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What Do PnW Players Believe On Gun Control?


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Do You Believe in Gun Control?  

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  1. 1. Do You Believe in Gun Control?

    • I believe firearm ownership should be illegal, and I support PnW's current peacetime.
      1
    • I believe firearm ownership should be illegal, and I hope the next war happens sooner than later.
      10
    • I believe firearm ownership should be restricted to non-automatic weapons, and I support PnW's current peacetime.
      6
    • I believe firearm ownership should be restricted to non-automatic weapons, and I hope the next war happens sooner than later.
      10
    • I believe firearm ownership should be unrestricted, and I support PnW's current peacetime.
      2
    • I believe firearm ownership should be unrestricted, and I hope the next war happens sooner than later.
      9
    • I believe firearm ownership should be unlicensed, and I support PnW's current peacetime.
      1
    • I believe firearm ownership should be unlicensed, and I hope the next war happens sooner than later.
      3
    • Gun control isn't a priority to me, and I support PnW's current peacetime.
      0
    • Gun control isn't a priority to me, and I hope the next war happens sooner than later.
      6


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Bro, again feel free to argue with me but you wont change my mind, and if guns were banned, he wouldn't have been able to grab a bunch of guns from his parents HOUSE and start shooting kids.  Could he have still done something to hurt a bunch of people? Possible, but it would have been much harder to do.  Just ask the 30k people that kill themselves with guns every year.  Oh sorry you can't they are also dead.

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1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Bro, again feel free to argue with me but you wont change my mind, and if guns were banned, he wouldn't have been able to grab a bunch of guns from his parents HOUSE and start shooting kids.  Could he have still done something to hurt a bunch of people? Possible, but it would have been much harder to do.  Just ask the 30k people that kill themselves with guns every year.  Oh sorry you can't they are also dead.

First of all, you can get guns via black market, you don't see criminals and drug dealers waiting in line to hand their weapons to the government. Even if those weapons were purchased legally we still must support the right to bear arms, as human brutality is eternal. Better to have a thousand benefits than one imaginary problem. Jesus, on the USA alone you have billions of defensive usage of weapons every year, those people would be dead if they had to relay on the kindbess of the aggressor.

You can make homemade bombs with just a few search on the internet, no need to have PhD.

The argument that people that commit suicide wouldn't do so in other conditions is ridiculous. As we may see in Australia the rate of suicide by firearms indeed decreased, they are now cutting their wrists or hanging themselves.

The principle of having a weapon is to defend yourself against attacks. Giving up your right is a submission and leave you as a prey on a duck hunt season.

Edited by Migraine d'al Braskia
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Yes because the black market is as easy as going to your parents gun closet and grabbing a bunch of guns.  And its been shown that if you make it harder to kill yourself, you are less likely to do it. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/struck-living/201012/can-obstacle-prevent-suicide Also it's much harder to save a person with a bullet in their brain than a person that slit their wrists or popped a bunch of pills.

I guess its a good thing stuff like mace doesn't exist.  I say its better to get rid of thousands of problems than one imaginary benefit (i can just type random made up shit too!)  In the US alone, you have kajillions of criminal uses of firearms every year (see i did it again).  We get rid of all those guns, criminal threats drop, you dont need to arm your police any more, and then cops stop killing people by accident... its crazy how this spirals down to more and more positive things. 

But I get it, guns are fun to shoot, and they give you the illusion of security.  I just dont see that as enough justification to let every jackass walking down the street have one.

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43 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Yes because the black market is as easy as going to your parents gun closet and grabbing a bunch of guns.  And its been shown that if you make it harder to kill yourself, you are less likely to do it. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/struck-living/201012/can-obstacle-prevent-suicide Also it's much harder to save a person with a bullet in their brain than a person that slit their wrists or popped a bunch of pills.

I guess its a good thing stuff like mace doesn't exist.  I say its better to get rid of thousands of problems than one imaginary benefit (i can just type random made up shit too!)  In the US alone, you have kajillions of criminal uses of firearms every year (see i did it again).  We get rid of all those guns, criminal threats drop, you dont need to arm your police any more, and then cops stop killing people by accident... its crazy how this spirals down to more and more positive things. 

