Plot Und Panzer

[MonkeyDLegend]

7 hours ago, Avien said:

 

Let it be known, under our glorious military banner of the Afrika Korps, that this coalition between nations comes into fruition! The Don, Kriegsherr of the Afrika Korps, has prepared for this time. Our Panzers look forward to stain their steel with blood, our Luftwaffe polished their aircraft and have prepared to rain hell down upon the insurgents.

 

Kriegsherr: Don

?

Oberst of Foreign Affairs: Velium

Oberst of the Armed Forces : Bigboom

Oberst of Internal Affairs : Skae

Oberst of Economic Affairs : Asphodel

 

Protected by The Syndicate

 

 

Welcome to orbis and gratz with the treaty, hope to see you guy's and gal's    around

[Prefonteen]

2 hours ago, durmij said:

So, that section was there to highlight the differences in our fallacies. His entire argument hinges on him being smarter than everyone else and the only adult, where as I laid out arguments then called him a shitty player. There is a huge functional difference there.

You mean that he's somewhat awkwardly defending himself from a deliberate ad hominem intended to disqualify and derail his initial on-topic argument? The response was off but it was the result of a straight personal attack. Can't really fault that too much imo.

32 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

When I first saw the alliance, I knew reactions like this would happen, but if @Prefonteen says it was looked into ahead of time by Alex's rules, it's alright with me.

We, @Prefontaine @Prefonteen, Prefontoon, Prefontar, Prefontan, and all the other P's approve of this message.

[Velium]

4 hours ago, durmij said:

The game has had an ongoing, near year long struggle with people filling up discords and the forums alike with toxic garbage and using stuff like this to skirt the line and build a space for the promotion of their discriminatory views. Trying to push forth ideas like the inherent inferiority of racial minorities and women. You not being aware of this because you failed to pay attention is not the fault of the rest of us, and we don't have to entertain your ignorance.

Saying nothing bad will happen is not only an improvable absolute, but shows that you are blissfully unaware of the well documented, real world consequences that others have to bear because of cultural battles like this. Diminishing concerns down to feels and age shows that you don't have the skill set need to make a real argument, nor are you approaching this in good faith.

Ok, I’m a bit late to this whole discussion, I’m the FA leader of The Afrika Korps, and i find this whole issue hilarious and not surprising at all. I talked with the founders of this alliance about this happening a long time before we founded. We explicitly had the idea to just use the German tactics and war machines as a theme, as we were not interested in the Nazi ideology at all (btw Rommel, the guy who led the Afrika Korps, was not in with the Nazi ideology and was actually suspected of trying to assassinate hitler). Also, that was only a part of our theme, since the other half was anime. Finally, we never even mentioned the Nazi ideology as our theme, so there's no way someone would feel hurt by this new alliance, except if they simply felt discriminated by seeing German tanks and a name. I am not saying that there's not any toxic alliances or ideas in the PnW community, but this is clearly not the case.

[Buorhann]

>German tactics

>In PnW

Explain?

 

(Also your Rommel point is weak)

Edited June 7, 2018 by Buorhann

[MonkeyDLegend]

12 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

We, @Prefontaine @Prefonteen, Prefontoon, Prefontar, Prefontan, and all the other P's approve of this message.

Multies confirmed

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by MonkeyDLegend

[Prefonteen]

1 minute ago, Buorhann said:

>German tactics

>In PnW

Explain?

 

(Also your Rommel point is weak)

blitzkrieg is an in-game mechanic, you know.

[Velium]

1 minute ago, Buorhann said:

>German tactics

>In PnW

Explain?

 

(Also your Rommel point is weak)

The rommel point was just a detail, and about the german tactics, it's part of the theme rather than an actual idea to implement in the alliance

[durmij]

4 hours ago, Skae said:

You know what @durmij 

Do you know what the Revolutionary Front is? It's the communist revolution. The communist revolutions in Russia and China killed over 100 million people! Mass slaughter! 

