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Do Ayyliens and Whales mix?


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5 minutes ago, The Mad Titan said:

Lol. "We couldn't compete with organization so we had to consolidate in the uppers". What a meme. No one forced anyone to build it was just the easy path out then actually trying to compete, so makes sense why you chose it.

I listed you clear examples of relevant alliances today, you're trying to deflect this as an EMC thing. :P 

You're also admitting to having low tier consolidation and are saying that building out of it is the easy path out, when just a page ago you said that low tier nations are useless.

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10 minutes ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Uhhh. This should be amusing. Fire away.

Paging Dr. Yui though. Standby with warm milk.

You have contributed pretty much nothing overall to the changing FA of the game. You mention two years but what exactly did you do in two years? Nothing in T$, and nothing in CoS. It took Ripper joining as leader to actually make CoS relevant. And no, hitting a few pantheon members for half a round isn't being relevant. 

 

5 minutes ago, Radoje said:

I listed you clear examples of relevant alliances today, you're trying to deflect this as an EMC thing. :P 

You're also admitting to having low tier consolidation and are saying that building out of it is the easy path out, when just a page ago you said that low tier nations are useless.

It's not consolidated though? NPO and T$ have just as much in the range as we do?

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3 minutes ago, The Mad Titan said:

It's not consolidated though? NPO and T$ have just as much in the range as we do?

So again, you first said that low tier nations are useless in this meta, and now you're saying they're relevant.

So here, let's play again.

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"Guys, having 605 low tier nations isn't consolidation, just compete better, it's clearly BK's superior organization"

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2 minutes ago, The Mad Titan said:

You have contributed pretty much nothing overall to the changing FA of the game. You mention two years but what exactly did you do in two years? Nothing in T$, and nothing in CoS. It took Ripper joining as leader to actually make CoS relevant. And no, hitting a few pantheon members for half a round isn't being relevant.

Oh boo. This is a little by the numbers. I think you may have lifted this from Sketchy, ironically. :D

Being honest though, I seldom go out of the way to tell people what I do (sometimes I think it would be fun to retire and do a radio show detailing some of it, if anyone cared to listen, hahah), and I'm quite aware I could do more. But even without getting into the flaws in your characterization and detailing things that you, being so jacked into your own IQ echo chamber may not have been privy to, let me point something out:

Let's assume I did literally nothing. That's still better than actively holding a tier stagnant. It's like comparing zero to negative four.

 

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Slaughter the shits of the world. They poison the air you breathe.

 

~ William S. Burroughs

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1 hour ago, Radoje said:

That's why currently, most alliances are building out of your tiers because any nation under 20 cities basically has no hope of fighting you.

Hey now, I resent this remark.  I enjoyed my 16/17 city nation fighting the hordes.

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Guest Curufinwe
1 hour ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Speaking as someone who managed to read a solid 30% of what you two just wrote, I'd just like to point out that using historical comparisons to try and establish Sketchy as a hypocrite wouldn't retroactively make BK's FA moves less cowardly.

Edit: At first I was a little curious why BK went with TCW. But now I think I understand better. They're going to fill the void left by IQ and have Yui feed BK soothing narratives and applesauce. "It's okay. Everyone else is consolidating. It's okay. You're a strong alliance and I'm very proud of you. It's all okay."

In fairness, reading 30 percent of what Sketchy and I just wrote is about 25 percent more than a reasonable person has any right to expect, so that's actually pretty good.

That being said, having read 15 percent of the bottom 50 percent of your post, I can wholeheartedly agree that Yui does seem soothing and applesauce is tasty, which as far as I know is the only thing that was brought up in the text I just quoted.

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4 hours ago, Curufinwe said:

most of the things he said

Arguing that BK lacked a top tier and you needed one, as the other spheres HAVE a top tier, isn't really right. You have a huge amount of lower nations, which can sit planes only and avoid the top tier like you've always done, and inflict damage below. Just like the alliances with top tier would be too high to downdeclare on you. 

And, with the amount of low nations you have, you can updeclare and suicide your shit into them, cause 3 smaller nations v 1 bigger nations works, as you have previously stated; you've done this in knightfall  

aka Filip, The Royalist or Tremor

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Guest Curufinwe
59 minutes ago, The Royalist said:

 

Arguing that BK lacked a top tier and you needed one, as the other spheres HAVE a top tier, isn't really right. You have a huge amount of lower nations, which can sit planes only and avoid the top tier like you've always done, and inflict damage below. Just like the alliances with top tier would be too high to downdeclare on you. 

And, with the amount of low nations you have, you can updeclare and suicide your shit into them, cause 3 smaller nations v 1 bigger nations works, as you have previously stated; you've done this in knightfall  

Actually, BK is solidly upper middle tier.  We currently have 35 nations below 17 cities, versus 84 at 17/18 and 24 at 19 and up.  So calling us a lower tier AA or suggesting we have a horde of tiny nations to throw at our opponents isn't really accurate. Now, I do agree that upper mid tier folks can score compress to avoid the largest players, but they're still vulnerable to sell downs (Ripper managed to sell down to hit a couple of BK guys in an 11 city downdec not too long ago, for example) or getting sniped from below by people that are actually in the low tier (think Pantheon if it was organized a bit differently and coordinated better).  This means that having some upper tier support (an advantage that every other sphere enjoys by the way, including your own) fills a capability gap that BK has traditionally been lacking and only grows in importance now that we no longer enjoy IQ-style dominance in the mid tier.  After all, NPO currently has 72 nations at 17 cities and 28 at 18 cities (a higher number than BK) and significant upper tier support in the form of tS.  BK's 108 17 city and up guys can't exactly score compress to avoid getting hit by someone like that, now can they?

