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2018 P&W Award Voting

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8 minutes ago, Pestilence said:

While i understand you point of view, its actually quite asinine, and this is why.

1. You stated the awards are something for "all of us". when in actuality .it alienates anyone who does not want to use the forums, or has not used the forums. Lets be honest here, the amount of players/forums accounts is very low and a huge part of the member base does not even know what the PnW awards are. In fact we have received around 2/3 times more submissions than any other year, in less than a week.  

2. "Proper Voting mechanism", i can say it woks just fine, part of the reason there is 7/8 of us working for the PnW awards this year isnt so Kastor can be lazy, its because we wanted to make sure there were enough people from around the game watching the "system" and making sure it works. I actually found it insulting you immediately jumped to a cheating standpoint. 

 

So before we go smashing a new idea that will help the community grow, lets take into account the other factors, lets not run away from shiny new things and enjoy them. The new voting system is working as planned and is allowing the awards to gauge the responses of every alliance and player in the game, without much effort while maintaining a fair and equal playing ground. #NoPlayerLeftBehind 

2 hours ago, Frawley said:

 

And heres whats inherently problematic with the system a) its close door. b) I have to randomly trust individuals over a vote thats for the entire community. c) Theres no transparent manner to actually look at the votes as they come in. 

If its a community system, the simplest way is to run the forum vote, its far better and the outreach can be done, since its picking a place for people to vote in. I absolutely do not trust a self-appointed board of arbitrators. The only means for the community at large to ensure transparency if its done here, since there are systems of checks and balances. This really isn't me arguing against a new and shiny thing and the obverse to this argument is true, just because theres a new and shiny thing, doesn't make it better. This system is rife with potential misuse when its supposed to represent the community at large, and you nor anyone else on this board were appointed by anyone else other than yourselves. At the end of the day, the only means to ensure the vote is transparent, is here and not on someone else's server, since this deals specifically with voting mechanisms (also why democracy sucks in games!). 

 

So no, I'm not against a new and shiny thing, just don't think the old method was broken to introduce a new and shiny thing, let alone something that raises questions to the entire process. I stated this earlier to Kastor when he first posted it up in December on NPO's discord, and I'm stating it again. This new method could be so easily questioned and if its "PnW's" awards, I'd prefer it was held on an official "PnW" forums when it involves voting mechanisms and choices. 

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31 minutes ago, Pestilence said:

While i understand you point of view, its actually quite asinine, and this is why.

1. You stated the awards are something for "all of us". when in actuality .it alienates anyone who does not want to use the forums, or has not used the forums. Lets be honest here, the amount of players/forums accounts is very low and a huge part of the member base does not even know what the PnW awards are. In fact we have received around 2/3 times more submissions than any other year, in less than a week.  

2. "Proper Voting mechanism", i can say it woks just fine, part of the reason there is 7/8 of us working for the PnW awards this year isnt so Kastor can be lazy, its because we wanted to make sure there were enough people from around the game watching the "system" and making sure it works. I actually found it insulting you immediately jumped to a cheating standpoint. 

 

So before we go smashing a new idea that will help the community grow, lets take into account the other factors, lets not run away from shiny new things and enjoy them. The new voting system is working as planned and is allowing the awards to gauge the responses of every alliance and player in the game, without much effort while maintaining a fair and equal playing ground. #NoPlayerLeftBehind 

IQ is present 😛

I'm certainly happier that you are present.

Out of interest, who owns/admins the server space for the voting results.

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5 minutes ago, Frawley said:

Out of interest, who owns/admins the server space for the voting results.

I believe Dynamic does at this time, but i will need to verify. 

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44 minutes ago, Frawley said:

I'm certainly happier that you are present.

Out of interest, who owns/admins the server space for the voting results.

Even if Gorge is present this whole methodology still leaves a huge issue that can be best solved by having the voting made public as the results come in. Any democratic legitimacy if you so want it needs to be able to be tracked real time.

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2 hours ago, Micchan said:

Sorry I can't trust NG

183129.png

 

To address the concerns, I'd just say there were plenty of opportunities for anyone in NPO to get involved, given Kastor asked for volunteers to help a number of weeks ago, and I think you guys could definitely get a chance to look things over, just ask! Dynamic has made a pretty neat system for voting, and there haven't been any issues thus far while already getting a lot of people to vote. Trust in the process guys 😉

 

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30 minutes ago, TheNG Rising said:

183129.png

 

To address the concerns, I'd just say there were plenty of opportunities for anyone in NPO to get involved, given Kastor asked for volunteers to help a number of weeks ago, and I think you guys could definitely get a chance to look things over, just ask! Dynamic has made a pretty neat system for voting, and there haven't been any issues thus far while already getting a lot of people to vote. Trust in the process guys 😉

 

 

Kastor knew of our opinions the moment the thread was made, and hasn't done anything to answer them except call those issues "dumb" and also ignore it. A lot of people knew about the opinions, theres a thread on it. He ignored it, and went on with it anyway, and here we are, with folks not particularly interested in secret ballots. 