I think you may want to review your morales. That's not good.

 

It's always a bad day when I have to defend the goddamn USSR but...
 

2 hours ago, Prefonteen said:

You mean that he's somewhat awkwardly defending himself from a deliberate ad hominem intended to disqualify and derail his initial on-topic argument? The response was off but it was the result of a straight personal attack. Can't really fault that too much imo.

 

He started out with the ad hom, claiming he was defending himself is twisting of the timeline beyond absurd. His points have been 1. I'm an adult and you're children. 2. I deem that this will not have any substantial effects. 3. You don't understand.

He's done literal nothing to substantiate anything. His argumentation is piss poor, and if he wasn't on the side of T$'s protectorate you wouldn't be in this thread.

 

2 hours ago, Velium said:

Ok, I’m a bit late to this whole discussion, I’m the FA leader of The Afrika Korps, and i find this whole issue hilarious and not surprising at all. I talked with the founders of this alliance about this happening a long time before we founded. We explicitly had the idea to just use the German tactics and war machines as a theme, as we were not interested in the Nazi ideology at all (btw Rommel, the guy who led the Afrika Korps, was not in with the Nazi ideology and was actually suspected of trying to assassinate hitler). Also, that was only a part of our theme, since the other half was anime. Finally, we never even mentioned the Nazi ideology as our theme, so there's no way someone would feel hurt by this new alliance, except if they simply felt discriminated by seeing German tanks and a name. I am not saying that there's not any toxic alliances or ideas in the PnW community, but this is clearly not the case.

The Rommel thing is a complete non starter. Rommel was scapegoated for the failure to defend France. And his personal investment is irrelevant. He was intrusmental in Nazi military successes which enabled the holocaust. Historical revisionism to try and separate the military from the regime is not possible, as the two are inexorably intertwined.

And you can't just magically declare the Afrika Korps reenvisioned. Symbols have meanings, and histories. It's impossible to control reactions to these symbols and extremely easy for the outcomes of their use to be predicted. You can't just declare that because your Nazi adjacent symbol isn't explicitly referencing Nazism, that people need to accept your distinction.

[Sir Scarfalot]

2 hours ago, Prefonteen said:

blitzkrieg is an in-game mechanic, you know.

And a terrible, ineffective one, I hope this alliance knows better.

[Kriegskoenig]

3 hours ago, Velium said:

>>*snip*
(btw Rommel, the guy who led the Afrika Korps, was not in with the Nazi ideology and was actually suspected of trying to assassinate Hitler). Also, that was only a part of our theme, since the other half was anime. Finally, we never even mentioned the Nazi ideology as our theme, so there's no way someone would feel hurt by this new alliance, except if they simply felt discriminated by seeing German tanks and a name. I am not saying that there's not any toxic alliances or ideas in the PnW community, but this is clearly not the case.

Let's not slide into Germanophobia or German collective guilt simply because we cannot comprehend more than a simplistic view of human nature and the Second World War.  There were criminals, rapists and murderers on both sides.  War is ugly, and the chivalrous version in which no surrendering soldier is executed really barely exists.  "War crimes" are commonplace in a close war.  Genocide is much more rare.

 

That being said, we should examine Erwin Rommel on his merits, and by his actions as a man of the time, rather than through the lens of all-knowing hindsight and anti-Nazi fervor.  In so doing, we should remember that much of the US and European population ALSO admired Hitler in the early years, before knowing what he would do, that few believed that the camps were to be used for killing, and that until the first American troops arrived at the camps, we had no concept of how incomprehensibly horrible the hidden evils were.

