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Sir Scarfalot
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I realize there is controversy over Sheepy telling people about the bounty. What I don't get though is why you have been consistently down playing the blatant racist/OOC attack made with that bounty.

Could you explain? 

Edited by Smith
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19 minutes ago, Smith said:

I realize there is controversy over Sheepy telling people about the bounty. What I don't get though is why you have been consistently down playing the blatant racist/OOC attack made with that bounty.

Could you explain? 

Some people feign anger to gain a upper hand by playing with other's emotions.

While the intended action itself wasn't right, but you can clearly see how the individual used that information for personal gain and even was disappointed after hearing the offender fessed up.  Isn't the whole point to have people fess up to their "crime" and be "apologetic"?  Remember the Arkiri moment?  He never repeated it afterwards, yet he was still hunted down despite being literally the only player who publicly apologized for such actions in the history of this game.  Their plan was to use it to apply a guilty by association on everybody, even when they had no knowledge of it.  Your own leadership was aware of this before the war.

Again, while the statement was wrong, the "offended parties" didn't look for an apology - even after knowing the player in question was punished - she looked to take full advantage of it for her own gain, even to the point of manipulating the Admin of the game for it.  That is why I presume people down play it.

Multiple "wrongs" don't make a "right".

Edited by Buorhann
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30 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Some people feign anger to gain a upper hand by playing with other's emotions.

While the intended action itself wasn't right, but you can clearly see how the individual used that information for personal gain and even was disappointed after hearing the offender fessed up.  Isn't the whole point to have people fess up to their "crime" and be "apologetic"?  Remember the Arkiri moment?  He never repeated it afterwards, yet he was still hunted down despite being literally the only player who publicly apologized for such actions in the history of this game.  Their plan was to use it to apply a guilty by association on everybody, even when they had no knowledge of it.  Your own leadership was aware of this before the war.

Again, while the statement was wrong, the "offended parties" didn't look for an apology - even after knowing the player in question was punished - she looked to take full advantage of it for her own gain, even to the point of manipulating the Admin of the game for it.  That is why I presume people down play it.

Multiple "wrongs" don't make a "right".

Queen M not expecting an apology from someone who sent her a racist comment in secret is not unreasonable. And it doesnt explain why Scarf would downplay it or act like it was some sort of coincidence that it turned out to be a white nationalist metaphor like Scarf seems to be implying. 

Edited by Smith
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18 minutes ago, Smith said:

Queen M not expecting an apology from someone who sent her a racist comment in secret is not unreasonable. And it doesnt explain why Scarf would downplay it or act like it was some sort of coincidence that it turned out to be a white nationalist metaphor like Scarf seems to be implying. 

I don't see you going after Sphinx for posting up the Wal-mart image, making fun of it as well?

As for the initial part of your statement, your leadership attempted to push hard for an apology from both me and Thalmor in relation to it.  Although that isn't the real substance of your argument here, I just wanted to point that out.

 

And sorry, just to clarify, the offended party wasn't looking for a direct apology in private before the war.  I realized I didn't state that when I intended to in the first reply.

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2 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

I don't see you going after Sphinx for posting up the Wal-mart image, making fun of it as well?

As for the initial part of your statement, your leadership attempted to push hard for an apology from both me and Thalmor in relation to it.  Although that isn't the real substance of your argument here, I just wanted to point that out.

Scarf made multiple posts and I didn't even ask about it until he made a thread dedicated to it. This is why I am asking him

 

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3 hours ago, Smith said:

I realize there is controversy over Sheepy telling people about the bounty. What I don't get though is why you have been consistently down playing the blatant racist/OOC attack made with that bounty.

Could you explain? 

See, it took me less than a minute to make the post after seeing Shadow's combat report, and a couple of minutes to decide where to post it, but I hovered over the 'submit topic' button for almost half an hour deciding if I should post it at all. I knew, I knew there would be people that didn't understand, and it's an incredibly difficult concept to explain to those that don't already get it. But, since you're being so restrained and polite, I'll do my best for you.

You see, the thing is that you're so hung up on the symptoms, and looking for something easy to blame, that you're forgetting to consider the causes or the solutions. Now, I want to make it abundantly clear that I do not support nor condone Nazism nor any similar form of hatred and intolerance, and my posts are not in any way meant to mock or make light of the very real struggles and the very real culture of hate that all too many people suffer under. Nor are my posts meant to mock @Django Jane as a person.

