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Yoda

2018 P&W Award Voting

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9 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Those aren't relevant, but nice try though.

The fact that Kastor and co. ignored them doesn't discount them.

9 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

I don't see those people complaining here. I see them doing so months ago. Right here, right now, only NPO members still have a problem. Thrax's problem is that its run by Kastor and nothing more, so he doesn't even count. 

So....why does that mean it doesn't count? Half of what we're saying now is that Kastor ignores input from anyone he disagrees with, which is essentially what Thrax said.

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2 hours ago, Edward I said:

The only coherent reason given for hosting them offsite was to make the winners a surprise to be revealed on a radio show. However, as cool as Orbis Weekly and Great Job! Are, they aren't official representatives of PW.

The idea to have a radio show to unveil the winners sounded like a fun idea for the community. Trying different ideas is what keeps a community alive. (RIP CN)

As I understand it, your issue isn’t necessarily with this particular awards voting procedure, rather you are against the principle of it not being hosted in an official capacity where there is no oversight by an admin/moderation. However - Odds are, Alex doesn’t actually give a rip about the awards, he’s more concerned with making sure the community is healthy. It sounds like a member of the community who has already hosted the awards went to him and asked to do something different, and he (Alex) felt it was an alright idea. I don’t necessarily understand the backlash when he and others are putting in all of this work to try and make something special for the community. It would be one thing if it was some random person doing this, but it’s the same individual who has previously hosted the awards on behalf of PnW.

 

What if @Alex included a link in-game to Dynamic’s off-site voting platform, would that help make it feel more legit?

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4 hours ago, Buorhann said:

If anything, there’s more of a IQ aligned presence than others in this.  Not that I care about it.  It’s only fluff stuff.

Would be interesting to see these award things move to a Popular/Electoral vote system, since it looks like we’re going in that direction.

So when should we adjust to this system?

Have the popular vote for the masses, have the electors to balance out the voting~

That way there’s oversight on those who spam votes.

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1 hour ago, Kastor said:

Yes, because changing the voting method halfway through the vote seems fair. Getting rid of the votes for the people who either don’t have forum accounts or can’t get them also seems fair. 

 

#Sarcasm

Uhh think you missed my point.

I was saying "using your premise that it is unfair to exclude people based on having a forums account, why did you only collect nominations from people with a forums account"? You didn't message people in game until after the nominations were done, so now you have a vote that only has partial representation on who people may actually vote for, do you not?

I didn't suggest you should change it midway through the vote. I suggested you should have used the same methodology from the start. Which you probably would have thought of, if you had the super-representative pnw brain trust you claimed to. : )

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1 hour ago, Prefontaine said:

Man, there's a lot of TKR-sphere representation there. 

The NPO cries are drowning out all the EMC cries. 

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32 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

giphy.gif

More concerned with making sure the community exists/is giving him money*

It’s all subjective. 

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There are several issues with switching to forum voting at this point:

  • Wasting the time of hundreds of players who have already voted. Not everyone wants to vote again
  • Reducing Dynamic's work to nothing
  • Ruining the radio show which people are looking forward to

I think the best option is to let things run their course. Any changes should be made in 2020

Personally I find it pretty ironic that the NPO guys have more spheremates in our team than other alliances and yet they are complaining the loudest in this thread. It's almost as if you don't trust your allies to "watch" the system on your behalf

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You don't like it, I'll have the alternative forum polls set up in a few hours.

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9 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

 

And heres whats inherently problematic with the system a) its close door. b) I have to randomly trust individuals over a vote thats for the entire community. c) Theres no transparent manner to actually look at the votes as they come in. 

If its a community system, the simplest way is to run the forum vote, its far better and the outreach can be done, since its picking a place for people to vote in. I absolutely do not trust a self-appointed board of arbitrators. The only means for the community at large to ensure transparency if its done here, since there are systems of checks and balances. This really isn't me arguing against a new and shiny thing and the obverse to this argument is true, just because theres a new and shiny thing, doesn't make it better. This system is rife with potential misuse when its supposed to represent the community at large, and you nor anyone else on this board were appointed by anyone else other than yourselves. At the end of the day, the only means to ensure the vote is transparent, is here and not on someone else's server, since this deals specifically with voting mechanisms (also why democracy sucks in games!). 