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If anything, there’s more of a IQ aligned presence than others in this.  Not that I care about it.  It’s only fluff stuff.

Would be interesting to see these award things move to a Popular/Electoral vote system, since it looks like we’re going in that direction.

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Look, I’m going to just be honest. There’s ZERO chance that we switch to the forum voting at this time.

The reason I feel comfortable doing this is because they’re multiple people from multiple alliances looking and trusting everything for the awards. It’s next to impossible to rig them and if anything happened, the members of the team would see it.

 

As for NPO not being invited to help, I didn’t ask anyone, everyone volunteered. None of your guys did, so none of you guys are included.

 

Finally, stop !@#$ing. It’s way too late, and I already said a long time ago this is what was going to be done, and in all honesty I don’t give a flying frick if random people don’t like it. This is the biggest participation ever, so obviously we’re doing something right.

Please feel free to DM me about any concerns. Or feel free to post in this thread. We value the input of the community.

1 minute ago, Shadowthrone said:

 

Kastor knew of our opinions the moment the thread was made, and hasn't done anything to answer them except call those issues "dumb" and also ignore it. A lot of people knew about the opinions, theres a thread on it. He ignored it, and went on with it anyway, and here we are, with folks not particularly interested in secret ballots. 

The community at large > NPO. 

 

Sorry bud. :) 

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2 minutes ago, Kastor said:

The community at large > NPO. 

 

Sorry bud. :) 

Yeah just ignore the bunch of other folks who posted in that thread. It really isn't about which AA I come from, as much as been straight with you about the issues that you refused to engage with at any point. But good job ignoring anyone else who had issues with it, and bring it down to AAs. 

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2 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

Kastor knew of our opinions the moment the thread was made, and hasn't done anything to answer them except call those issues "dumb" and also ignore it. A lot of people knew about the opinions, theres a thread on it. He ignored it, and went on with it anyway, and here we are, with folks not particularly interested in secret ballots. 

You honestly sound like a spoiled brat. 

Here we have a controversial member of the game going out of his way to do a community service, and alliance leaders/gov members involved in a global helping him and forming up a legit system which most likely took a very long time to make and set up. 

Just because you scream when you don't have it your way doesn't mean the team organizing the vote is going to cater to your opinion. If you don't like it, don't participate.

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3 minutes ago, Radoje said:

You honestly sound like a spoiled brat. 

Here we have a controversial member of the game going out of his way to do a community service, and alliance leaders/gov members involved in a global helping him and forming up a legit system which most likely took a very long time to make and set up. 

Just because you scream when you don't have it your way doesn't mean the team organizing the vote is going to cater to your opinion. If you don't like it, don't participate.

 

Yes, I'm a spoilt brat for asking for transparency. Got it! 

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There were numerous objections from across the community to voting being hosted on an opaque, offsite portal with no oversight from the mods or Alex.

At least thirteen people from TKR, BK, NPO, GOB, HS, TCW, Arrgh, TGH, and TI indicated that they would prefer the voting was hosted on the PW forums, that the PW mod team oversaw the voting, or both.

The only coherent reason given for hosting them offsite was to make the winners a surprise to be revealed on a radio show. However, as cool as Orbis Weekly and Great Job are, they aren't official representatives of PW.

Now the justification has shifted to turnout. First, our complaints aren't about turnout; they're about transparency and the fact that a group players who don't represent PW in any official capacity have hijacked the awards. Second, the solution to low turnout isn't to move the awards offsite, it's to host them on politicsandwar.com. PW has two official sites, neither of which is https://pnwawards.cf/

@Alex needs to either prevent players from appointing themselves in charge of these things, maintain moderator oversight over them, and keep them hosted on an official PW site, or he needs to stop lending them official legitimacy. That means locking this subforum and allowing players to conduct their own annual awards in Orbis Central, on Orbis Weekly's Discord server, or wherever else they choose, without the imprimatur of being sanctioned by PW's staff.

Kastor saying there were a bunch of people who objected to the offsite voting who didn't post their objection in the announcement thread ^

 

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Edward, that would be cool, if it was true.

 

I was asked, and approved to host this year by Alex, who knew and read my ideas, and approved them.