Rather, what my posts are meant to do is to use humor to defuse the situation and attempt to de-escalate the rhetoric so that things can become less toxic, as opposed to turning into a self-sustaining and accelerating cycle of negativity. I make light of your responses to Thalmor's anonymous, (though admittedly racially-charged) OOC attack, because witch hunts and responding to personal attacks with more, harsher, and less anonymous personal attacks does not address the cause of the problem. More importantly, your responses would create an environment of excessive and unfun guardedness at best, and outright OOC hostility towards anyone and everyone at the worst. Your actions are not solutions, they're just adding another set of problems into the environment, and encouraging the original problem on top of that.

Now, you might say, how dare I claim that someone being sensitive encouraged a racially-charged OOC attack. Well, let me explain; you have to realize that Thalmor made his choice based on who he knew would be the target that would create the most drama. I'm 100% certain that while the bounty was racially-charged, it was not racially-motivated. It was very obviously troll-Queen-M motivated. As far as I'm aware, trolls do this kind of isolated jack-assery because they're bored, or because they have a grudge, or they want attention, and they feel safe and secure from consequences due to anonymity.

It needs to be said that this does not make it acceptable, it does not make it funny, and it does not make a fun environment for anyone, but taking trolling seriously gives the troll exactly what the troll wanted in the first place: drama, attention, notoriety. When these things are taken seriously, the trolls win. And when this happens, it shows the troll and others of a similar mindset who to target and how to target them for maximum drama and triggering. It therefore shouldn't be surprising that they continue such successful, if distasteful behaviors. That's what I mean by 'encouraging the original problem'.

Serious hate is a serious issue, and repeated harassment is something that must be acted against decisively and promptly, but this was neither of those things. This was a single incident, and as Alex's logs show Queen M was in fact surprised by Thalmor's involvement, so this wasn't part of a repeated set of attacks from Thalmor against Queen M at all.

So what's the solution? Obviously we can't sit idly by and not set boundaries of good behavior. Well, on top of using the official channels of a moderation strike and/or blocking communication with the harasser, we can use social pressure. In this case, I have chosen to use humor.

You might not have picked up on it, but my original post here actually mocks both your over-zealous and serious response to Thalmor's tasteless joke and the joke itself, and it furthermore mocks the Nazi culture of hate and their ridiculous symbol on top of all that. Humor can and should be a positive and constructive force; when used responsibly it can soothe anger and calm hostilities, it can discourage without being harsh, and it can cheer without being patronizing. It is far from easy, and no-one is perfect, but it may well be the best solution we have against our baser tendencies and against the evils of our time.

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
emphasis on the last paragraph
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I find it intensely depressing and frankly pathetic that people whining and shrieking about jokes seem completely and utterly uneducated and ignorant of what the purpose of humor actually is. 

It's not to make fart jokes for kids in some shitty animated movie. Jokes are often made about dark, uncomfortable, horrible things for a goddamned reason. It is literally required for the survival of a coherent social structure and a lack of it would simply turn everyone into emotionless drones, too afraid or too incapable to feel anything because so much of the world is just awful and has no redeeming factor it.

Humor makes light of terrible things as a method of acceptance and understanding. Jokes about the Holocaust are essential not because the Holocaust was funny but because the jokes make it easier for a sapient, sentient monkey brain to accept and understand that something like that could even happen, and accept it in such a way that does not crush it's puny mind under a weight of infinite angst and misery at the darkness around every corner.

Stop being joke Nazis, and yes, Joke Nazis is the proper term. What Thalmor did was stupid, but this, this thread. This is a joke. Un-twist your pearly-pink panties from out your anus, and move on. Jokes and humor should not be subject to political correctness nor should they ever be, it would literally be one of the worst things carrying a long-term effect in human society. 

Also, take a goddamn psychology class if you're this clueless about the subject. 

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Nice to know the community supports harassing a black person with nazi propaganda.  And that the real crime is not that someone is anonymously making harassing statements to a person, it's that a bunch of people lost a video game war because of it.  Are we living in Banana Land?  Seriously what the hell is wrong with you people?

 

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15 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

See, it took me less than a minute to make the post after seeing Shadow's combat report, and a couple of minutes to decide where to post it, but I hovered over the 'submit topic' button for almost half an hour deciding if I should post it at all. I knew, I knew there would be people that didn't understand, and it's an incredibly difficult concept to explain to those that don't already get it. But, since you're being so restrained and polite, I'll do my best for you.

