similarly, it is important to know who you’re targeting, what you’re targeting them on, and when you’re doing so. If the person is of greater value as an ally and a friend, then don’t attack them or what they say, but try to reach a more personable compromise in case it is really necessary. If what you’re attacking them on is a position held by your allies and friends, that too will come back to bite you in the ass. Finally, if you’re attacking them before you need their help (even if temporarily so), you’re screwing your own plans over. This much is common sense, but apparently still needs to be told. Playing a villain doesn’t mean you can’t have friendships, it means you’re capable of compartmentalizing in-game/politics with RL and outside-of-character bonds. I’ve personally found that the most fun is to be had when I’m airstriking my friends tanks and talking with them in Voice Chat while doing so. This provides a good segue to my next point, the crafting of meaningful bonds and the power of listening. Whenever you are talked to/with, you are supposed to listen: Receive. You might skim something and miss a part of what they're saying that changes the meaning totally. Subtle changes are important, so read messages fully, twice. Understand. Try understanding the purpose behind their message, what they're attempting to tell you, and what kind of response they expect. Consider: Now consider the message's importance, and what your potential response will tell them. Does it benefit you in terms of going ahead with your plans, or does it pose a hindrance? Before replying, always do the three things above. It will help greatly in formulating a response. Plus, this skill (the ability to comprehend the situation) isn't only helpful in politics but in everyday conversation too. You are expected to understand civility and tact, and how to use them to further your goals. Do not dictate terms to others, do not issue ultimatums. Entering rooms like a petulant child throwing a tantrum is not you conduct negotiations, even if you have overwhelming power at your hand. Do not flame or bait unnecessarily, unless it achieves an IC goal. If addressed aggressively, you must remember that you have to show you are better than them, either by wit or restraint. Having said that, it is equally true that at times you must be firm with your point. As someone playing a role, particularly that of the villain, you are not a timid, subservient follower. Do not compromise for the sake of civility, do not be non-confrontational when it helps with your goals, but be smart about your opposition, picking unnecessary fights does not do anyone good but those who wish to make you look bad. In this sense, listening and responding on its own are some of the most powerful tools you have in crafting meaningful relationships and bonds, both for the game and outside the game. If you (can): Compartmentalize and separate IC motivations with OOC emotions, Understand who fights for what, why they do so, and are willing to use said information Listen and help people grow into a position where they can and are willing to help you, Understand that power can only be hung to for so long before changes need to be made, You can fairly easily adopt the role of a villain. This isn't a "guide" so to speak, nor would I claim it is. Its a loose collection of thoughts that turned rambly half way in because my dumbass hasn't slept for more than a total of 5 hours in the past two days. Edited May 8, 2019 by Dio Brando 6 25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Illenium Posted May 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dio Brando said: This isn't a "guide" so to speak, nor would I claim it is. Its a loose collection of thoughts that turned rambly half way in because my dumbass hasn't slept for more than a total of 5 hours in the past two days. Dio please sleep more ;-; 2 3 8 Quote Kitsune magics are fun~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dio Brando Posted May 8, 2019 Author Share Posted May 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Illenium said: Dio please sleep more ;-; No promises. I have been trying ;___; 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerfed_Bred Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Huh I just read through all of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Prefontaine Posted May 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) Like I told you privately, I will echo publicly. It's a good read. Too often people forget that we're not required to be the people we are in real life here. You can be a bad guy here, but a nice guy in real life. There are different aspects of RP, some RP in the RP forum, some embody a character. There is also a side note I'd like to make, echoing a conversation I had with Lordship some time ago. As a leader, you can feel boxed in from time to time. You don't want to make moves that risk the enjoyment and prosperity of the dozens, if not hundreds of people you lead by taking them down a risky, or ultimately losing path. I get that, it's why I left Guardian in this game. I felt the members wanted to play the more safe route politically and that prospect bored me. Sometimes though you just have to do it, and it's not an easy thing. While winning war after war is more fun than losing war after war, especially with the boring war mechanics we do have, winning all the time isn't fun either. Don't be afraid to take risks. But if you're going to be a villain, you have to take more care, and put more effort in than the good guys do. It's harder to be a great villain than it is to be the good guy. Edited May 8, 2019 by Prefontaine 2 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