 

He also approved the use of a mass message to handle it.

 

The PnW awards have always been done by the membership, not by Alex. Running to him because you’re not going to get your way isn’t going to change anything.

 

The simple point is, the community has responded more towards this way than to ANY forum poll ever. With now over 800 votes, I can safely say it’s the biggest turnout for the PnW awards ever. 

 

There’s no issue with the votes, no issue with the site, no issue with anything. 

 

Also, I find it hilarious that a second ago, the fact that this was all NPO members was irrelevant, and now that it’s imperative to mention that there are several non-NPO people who have been upset over it. 

 

We’re not moving to a forum vote. So stop asking. If NPO so desperately wants to be included, Frawley can PMme on discord and we can discuss adding him into the group to certify election results. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kastor said:

Look, I’m going to just be honest. There’s ZERO chance that we switch to the forum voting at this time.

The reason I feel comfortable doing this is because they’re multiple people from multiple alliances looking and trusting everything for the awards. It’s next to impossible to rig them and if anything happened, the members of the team would see it.

 

As for NPO not being invited to help, I didn’t ask anyone, everyone volunteered. None of your guys did, so none of you guys are included.

 

Finally, stop !@#$ing. It’s way too late, and I already said a long time ago this is what was going to be done, and in all honesty I don’t give a flying frick if random people don’t like it. This is the biggest participation ever, so obviously we’re doing something right.

Please feel free to DM me about any concerns. Or feel free to post in this thread. We value the input of the community.

The community at large > NPO. 

 

Sorry bud. :) 

Just for the record. The tone of this post is a pretty good example of why I didn't trust you to run the awards, and the fact that you have some people who volunteered to help you doesn't change a single thing about that.

You're not valuing community input when you're stacking a team with people who are either malign or naive, then claiming that they're representative of the community.

Also, it makes no sense for you guys to make a point about hosting the voting offsite when you did the nominations on the forums.

 

Edit: Everyone agrees with me. Literally every player in the game. I just hosted a vote for it, and it was unanimous. I hosted it off site, but given the fact that even you voted that you agree with me, Kastor, I expect you to address these concerns immediately.

Edited by Spaceman Thrax
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2 minutes ago, Kastor said:

I was asked, and approved to host this year by Alex, who knew and read my ideas, and approved them.

He also approved the use of a mass message to handle it.

The PnW awards have always been done by the membership, not by Alex. Running to him because you’re not going to get your way isn’t going to change anything. 

Then he's wrong to have done so. At a minimum he should have posted his approval on the forums, and any offsite voting should have been announced by him in the changelog in-game. The fact that his approval wasn't common knowledge is a problem in itself, and hosting anything official on a domain other than politicsandwar.com is still a pretty sketchy administrative practice.

2 minutes ago, Kastor said:

The simple point is, the community has responded more towards this way than to ANY forum poll ever. With now over 800 votes, I can safely say it’s the biggest turnout for the PnW awards ever.  

None of this is a coherent reason not to host the polling on politicsandwar.com, none of this is a coherent reason to make the voting less than 100% transparent as its happening, and none of this is a coherent reason to make people who aren't PW staff the face of the voting.

2 minutes ago, Kastor said:

There’s no issue with the votes, no issue with the site, no issue with anything.  

Clearly not, or there wouldn't be this many complaints and your dismissals of them would make more sense.

 

2 minutes ago, Kastor said:

Also, I find it hilarious that a second ago, the fact that this was all NPO members was irrelevant, and now that it’s imperative to mention that there are several non-NPO people who have been upset over it.  

It wouldn't matter if it was only NPO members objecting; my point was that it's not and thus your claim that the complaints are coming solely from NPO is baseless. Also, no one here said it was "irrelevant", so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

2 minutes ago, Kastor said:

We’re not moving to a forum vote. So stop asking. If NPO so desperately wants to be included, Frawley can PMme on discord and we can discuss adding him into the group to certify election results.

NPO being excluded was one objection of several, and it wasn't even the first or primary objection.

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3 minutes ago, Edward I said:

NPO being excluded was one objection of several, and it wasn't even the first or primary objection.

I have to concede that I'm ambivalent to having NPO part of it, or not. Even if a NPO'er isn't part of it, its alright, if there was a transparent system in place, one that has enough regulation mechanisms. If Alex supported this, then a post outlining this is the steps/rules and accepting it being held off-site would have been a good start. 

At the end of the day, while I'm grateful individuals in the community want to hold community awards, I'd like to see it done here or have it not particularly left to the devices of the players ourselves (myself included :P  I'm terrible at work! ;) ).