 

So no, I'm not against a new and shiny thing, just don't think the old method was broken to introduce a new and shiny thing, let alone something that raises questions to the entire process. I stated this earlier to Kastor when he first posted it up in December on NPO's discord, and I'm stating it again. This new method could be so easily questioned and if its "PnW's" awards, I'd prefer it was held on an official "PnW" forums when it involves voting mechanisms and choices. 

The vote is transparent, or more accurately will be after the awards are announced on the show. At that point, the data will be publicly available, so if you actually want to manually validate every one of the 13 thousand ballots that were sent, and ask every single one of the almost a thousand players that have cast a vote if their vote was tabulated properly, then you can in fact do so. There's no greater transparency than that; every nation has a ballot, every ballot has a nation, every vote has a ballot, and they're all in a list. Count them if you want; I'd offer to hand-check them myself but you'd have to trust that I did that properly regardless, so you'd be better served by hand-checking the data yourself anyway.

Simply put, you have to trust something either way. Why is it exactly that you'd trust this site more than Dynamic's? Should we start casting doubt on NPO's war stats page because it's maintained by NPO behind closed doors and relies on our trust that NPO isn't fudging the data? Micchan's memeing notwithstanding, this system is just as trustworthy as your war stats. If your off-site system can be trusted then why can't this one?

As for the site, I've looked at it and according to Avast, it is clean. Dynamic did his virus scans and doesn't even have access to any personally identifiable information. His site doesn't ask for your username, password, or email. The link doesn't execute any suspicious code; it's no more than a form submission just like the way you posted right here. Even if we hosted it on these forums then the same questions of trust would still exist. There's no certainty in anything, other than validation, and the validation is a thing that can be done.

27 minutes ago, Frawley said:

It's not about watching anything, these awards have an official forum for the purposes of holding these votes. One that doesn't require players to hand over a unique identifier along with their IP to a third party that they have not agreed to any terms of service with.

Now I have received an assurance from Dynamic that this personal data won't be retained on his server to ensure compliance with GDPR regulations, and I'll take him at his word on that, but the fact is, we have all agreed to terms on our personal data with Alex, not Dynamic.  I'm all for automation, I don't even care about keeping the results secret for radio, but I don't like that we have to associate our in game persona with our IPs on a stranger's server.

You could use a VPN or proxy to vote, if you really want to. Your IP isn't what matters, it's your nation ID, which is already public.

2 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

i would like to unsubscribe to the mass email, who do i contact about that?

You can block Dynamic ingame, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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14 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

As for the site, I've looked at it and according to Avast, it is clean. Dynamic did his virus scans and doesn't even have access to any personally identifiable information. His site doesn't ask for your username, password, or email. The link doesn't execute any suspicious code; it's no more than a form submission just like the way you posted right here. Even if we hosted it on these forums then the same questions of trust would still exist. There's no certainty in anything, other than validation, and the validation is a thing that can be done.

You could use a VPN or proxy to vote, if you really want to. Your IP isn't what matters, it's your nation ID, which is already public.

My IP is now associated with my Nation ID, as they provided a unique code to me for my ballot paper and all webservers track pageloads at an IP level. From my IP you can now get my rough location, time zone, potentially my employer if I voted from work.

The point is, I share my IP with Alex voluntarily after agreeing to his terms of service which cover how he will handle my data. I have no agreement with Dynamic and having played other games where people have used similar methods to gather data for either in game leverage, or doxing (/b/ comes to mind) its not something I want to see that common.

It's one of the reasons we don't require a forum account to use our war stats pages.

Edited by Frawley
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Just talked to the team and I have something to propose: Dynamic could give the code to Alex and have him host it here on politicsandwar.com for the next Yearly Award. Would you guys be more comfortable with that?