You see, the thing is that you're so hung up on the symptoms, and looking for something easy to blame, that you're forgetting to consider the causes or the solutions. Now, I want to make it abundantly clear that I do not support nor condone Nazism nor any similar form of hatred and intolerance, and my posts are not in any way meant to mock or make light of the very real struggles and the very real culture of hate that all too many people suffer under. Nor are my posts meant to mock @Django Jane as a person.

Rather, what my posts are meant to do is to use humor to defuse the situation and attempt to de-escalate the rhetoric so that things can become less toxic, as opposed to turning into a self-sustaining and accelerating cycle of negativity. I make light of your responses to Thalmor's anonymous, (though admittedly racially-charged) OOC attack, because witch hunts and responding to personal attacks with more, harsher, and less anonymous personal attacks does not address the cause of the problem. More importantly, your responses would create an environment of excessive and unfun guardedness at best, and outright OOC hostility towards anyone and everyone at the worst. Your actions are not solutions, they're just adding another set of problems into the environment, and encouraging the original problem on top of that.

Now, you might say, how dare I claim that someone being sensitive encouraged a racially-charged OOC attack. Well, let me explain; you have to realize that Thalmor made his choice based on who he knew would be the target that would create the most drama. I'm 100% certain that while the bounty was racially-charged, it was not racially-motivated. It was very obviously troll-Queen-M motivated. As far as I'm aware, trolls do this kind of isolated jack-assery because they're bored, or because they have a grudge, or they want attention, and they feel safe and secure from consequences due to anonymity.

It needs to be said that this does not make it acceptable, it does not make it funny, and it does not make a fun environment for anyone, but taking trolling seriously gives the troll exactly what the troll wanted in the first place: drama, attention, notoriety. When these things are taken seriously, the trolls win. And when this happens, it shows the troll and others of a similar mindset who to target and how to target them for maximum drama and triggering. It therefore shouldn't be surprising that they continue such successful, if distasteful behaviors. That's what I mean by 'encouraging the original problem'.

Serious hate is a serious issue, and repeated harassment is something that must be acted against decisively and promptly, but this was neither of those things. This was a single incident, and as Alex's logs show Queen M was in fact surprised by Thalmor's involvement, so this wasn't part of a repeated set of attacks from Thalmor against Queen M at all.

So what's the solution? Obviously we can't sit idly by and not set boundaries of good behavior. Well, on top of using the official channels of a moderation strike and/or blocking communication with the harasser, we can use social pressure. In this case, I have chosen to use humor.

You might not have picked up on it, but my original post here actually mocks both your over-zealous and serious response to Thalmor's tasteless joke and the joke itself, and it furthermore mocks the Nazi culture of hate and their ridiculous symbol on top of all that. Humor can and should be a positive and constructive force; when used responsibly it can soothe anger and calm hostilities, it can discourage without being harsh, and it can cheer without being patronizing. It is far from easy, and no-one is perfect, but it may well be the best solution we have against our baser tendencies and against the evils of our time.

 I appreciate that your intentions are trying to defuse things, but I disagree that it will accomplish that.

Making jokes like this (especially as someone with a vested FA interest  to downplay the actions, though I am not saying that is why you are doing it) normalizes the behavior and makes it look like what Thalmor did is not a big deal. Your comments in particular have implied that the number was just a coincidence by comparing it to randomly generated numbers and people who aren't as familiar with the situation might think that.

This way of joking is one-sided in who it affects as it only makes it look like the recipient of the message shouldn't be upset because hey, it might as well be a coincidence right? Meanwhile, it makes the person who sent it look less culpable for their actions which benefits them. 

Because of that it will not deescalate the situation.

 

12 hours ago, Lairah said:

I find it intensely depressing and frankly pathetic that people whining and shrieking about jokes seem completely and utterly uneducated and ignorant of what the purpose of humor actually is. 

It's not to make fart jokes for kids in some shitty animated movie. Jokes are often made about dark, uncomfortable, horrible things for a goddamned reason. It is literally required for the survival of a coherent social structure and a lack of it would simply turn everyone into emotionless drones, too afraid or too incapable to feel anything because so much of the world is just awful and has no redeeming factor it.