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What if we had a poll for where the poll should be hosted? 

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I hope we do it this way every year, because senseless drama about senseless drama polls are a great thing.

 

And FYI, I voted for myself in all applicable categories. Vote Inst for Most Hated Poster, Worst Player, and Worst Poster!

Edited by Inst
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4 hours ago, Pestilence said:

In fact we have received around 2/3 times more submissions than any other year, in less than a week.  😛

This isn't positive from my point of view, it means that 2/3 of the votes are from players that don't know the game and the community enough to vote and will likely vote for their alliance/friends/the only name they know, so if before was 70% popularity contest and 30% sensate opinion, now it is 100% popularity contest that in some cases it's coincidentally also the sensate opinion

It's also true that it's impossible to reach 100% sensate opinion but we can try to get close to that, and I still think a forum post with a motivation for every choice is the best way

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2 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

Yeah just ignore the bunch of other folks who posted in that thread. It really isn't about which AA I come from, as much as been straight with you about the issues that you refused to engage with at any point. But good job ignoring anyone else who had issues with it, and bring it down to AAs. 

Considering every complaint is from an NPO member...
Yeah, seems like an alliance thing.

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5 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Considering every complaint is from an NPO member...
Yeah, seems like an alliance thing.

Not really:

2 hours ago, Edward I said:

There were numerous objections from across the community to voting being hosted on an opaque, offsite portal with no oversight from the mods or Alex.

At least thirteen people from TKR, BK, NPO, GOB, HS, TCW, Arrgh, TGH, and TI indicated that they would prefer the voting was hosted on the PW forums, that the PW mod team oversaw the voting, or both.

The only coherent reason given for hosting them offsite was to make the winners a surprise to be revealed on a radio show. However, as cool as Orbis Weekly and Great Job are, they aren't official representatives of PW.

Now the justification has shifted to turnout. First, our complaints aren't about turnout; they're about transparency and the fact that a group players who don't represent PW in any official capacity have hijacked the awards. Second, the solution to low turnout isn't to move the awards offsite, it's to host them on politicsandwar.com. PW has two official sites, neither of which is https://pnwawards.cf/

@Alex needs to either prevent players from appointing themselves in charge of these things, maintain moderator oversight over them, and keep them hosted on an official PW site, or he needs to stop lending them official legitimacy. That means locking this subforum and allowing players to conduct their own annual awards in Orbis Central, on Orbis Weekly's Discord server, or wherever else they choose, without the imprimatur of being sanctioned by PW's staff.

Kastor saying there were a bunch of people who objected to the offsite voting who didn't post their objection in the announcement thread ^

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Edward I said:

Not really:

 

Those aren't relevant, but nice try though.

I don't see those people complaining here. I see them doing so months ago. Right here, right now, only NPO members still have a problem. Thrax's problem is that its run by Kastor and nothing more, so he doesn't even count.

Sit your ass down and call in the other roqbots, like always happens. :D

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2 hours ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Just for the record. The tone of this post is a pretty good example of why I didn't trust you to run the awards, and the fact that you have some people who volunteered to help you doesn't change a single thing about that.

You're not valuing community input when you're stacking a team with people who are either malign or naive, then claiming that they're representative of the community.

Also, it makes no sense for you guys to make a point about hosting the voting offsite when you did the nominations on the forums.

 

Edit: Everyone agrees with me. Literally every player in the game. I just hosted a vote for it, and it was unanimous. I hosted it off site, but given the fact that even you voted that you agree with me, Kastor, I expect you to address these concerns immediately.

Yes, because changing the voting method halfway through the vote seems fair. Getting rid of the votes for the people who either don’t have forum accounts or can’t get them also seems fair. 

 

#Sarcasm

51 minutes ago, Micchan said:

This isn't positive from my point of view, it means that 2/3 of the votes are from players that don't know the game and the community enough to vote and will likely vote for their alliance/friends/the only name they know, so if before was 70% popularity contest and 30% sensate opinion, now it is 100% popularity contest that in some cases it's coincidentally also the sensate opinion

It's also true that it's impossible to reach 100% sensate opinion but we can try to get close to that, and I still think a forum post with a motivation for every choice is the best way

“We should only allow those who are 100% informed vote- because....Democracy?”

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You know, @NPO, if you guys are going to complain about this so much, why not just hold another vote with the same nominations as on the forums?

TBH, these polls ARE popularity contests and are of little use other than entertainment value. The fact that the polls are now anonymous with minimal oversight doesn't disguise the fact that these polls are simply jokes no matter who does it.

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