Edited by Yoda
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1 minute ago, Yoda said:

Just talked to the team and I have something to propose: Dynamic could give the code to Alex and have him host it here on politicsandwar.com for the next Yearly Award. Would you guys be more comfortable with that?

Absolutely.

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27 minutes ago, Frawley said:

My IP is now associated with my Nation ID, as they provided a unique code to me for my ballot paper and all webservers track pageloads at an IP level. From my IP you can now get my rough location, time zone, potentially my employer if I voted from work.

The point is, I share my IP with Alex voluntarily after agreeing to his terms of service which cover how he will handle my data. I have no agreement with Dynamic and having played other games where people have used similar methods to gather data for either in game leverage, or doxing (/b/ comes to mind) its not something I want to see that common.

It's one of the reasons we don't require a forum account to use our war stats pages.

Yes, that's why you can use a VPN or proxy to change the IP that's visible to Dynamic's web page and thus deny the potential for him to track your IP, like I said.

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22 minutes ago, Frawley said:

My IP is now associated with my Nation ID, as they provided a unique code to me for my ballot paper and all webservers track pageloads at an IP level. From my IP you can now get my rough location, time zone, potentially my employer if I voted from work.

The point is, I share my IP with Alex voluntarily after agreeing to his terms of service which cover how he will handle my data. I have no agreement with Dynamic and having played other games where people have used similar methods to gather data for either in game leverage, or doxing (/b/ comes to mind) its not something I want to see that common.

It's one of the reasons we don't require a forum account to use our war stats pages.

Then don’t participate. You’re asking us to change everything. The bar for you guys keeps moving.

First it was attacks on me, saying I couldn’t be counted on to do the votes right, even though I’ve hosted them before.

Then it was that it was a “community event” and this was hurting the community, which was debunked by showing that more people had voted than before. 

Then it was that we would rig the vote, until it was shown that multipe people from different alliances were in charge and that none of that could/should take place.

Now it’s that your IP MAY be given to a player, and you’re not okay with that.

 

When people ask why I ignore your complaints, and the complaints of the people in this thread, it’s not because I don’t think some things you mention are warranted, or that I’m on a power trip, it’s literally because you don’t actually care about the awards or anything like that. You just want to complain.

People are excited for the awards, they want to tune into the radio show, they want the awards presented this way. We have done everything in our power to continue with our plans AND cater to your issues. But at the end of the day, the overlying issue is that you just want to have a problem.

We’re not changing the system. Any questions can be directed at Dynamic or me, either in this thread or PM. But nothing is changing. 

 

On a side note: I think it’s interesting that you were offered a seat at the table to check things out and get involved, and you, to this moment, haven’t. I think that speaks volumes about where your interests actually lie.

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4 hours ago, Kastor said:

Yes, because changing the voting method halfway through the vote seems fair. Getting rid of the votes for the people who either don’t have forum accounts or can’t get them also seems fair. 

 

#Sarcasm

“We should only allow those who are 100% informed vote- because....Democracy?”

Who said democracy is good?

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4 minutes ago, Kastor said:

Then don’t participate. You’re asking us to change everything. The bar for you guys keeps moving.

First it was attacks on me, saying I couldn’t be counted on to do the votes right, even though I’ve hosted them before.

Then it was that it was a “community event” and this was hurting the community, which was debunked by showing that more people had voted than before. 

Then it was that we would rig the vote, until it was shown that multipe people from different alliances were in charge and that none of that could/should take place.

Now it’s that your IP MAY be given to a player, and you’re not okay with that.

 

When people ask why I ignore your complaints, and the complaints of the people in this thread, it’s not because I don’t think some things you mention are warranted, or that I’m on a power trip, it’s literally because you don’t actually care about the awards or anything like that. You just want to complain.

People are excited for the awards, they want to tune into the radio show, they want the awards presented this way. We have done everything in our power to continue with our plans AND cater to your issues. But at the end of the day, the overlying issue is that you just want to have a problem.