丂ħ̧i̧₣ɫ̵γ͘ ̶™ Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Too long, skimmed it, was also very preachy. Are we grilling Pre here? Did Pre say something that needed to be flesh out as a post? we need a tl:dr 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Good read. To add my two cents, even being the good guy is more fun when you're willing to take a risk or two and doesn't explicitly rule out the role antagonizing another player or sphere. Sometimes the good thing to do is push back when conventional wisdom says that's a fine way to get your teeth punched in. In fact some of the most compelling villains in fiction are those who have absolutely no doubt that they are doing the "right" thing. So the line between good and evil can be pretty damn hard to parse out - but on either side you shouldn't be afraid to test a boundary here or there if necessary. 3 Quote One must imagine Sisyphus happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biel Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 HEY! I play Farmville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illenium Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, Sisyphus said: In fact some of the most compelling villains in fiction are those who have absolutely no doubt that they are doing the "right" thing. So the line between good and evil can be pretty damn hard to parse out - but on either side you shouldn't be afraid to test a boundary here or there if necessary. The villain motive hierarchy meme actually kind of works here ? 1 1 Quote Kitsune magics are fun~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefontaine Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, Sisyphus said: but on either side you shouldn't be afraid to TEst a boundary here or there if necessary. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Prefontaine said: The perfect character to personify TEst in a lot of ways imo. Maybe a little too "goodie goodie" though. 9 minutes ago, Illenium said: The villain motive hierarchy meme actually kind of works here ? This game relies on role playing in a large part to be interesting - and role playing relies on compelling villains to be interesting so it seems natural to me that it would. ? Edited May 8, 2019 by Sisyphus 1 Quote One must imagine Sisyphus happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroshima Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) I don’t RP, I go hard and blow bags in real life too. Edited May 8, 2019 by 86’d Quote “I'm cheap and enjoy butchering” - Manthrax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elijah Mikaelson Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 A leader of an alliance generally is the good guy or the bad guy depending the outcome of the fight, If they win the big fight if you will then be the good guy to your own however a bad guy to those who lost, No one is simply a good guy or a bad guy with PnW, It just depends on what side of the Hail house bars you stand. I am pretty unknown by most, However a few hate me due to what they have been told or who they follow, those who have taken the time to get to know me will tell another story of how I am, As I said someone is not simply a Villian due to you only seeing one side of the picture. Many never take the time to see both sides, they are generally to blind to see both halves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 11 hours ago, Illenium said: The villain motive hierarchy meme actually kind of works here ? This is a conversation I have often with friends. In regards to written characters, not PnW personalities. The modern day idea that a villain needs a sympathetic motivation to be a well-written character is more of a meme than anything backed up by serious argument. I would contend than a truly evil character does not have understandable or sympathetic motivations. Tywin Lannister has nothing sympathetic about his motivations and is one of the best written and acted characters in recent memory. He would fall under the "shit tier" in this image, lusting for power. The Emperor from the original Star Wars trilogy is another example of a pure evil character with no motivations other than "shit tier" but is his effect not just as powerful? The Joker from the recent Batman movie? Ramsay Bolton? The Elder Gods from the Lovecraft universe? Thanos? Voldermort? Sauron? True evil, sadistic behavior, and a careless disregard for life are all things that resonate with people when they read/watch/encounter a true villain. Genuine good versus pure evil is a theme that dates back to time immemorial and there's a reason that's the case. Sympathetic villains are the exception, not the norm. To tie this into PnW - you don't need a mechanical reason from the game nor a grudge held from some slight to decide to "be the villain." If you can think of something interesting to do, then do it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinesomeMC Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 Guys I didnt read this, but it seemed very knowledgeable and important. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftbehind Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 13 hours ago, Elijah Mikaelson said: A leader of an alliance generally is the good guy or the bad guy depending the outcome of the fight, If they win the big fight if you will then be the good guy to your own however a bad guy to those who lost, No one is simply a good guy or a bad guy with PnW, It just depends on what side of the Hail house bars you stand. I am pretty unknown by most, However a few hate me due to what they have been told or who they follow, those who have taken the time to get to know me will tell another story of how I am, As I said someone is not simply a Villian due to you only seeing one side of the picture. Many never take the time to see both sides, they are generally to blind to see both halves. I feel like you are confusing rivalries and villains. Being someone's rival does not make the other a villain. 