Edited by Curufinwe
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Just for the record, BK made the conscious decision not to grow a top tier.  The issue lies within themselves and any argument from them about others having a top tier shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Granted with the split of IQ and mentioning that part of the split was to do their own thing (IE: grow), I expect this will change.

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32 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

Actually, BK is solidly upper middle tier.  We currently have 35 nations below 17 cities, versus 84 at 17/18 and 24 at 19 and up.  So calling us a lower tier AA or suggesting we have a horde of tiny nations to throw at our opponents isn't really accurate. Now, I do agree that upper mid tier folks can score compress to avoid the largest players, but they're still vulnerable to sell downs (Ripper managed to sell down to hit a couple of BK guys in an 11 city downdec not too long ago, for example) or getting sniped from below by people that are actually in the low tier (think Pantheon if it was organized a bit differently and coordinated better).  This means that having some upper tier support (an advantage that every other sphere enjoys by the way, including your own) fills a capability gap that BK has traditionally been lacking and only grows in importance now that we no longer enjoy IQ-style dominance in the mid tier.  After all, NPO currently has 72 nations at 17 cities and 28 at 18 cities (a higher number than BK) and significant upper tier support in the form of tS.  BK's 108 17 city and up guys can't exactly score compress to avoid getting hit by someone like that, now can they?

NPO? Be a man and fight them lol.

Edited by The Royalist

aka Filip, The Royalist or Tremor

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Guest Curufinwe
20 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Just for the record, BK made the conscious decision not to grow a top tier.  The issue lies within themselves and any argument from them about others having a top tier shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Granted with the split of IQ and mentioning that part of the split was to do their own thing (IE: grow), I expect this will change.

Well, BK has never had many large nations - that's not a new thing or even a specifically IQ issue.  Even under Yoso and Strum we had difficulty retaining higher tier members, both because our growth policies were heavily slanted towards new recruits (based on the reasoning that it was more cost effective to invest in smaller players than large ones) and due the fact that our relative lack of big nations encouraged those who did grow past a certain point to leave, since we couldn't adequately defend them (Zoot got rolled into the ground every war he fought in BK, for example).  But that being said, I don't really follow your point.  How does the fact that we've identified an issue with our tiering make our opinion on the subject invalid?  I mean TGH apparently decided that your sphere would be well served by adding the upper tier heft that Guardian and GOB represent to your mostly upper middle tier and lower upper tier nations. Does that mean that we should ignore your opinion when you talk about whales?  Or is your argument that we should just grow our own upper tier and not sign anyone that can help support us in an area where we're weak?  If so, couldn't the same be said of any AA that signs someone who has different strengths than they do?

6 minutes ago, The Royalist said:

NPO? Be a man and fight them lol.

Third time's the charm?

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Of course we approached Grumpy and Guardian.  Did you see them fight last war?  Against the odds?  You'd be a damn fool to ignore them while everybody else is making moves.  I did the same thing with KT, as well as Empyrea/Roz Wei, after seeing their efforts in their own respective fronts from conflicts they got involved with.

>is your argument that we should just grow our own upper tier

That should've been done years ago.  Both BK and TKR grew together in this game, and only one of them continued while the other stagnated (Nation wise that is.  Member wise, you guys gorged yourselves on those mergers).

>and not sign anyone that can help support us in an area where we're weak?

You signed TCW, the one alliance that had the most lackluster war performance recently despite their tiering.  If that's the support you're looking for, well, I hope they improve for your sake.

Edited by Buorhann
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6 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Last I checked, they had the most activity in the last major war out of all the alliances involved.

Okay. My point is that I don't see how much of what they did is odd defying. I'd see their performance as a pretty natural consequence of their tiering and political positioning rather than the unforseen.

(I might be at danger of leading into a tangent here though, because I generally think people overvalue stats as a measure of war performance, and I am assuming that is what you're basing some of your "activity" assessment on? :P)

Edited by Spaceman Thrax

Slaughter the shits of the world. They poison the air you breathe.

 

~ William S. Burroughs

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9 minutes ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Okay. My point is that I don't see how much of what they did is odd defying. I'd see their performance as a pretty natural consequence of their tiering and political positioning rather than the unforseen.

(I might be at danger of leading into a tangent here though, because I generally think people overvalue stats as a measure of war performance, and I am assuming that is what you're basing some of your "activity" assessment on? :P)

No, I was looking at which alliances fell into inactivity and which ones didn't.  Granted the stats didn't hurt either.

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24 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I understand that downplaying the fact that we steamrolled the entire upper tier of which you were a part of in 2 days makes you look bad.  I assume every alliance out there has the activity and coordination to do that.

Hee. Far be it from me to wrap my low city count brain around your superior active logic, but I think you mean that it would make me look good. Please straighten out your post coordination.

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Slaughter the shits of the world. They poison the air you breathe.

 

~ William S. Burroughs

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2 hours ago, Buorhann said:

Of course we approached Grumpy and Guardian.  Did you see them fight last war?  Against the odds?

I don't have anything in particular to settle in this thread, but this part caught my attention (in the good way). I didn't note Grumpy's performance enough, so I won't comment on their's, but I definitely agree with Buorhann here; Guardian is by far one of the best alliances one could hope to have as an ally. Memph and Vanek are some of the best military minds to grace this game, and their general membership is no less competent. They're incredibly chill out of game too. Solid decision, Hippo.

Edited by Dio Brando
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