But I get it, guns are fun to shoot, and they give you the illusion of security.  I just dont see that as enough justification to let every jackass walking down the street have one.

So please, explain to me how it would work, because UK is not faring too well.

https://www.npr.org/2017/07/29/540214675/acid-attacks-at-epidemic-lev

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/guns-in-other-countries/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Compared to the USA.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12

Books of Joyce Lee Malcolm and John Lott even expose that the lowest crime rate was around the 17 century after the government allowed to use guns for self-defence.

As suicides goes, you may be correct. But I may say that at least in Australia the opposite is true.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/526a/200e5586c3feaf984027fed9106ff5941a81.pdf

And by the way, what I said was something similar to Cesare Becaria. Wasn't made by me.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/92090-false-is-the-idea-of-utility-that-sacrifices-a-thousand

“False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that it has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are of such a nature. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

 

Edited by Migraine d'al Braskia
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How is it going to work? who the hell knows, I am not going to pretend that I have an answer.  I will say, i used to be of the opinion if you aren't hurting anyone, I dont really give a shit what you do, but I am sick of this gun violence, so get rid of them all, and when you do, good riddance.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Ill be honest with you Wisdom, you aren't going to change my mind here,

so you can argue or try to poke holes in what I post all you want, but i have seen first hand what happens to a community when an !@#$ walks into a school and starts shooting kids.  (FYI one of the parents killed himself in our town hall this week)

And frankly your right to own 15 guns isn't worth it in my opinion. 

And you are full of shit to say that making a bomb is easier than getting a gun, if it was easier, we would see a bunch of school bombings and not school shootings. 

Cool.

I'm sorry that happened to your community.

*24.

I said make, not obtain. Guns are obviously easier as we have ~400 to 600 million in the country, whereas explosives are more regulated. In a country with no pools, there would be very few drownings. In a hypothetical country with laser guns, that country would lead the world in laser gun deaths. As Inst pointed out, guns are frequently used because they are sensationalized. The shooter effectively monopolizes the media for the next month or two and are brought up in national politics frequently years later. On the other hand, the two or three attempted mail bombers since 2016 have had almost no attention once they were caught. The Austin bomber received very little national media attention. Granted, part of the reason is their lack of a sizeable body count. However, I stand by my statement that bombs are more effective. You brought up schools earlier in your post. Are you aware that the Bath School Massacre is the deadliest attack on an American school and it didn't involve any firearms?

You would be surprised how easy it is to make a bomb. I bet you have most, if not all the materials at your home. TM 31-210 is out on the internet for whatever reason.

1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

How is it going to work? who the hell knows, I am not going to pretend that I have an answer.  I will say, i used to be of the opinion if you aren't hurting anyone, I dont really give a shit what you do, but I am sick of this gun violence, so get rid of them all, and when you do, good riddance. 

I'll be saving this for my "nobody is coming for your guns" responses, if you don't mind.

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1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

How is it going to work? who the hell knows, I am not going to pretend that I have an answer.  I will say, i used to be of the opinion if you aren't hurting anyone, I dont really give a shit what you do, but I am sick of this gun violence, so get rid of them all, and when you do, good riddance.

 

 

If you have no idea how to do this, what are the root cause and what would be the real effects then why do you support gun regulations?

Reality is based on facts and time after time we are staring at the same results, until now no place on Earth has ever seen a decrease in crime rates where gun control has taken place.

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(Had written it on mobile first, then passed it onto my laptop for better structuring and other stuff. Hence the white text).

Pretending that the guns are the (sole, at least) problem, and therefore banning them would get rid of the problem is nonsense. Criminals would simply source from the black market, homemake, or resort to knives or other cold weapons, the latter which is a pattern among the countries the U.S. is compared to. People who're feeling really suicidal are just going to take the pills, leave the car running in a closed environment, meet the noose or go take a bath with the toaster. Taking the guns will just stop a few; actually caring for them will save a many more.