1 Quote FORMER LEADER OF COTL. PLEASE GROW INTERNALLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Micchan Posted May 9, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 9, 2019 23 hours ago, Illenium said: The villain motive hierarchy meme actually kind of works here ? 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Epi Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 75 Edited February 17, 2021 by Epi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 7 hours ago, Micchan said: You're absolutely right. I blame @Lucas, he's clearly a bad influence: 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayor Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 Villains are the worst. Why can't we all just get along for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 On 5/8/2019 at 11:27 AM, Bartholomew Roberts said: This is a conversation I have often with friends. In regards to written characters, not PnW personalities. The modern day idea that a villain needs a sympathetic motivation to be a well-written character is more of a meme than anything backed up by serious argument. I would contend than a truly evil character does not have understandable or sympathetic motivations. Tywin Lannister has nothing sympathetic about his motivations and is one of the best written and acted characters in recent memory. He would fall under the "shit tier" in this image, lusting for power. The Emperor from the original Star Wars trilogy is another example of a pure evil character with no motivations other than "shit tier" but is his effect not just as powerful? The Joker from the recent Batman movie? Ramsay Bolton? The Elder Gods from the Lovecraft universe? Thanos? Voldermort? Sauron? True evil, sadistic behavior, and a careless disregard for life are all things that resonate with people when they read/watch/encounter a true villain. Genuine good versus pure evil is a theme that dates back to time immemorial and there's a reason that's the case. Sympathetic villains are the exception, not the norm. To tie this into PnW - you don't need a mechanical reason from the game nor a grudge held from some slight to decide to "be the villain." If you can think of something interesting to do, then do it. Tywin had reasons, he was protecting his family. The Emperor is a bad guy we see in 1 movie, the real bad guy is Darth Vader who is corrupted and turns good at the end(spoiler alert). Thanos, Voldermort, and Sauron all had reasonings when you read the books. Very few characters in writing do things for no reason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 4 hours ago, Kastor said: Tywin had reasons, he was protecting his family. The Emperor is a bad guy we see in 1 movie, the real bad guy is Darth Vader who is corrupted and turns good at the end(spoiler alert). Thanos, Voldermort, and Sauron all had reasonings when you read the books. Very few characters in writing do things for no reason. You've used multiple different examples that each have their own explanation but ultimately when you analyze these arguably iconic villains you'll find their motivations fall under what a lot of critics would call "shit tier" motivation. I think if you look deeper into these you'll see that, despite any dialogue that the villain would use to justify themselves, each one of their motivations are all selfish/"shit tier" according to the chart. Also did you really just say Sauron had justified or empathetic motivations? The literal embodiment of evil in the Lord of the Rings has justified or empathetic motivations? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) When did this become a book club? The Emperor and Sauron aren't compelling because they are nuanced, you're right, but they aren't compelling because they aren't nuanced either. They're compelling because their ability to consolidate and generate power is almost insurmountable. They are more an environmental factor (a tough mountain for the hero to climb -literally- in LotR) than an actual character. But in this game "playing the villain" isn't as simple or easy as that, if that's what you're going for. Edit: The closest thing this game could probably get to Sauron is a non-player controlled mob-spawner. Edited May 10, 2019 by Sisyphus 3 Quote One must imagine Sisyphus happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 55 minutes ago, Sisyphus said: When did this become a book club? The Emperor and Sauron aren't compelling because they are nuanced, you're right, but they aren't compelling because they aren't nuanced either. They're compelling because their ability to consolidate and generate power is almost insurmountable. They are more an environmental factor (a tough mountain for the hero to climb -literally- in LotR) than an actual character. But in this game "playing the villain" isn't as simple or easy as that, if that's what you're going for. Edit: The closest thing this game could probably get to Sauron is a non-player controlled mob-spawner. The beauty of this game is that if you can convince fools to join you in a war, then you don't need to be powerful in your own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dio Brando Posted May 10, 2019 Author Share Posted May 10, 2019 God damn nerds. Yeah, yeah, I love every single franchise mentioned yet, but we're not gonna talk about that 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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