Humor makes light of terrible things as a method of acceptance and understanding. Jokes about the Holocaust are essential not because the Holocaust was funny but because the jokes make it easier for a sapient, sentient monkey brain to accept and understand that something like that could even happen, and accept it in such a way that does not crush it's puny mind under a weight of infinite angst and misery at the darkness around every corner.

Stop being joke Nazis, and yes, Joke Nazis is the proper term. What Thalmor did was stupid, but this, this thread. This is a joke. Un-twist your pearly-pink panties from out your anus, and move on. Jokes and humor should not be subject to political correctness nor should they ever be, it would literally be one of the worst things carrying a long-term effect in human society. 

Also, take a goddamn psychology class if you're this clueless about the subject. 

 

"Toughen up you snowflake. Also, I downvote anyone I disagree with because I am incapable of understand irony."

Edited by Smith

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> Your own leadership was aware of this before the war.

No, we weren't. This was literally stated weeks ago when Sketchy and I began talking as well, so you were aware of this and stating otherwise here is a blatant falsehood. We did not know until well after KT/TGH knew about it, actually. As per my quote that you so enjoy using out-of-context, Queenie wasn't telling people about it and did not do so until it became known to her that Thalmor was telling people.

So, I've said it before and I'll say it again. TKR's reason for this war was very clearly outlined in this post from the beginning.  We have never once changed our reasoning. TRF was invited by TCW per their treaty and they accepted the offer. I don't pretend to fully comprehend the whole history between TRF/KT(/TGH?) and there may be a litany of offenses that helped decide their reason for accepting but they ultimately are only in this war because they were invited. Trying to make it out like TKR supports OOC/had some ridiculous "vengeance pact" is both false and not in your favor. We've made it very clear that our reason for holding up the recent set of terms had everything to do with you all trying to devalue TRF's contribution to our coalition and nothing more.

 

> Alex's logs show Queen M was in fact surprised by Thalmor's involvement

Yes, they do but, from my understanding, not because of a lack of history but because she thought they had put that chapter behind them and then he decided to revive it.

 

> your leadership attempted to push hard for an apology from both me and Thalmor in relation to it.

We pushed hard for an apology from you in regards to Thalmor's bounty on Queen M? Hardly. The first round of talks including an apology for the bounty from Thalmor (and only Thalmor), who effectively turned their OOC drama IC because of his bounty, an argument your side essentially agreed with. Regardless, these apologies were the first thing dropped and haven't been a part of talks for two, nearly three, weeks now, I believe, so I find it rather amusing that you're only bringing all this up now.

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8 hours ago, Smith said:

-snip-

Thing is, the moderation strike was already placed. The behavior wasn't tolerated, it isn't tolerated, it shouldn't be tolerated, and that's been made abundantly clear. Therefore, as we are not moderators nor police nor lawyers, it is as I have described at some length irresponsible and counterproductive to extend that intolerance ourselves unofficially into the degree of further harassment. Like I said, of course we shouldn't tolerate it, but we shouldn't get hung up on it.

I've been using italics too much recently help

8 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Nice to know the community supports harassing a black person with nazi propaganda.  And that the real crime is not that someone is anonymously making harassing statements to a person, it's that a bunch of people lost a video game war because of it.  Are we living in Banana Land?  Seriously what the hell is wrong with you people?

Toughen up you snowflake. Also I downvote anyone I disagree with because that's what the red button is for.

Did you even READ my post?!

6 hours ago, Nizam Adrienne said:

-snop-

You do realize you're making official FA posts in the shitposting section right? that's Alliance Affairs material

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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On 8/9/2018 at 5:31 PM, Sir Scarfalot said:

Thing is, the moderation strike was already placed. The behavior wasn't tolerated, it isn't tolerated, it shouldn't be tolerated, and that's been made abundantly clear. Therefore, as we are not moderators nor police nor lawyers, it is as I have described at some length irresponsible and counterproductive to extend that intolerance ourselves unofficially into the degree of further harassment. Like I said, of course we shouldn't tolerate it, but we shouldn't get hung up on it.

I've been using italics too much recently help

This doesn't address any of my points for why it won't deescalate the situation or how it portrays it as an accident. The fact that we aren't the admins or moderators is irrelevant when it comes to you deciding to make a new thread about it. It's not "harassment" to not have threads downplaying what happened which is what we're talking about here.

Edited by Smith

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