We’re not changing the system. Any questions can be directed at Dynamic or me, either in this thread or PM. But nothing is changing. 

 

On a side note: I think it’s interesting that you were offered a seat at the table to check things out and get involved, and you, to this moment, haven’t. I think that speaks volumes about where your interests actually lie.

For a start, Shadowthorne and I are different people despite the Roqbot memes.  If you read my original post, my objection has always been to it not being hosted on the PW server. I don't give a rats about the result being kept secret, I don't think you are going to count it incorrectly, and I trust George to scruitineer appropriately.  I simply asked who the scruitineers were and noted that we were not asked to my knowledge.

Also its not that people's IPs may be recorded alongside something the publically identifies them, they will because that is how web servers work.

As someone who also invests a significant amount of time providing a service to PW nations (having done war stats for 3 globals now) I respect and appreciate the effort that goes into these events, and I don't expect it to change at this point, I just don't think is an ideal solution. Yoda's proposal however is fine for me.

With regards to your offer for me to scruitineer, apologies I missed it as I have really only been following replies to my questions. I'll reiterate, I don't think you are going to fudge the results and certainly it wouldn't be possible to 100% verify without looking at server logs and I don't want to get into that because of the aforementioned privacy issues. If the offer is still valid I'll be happy to assist, although given I spend most of my PW time responding to stats enquiries I don't know how much help I will be.

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1 hour ago, Yoda said:

There are several issues with switching to forum voting at this point:

  • Wasting the time of hundreds of players who have already voted. Not everyone wants to vote again
  • Reducing Dynamic's work to nothing
  • Ruining the radio show which people are looking forward to

I think the best option is to let things run their course. Any changes should be made in 2020

Personally I find it pretty ironic that the NPO guys have more spheremates in our team than other alliances and yet they are complaining the loudest in this thread. It's almost as if you don't trust your allies to "watch" the system on your behalf

Or they just see the bullcrap for what it is and aren't afraid to call it that. 

 

The point of all of this was to allow for a big reveal surprise show for the radio stuff. Here's the problem, the only people who seem to want it are the people running it. Everyone else is seemingly apathetic or against it. Trying to run an event a certain way for the joy of the people running it, rather than the people partaking in it is a failure in the part of the people organizing (see: you all). This whole thing has been beyond miss handled from the get go and I doubt you'll see more than maybe 5 extra listeners to the radio show, cus guess what you run your radio show at a time when very few will stick around to see the big reveal of the awards. If anything people will just wait to see them announced the next day and then !@#$ about how it was rigged (which they would have done even if it was on the forums, just a little less so).

 

So here's what you idiots have done. You've taken a pointless contest that really no one cares much about, because the deserving people/alliances rarely actually win, and there is NO benefit to winning or losing and have turned it into a fustcluck of a headache for the joy of the people running the damn event. Wake the fark up. I couldn't care less about the awards and even I can see how much you guys are screwing this whole thing up. It might've been a good idea in thought but when enough people (on your own side as you've pointed out) started !@#$ing about how it's being done, you might've realized you farked up. But no. You keep chugging along.

 

How you are so oblivious to your own frick ups is beyond me. "HEY GUYS IT'LL BE FUN BECAUSE WE THINK IT'S FUN DOING IT THIS WAY". 

 

The thought never crossed your mind that you could actually be wrong. 

 

eDXiZyP.gif

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30 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Or they just see the bullcrap for what it is and aren't afraid to call it that. 

 

The point of all of this was to allow for a big reveal surprise show for the radio stuff. Here's the problem, the only people who seem to want it are the people running it. Everyone else is seemingly apathetic or against it. Trying to run an event a certain way for the joy of the people running it, rather than the people partaking in it is a failure in the part of the people organizing (see: you all). This whole thing has been beyond miss handled from the get go and I doubt you'll see more than maybe 5 extra listeners to the radio show, cus guess what you run your radio show at a time when very few will stick around to see the big reveal of the awards. If anything people will just wait to see them announced the next day and then !@#$ about how it was rigged (which they would have done even if it was on the forums, just a little less so).