(Before you bring it up, I have no issue in comparing Argentina and the U.S. in this regard, because it's about gun control in general. Furthermore, those pushing for it themselves tend to ignore the significant differences that exist between the U.S. and the countries it's often compared to [European nations in general, and Japan in particular]. Comparing the U.S. and Argentina because it's the countries whose gun legislation I know the best of, and it's easier for me to find info on either).


Just as a reference point, in Argentina, we have pretty hefty control (need not only a permit [and training], but also a copy of either your salary's receipt, or net commerce earnings [so no, jobless folk or criminals don't have easy if any access to them]. No self-loading rifles outside of .22LR's and fixed mags [basically only M1 Garands; SKS's got banned by name]. Technically two different licenses [one allows for .22's and .25 ACP, plus I believe 16 gauge. The other allows for the rest outside of .50's and whatnot]), and we have 6 deaths to firearms per 100k people, while the U.S. has 12 per 100k. It sounds great, until you realize that Argentina has a fraction of guns per 100 people that the U.S. has (10 vs 112, likely bigger gap nowadays since it's a 2007 report), and that Argentina's homicides with firearms ranked at 44,5% versus the U.S.' 37.3% (in 2016. Different dates because this is what I could source). And you have to consider that 32,2% of the gun-related deaths in Argentina are unknown in motivation (means that the actual homicide rate, albeit unknown, is higher).

(Suicides not covered due to a lack of reliable sources that set apart which for who. The best I could find is that hanging is the most common for both sexes, and then it's guns for men and poisoning for women for 2nd favorite).


So, what's the reason for the higher firearm homicide rate in Argentina than the U.S., in spite of the gun control and far less guns in circulation, both in totals and per 100 people, you may ask?

Socioeconomic factors (we undeniably have it plenty worse off than the U.S., to be fair), too soft of a penal code to dissuade criminals from committing crime, gun control itself (unlike as claimed here, guns have a far bigger role in self-defence than as stated. Elaborated further below), plus legislation, hampering law-abiding citizens from being able to properly defend themselves, powerless police force due to how the laws are set up (between both, ALWAYS pick the one the U.S. has without a second doubt) etc, are why.

I could continue on the comparisons, but I've made my point clear. Gun grabbing doesn't translate into direct drops in gun violence. You need actual, long term solutions to fix violence, be it gun based or of any sort. For the U.S. in particular, those would be to work on the mental health and the socioeconomic gap that exists there, at least for a start. Gun control is, at best, a cheap band-aid. Addressing health, education and economy is what will truly make a dent on those homicide and violence rates.


Also, something that most people tend to forget when arguing about the subject; the role of firearms in defensive situations and thwarting crime. Contrary to the negative feels some may have in that regard, it is a statistical fact (study here), that even on the low ball counts, the general agreement is that they stop as many crime attempts as they are used for crime. Higher figures suggest that they are used twice or thrice more often for self-defence than crime. Another page which sources directly to govt reports:
 

Quote

-CRIME AND SELF DEFENCE-

* Roughly 16,459 murders were committed in the United States during 2016. Of these, about 11,961 or 73% were committed with firearms.[17] [18]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.” This amounted to 162,000 such incidents per year. This excludes all “military service, police work, or work as a security guard.”[19]

* Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5.9 million violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2014.[20] [21] These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[22] Of these, about 600,000 or 10% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[23]

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[24] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[25]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere.” This amounted to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This excludes all “military service, police work, or work as a security guard.”[26]

It is frankly dishonest to pretend that these don't matter, when it is a mere fact that guns have a sizable role in allowing civilians to fend off criminals and defend themselves. Arguing about gun control without factoring in the instances where they are being used to do good would be akin to arguing about cannabis regulation/ban without factoring in the medical benefits it has going for it.

7 hours ago, WISD0MTREE said:

guns are frequently used because they are sensationalized

Correct.