 

So here's what you idiots have done. You've taken a pointless contest that really no one cares much about, because the deserving people/alliances rarely actually win, and there is NO benefit to winning or losing and have turned it into a fustcluck of a headache for the joy of the people running the damn event. Wake the fark up. I couldn't care less about the awards and even I can see how much you guys are screwing this whole thing up. It might've been a good idea in thought but when enough people (on your own side as you've pointed out) started !@#$ing about how it's being done, you might've realized you farked up. But no. You keep chugging along.

 

How you are so oblivious to your own frick ups is beyond me. "HEY GUYS IT'LL BE FUN BECAUSE WE THINK IT'S FUN DOING IT THIS WAY". 

 

The thought never crossed your mind that you could actually be wrong. 

 

eDXiZyP.gif

At the end of the day, this whole shabang isn’t a big deal. Keshav and Frawley made some good points as to why doing it the way it was done was a mistake, and it looks like the people running the vote took the feedback and came to a solution that people could get behind.

When it comes down to it, it’s an attempt by some folk to do something nice for the community. I’m happy to help by using a medium that people seem to enjoy.

These guys have done enough to drum up enough interest to gather Hundreds of votes.

You indicate that the awards are pointless and people don’t care about them anyway, why not try doing it a different way?

Edited by Kevanovia
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3 hours ago, Yoda said:

There are several issues with switching to forum voting at this point:

  • Wasting the time of hundreds of players who have already voted. Not everyone wants to vote again
  • Reducing Dynamic's work to nothing
  • Ruining the radio show which people are looking forward to

I think the best option is to let things run their course. Any changes should be made in 2020

Personally I find it pretty ironic that the NPO guys have more spheremates in our team than other alliances and yet they are complaining the loudest in this thread. It's almost as if you don't trust your allies to "watch" the system on your behalf

Hey I’ve made it clear since Kastor announced the changes of my issues with it and his tone was well your dumb. I’ve been consistent with the idea of holding it off site in a secret manner and how that’s a problematic system. 

Its folks over here who’ve conflated my own issues with it as some sort of larger NPO scheme with the awards which is hilarious since your first defense when questioned is, “oh look it’s the NPO” when it has nothing to do with my AA or which side of the treaty web it comes with. When these issues were pointed out here on the forums through the most publicly available means of communication, Kastor retreated into his echo chamber.

My problem lies with verification after the fact and not during the process. For all I know in future events a sudden surge of broward county votes are to be found and the system as a precedent is ripe to misuse for what could have easily been handled multiple different ways. 

With regards to different NPOers having an issue with shouldn’t be your go to defense since we’re different players who have different issues with it. That certainly helps in trusting the folks who’re hosting it more.

There seem to be a whole spate of issues and at the end of the day, I’m fine with Alex hosting it here since that’s some oversight outside of a few players. That should have been done from the start and/or been discussed before the whole process was built and done when the issues were brought up in the original thread. By ignoring all of those posts and just carrying out in this half assed manner, further erodes any trust that we’re magically supposed to have. The last time the individuals involved hosted, it was done here and the entire process was open to scrutiny here, in this sub forum designed for it. The problems of less participation could have been solved in different manners if folks asked for suggestions rather than deciding for everyone else and refusing to listen to any and all problems from individuals present here. 

Also Sir Scarf, my point in community transparency lies with the fact that it’s a voting mechanism and that the only way we have any and all participation in the process outside of the vote to ensure there arent any questions regarding its validity, is if we all have access through the entire process. If you wish to verify the data used in the stats thread, feel free to take it from Alex and do it. The data is publicly available since it’s from the Admin of the game and any and all mistakes found with the work done by Frawley and LoD would only aid in ensuring more robust stat collection is ensured. I doubt Frawley and LoD would dismiss your concerns if you have valid concerns and that’s the point. The starting point is the same and that ensures better and more transparent oversight over something that’s being done for the community at large.

Edited by Shadowthrone
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