More people remember about Columbine than the Boston bombing. In one hand, yeah Columbine netted more deaths. However, it happened nearly 20 years ago, while Boston only happened 6 years ago, and Boston did amount to three figure injured, a number who also lost their limb/s. Not to mention that it was done in the middle of a pretty well broadcast marathon. Columbine also symbolizes the fruitlessness of the AWB, on that note.

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
Clarification.
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Politicians like to use gun control as a platform since they don’t need to address the real underlying problem. Although if police and private security have guns then they are still in circulation for the population and obtainable to criminals for a price.

People can 3D Print guns as well & make them other ways. So trying to ban them is a pointless sacrifice in liberty for security.

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17 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

More people remember about Columbine than the Boston bombing. In one hand, yeah Columbine netted more deaths. However, it happened nearly 20 years ago, while Boston only happened 6 years ago, and Boston did amount to three figure injured, a number who also lost their limb/s. Not to mention that it was done in the middle of a pretty well broadcast marathon. Columbine also symbolizes the fruitlessness of the AWB, on that note. 

And the Boston Bombing also effectively shut down almost a third of one of the largest US cities for days and pulled law enforcement from around the country for the manhunt.

17 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

SKS's got banned by name

Can you import guns easily? I'm considering becoming a licensed manufacturer. If it's just by name and easy to import, I could (hypothetically) take an SKS, destroy the receiver, create a new one, make a few minor changes, and sell you my totally original SOKS. That's what H&K did back when the H&K 91 got banned by name in the US while some were sitting in customs; H&K 911s were created.

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12 minutes ago, WISD0MTREE said:

Can you import guns easily? I'm considering becoming a licensed manufacturer. If it's just by name and easy to import, I could (hypothetically) take an SKS, destroy the receiver, create a new one, make a few minor changes, and sell you my totally original SOKS. That's what H&K did back when the H&K 91 got banned by name in the US while some were sitting in customs; H&K 911s were created.

Nope. It's a years-long process, and knowing how this country operates likely charged up the ass. It'd be more cost effective to just buy a Garand.

Also, I went back and re-checked the status of the SKS, because from what I recalled it was banned from civvie use unless the mag was welded shut so that it couldn't be swapped with aftermarket parts. I was wrong. They just lumped all of the SKS pattern rifles as exclusive "Armed Institutions" (Police/Gendarmerie/Armed Forces) weaponry, regardless of it's condition. So there's no working around that.

 

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3 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

Nope. It's a years-long process, and knowing how this country operates likely charged up the ass. It'd be more cost effective to just buy Garand.

Also, I went back and re-checked the status of the SKS, because from what I recalled it was banned from civvie use unless the mag was welded shut so that it couldn't be swapped with aftermarket parts. I was wrong. They just lumped all of the SKS pattern rifles as exclusive "Armed Institutions" (Police/Gendarmerie/Armed Forces) weaponry, regardless of it's condition. So there's no working around that.

Dang. Well, it was worth a shot (pun intended).

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1 hour ago, WISD0MTREE said:

Dang. Well, it was worth a shot (pun intended).

Kek.

A couple of years ago, my friend and I had thought of finding a loophole around the magazine thing and other stuff. Such as .223 being allowed since it's technically a .22 bullet or Cali compliant style of guns. Unfortunately the text does say that adaptions of military firearms are only gucci in .22 LR, so that fell on the wayside.

In the meantime, criminals run around with homemade guns or stolen (many times from armories themselves) FMK-3's, Halcons and whatnot. There was also a scandal over police-issue handguns making their way into the black market too. You'd figure that those would be enough indication that gun control isn't really working, but apparently not.

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
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7 minutes ago, Croaker said:

Why does dubs like being controversial 

I don't think this is controversial. The debate forum used to be much more controversial. Now it's dead.

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On 3/28/2019 at 1:15 AM, WISD0MTREE said:

It is very on topic. If a criminal can't obtain a gun, they'll use another tool, such as acid. Britain is a prime example.

The discussion was specifically relating to gun control not other criminal behaviours but I get your point regarding accessibility and other weapon usage.

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