Of war crimes, Rommel was not guilty.  He is known to have insisted on fair and honorable treatment of captured enemies.  Rommel was neither a member of the Nazi party nor an adherent to it, rejecting some of its core philosophies and finding himself at extreme odds with the core of the party.  Of greed, egotism, and hubris, Rommel was thoroughly guilty.  He supported Hitler, a man whom he deeply appreciated for his own career advancement, but then conspired to kill the man when he thought Hitler's policies would lead to disastrous defeat. Rommel was an excellent field general, but, I suspect, not a man whom you would wish to have as a friend.  His ambition, lust for glory, and love of militarism, chivalry and aristocracy led him into a number of poor decisions and, in the end, possibly to his death.  It is unknown whether Rommel knew he was suggested as the replacement leader of Germany after Hitler's assassination in the 20 July plot, but had he known, it is likely he would more readily have agreed to the plot.  It is known that it took him some time to agree to the plot, and that he did it in the belief that it was better for Germany to remove Hitler.  Rommel apparently wanted Hitler brought to trial, but recognized the impossibility of arresting the (then) very popular leader with his very tight security.  Rommel is known to hate despised the SS and the SA, and to have intervened against the SA after some of their attacks on Jews.  However, it is likely that he was motivated rather by a preference for order and legal means of action than hatred for anti-semitism.  It is likely that Rommel knew something, at least, of the SS-guided "Final Solution" and the death camps, though it is impossible to say how much he knew of what happened in the camps.

It speaks in favor of Rommel that he was hated by the SS and the core of the Nazi party, but the reasons are likely to have been rivalry for Hitler's favor rather than any direct opposition by Rommel to their treatment of the Jewish population.  Rommel was, by most accounts, a good general and a decent man, although he certainly had faults.  If he ignored whatever he knew of the plight of Europe's Jewish population in favor of the Nazi party's glorification of militaristic tradition and the image of chivalry, I would not be surprised.  It is telling that his inspiration for joining the 20 July plot was allegedly to save Germany from Hitler's reckless war decisions, rather than personal moral objections to any policies.  Who knows what Rommel's end would have been had he not been arrested and forced into suicide.  He would likely have escaped Nuremberg alive, but no doubt his reputation would have been irrevocably damaged.  He benefits from the doubt today, as a man cannot be proved to have known of the destruction of Europe's Jewish population, and a man who died as a result of his attempt to end Hitler.

I would not call him a German hero, but neither would I call him a true Nazi.  He is certainly no worse than many of the other figures of history who ignored evils when it suited their ambitions.  If that makes him and his celebrated military command impossible to use as a theme, we must also censure and erase all reference to Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Rodrigo Duterte, Winston Churchill, FDR, Woodrow Wilson, and many others.

There are certainly toxic players and ideas in PnW.  One need only explore Discord to find them.  But the difference between a theme reflecting one of the most recognizable elite fighting units of WWII, and overtly voicing support for genocide and extermination of entire people-groups, is vast indeed.  I hope we have not become so simplistic and foolish as to be unable to recognize the brilliance of men such as Adolf Galland, an excellent pilot and chivalrous man who nonetheless killed other men in service of an expansionary evil empire.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Kriegskoenig

[Placentica]

Is this the topic that contains all the whiny SJW's from TKR and TRF?

[durmij]

Just now, Placentica said:

Is this the topic that contains all the whiny SJW's from TKR and TRF?

He screamed from permanent vacation mode at a game he will never affect again.

[Placentica]

11 minutes ago, durmij said:

He screamed from permanent vacation mode at a game he will never affect again.

Now TRF on the other hand, has impacted the game numerous times.  So many I can't even remember.  So crucial the very fabric of PW.

[ArcKnox]

1 minute ago, Placentica said:

Now TRF on the other hand, has impacted the game numerous times.  So many I can't even remember.  So crucial the very fabric of PW.

Padding numbers for TKR is very important work, I assure you.

[Kriegskoenig]

1 minute ago, durmij said:

He screamed from permanent vacation mode at a game he will never affect again.

Oh, @durmij don't play into childishness.  Your own behaviors and symbolism appear to mark you as a either a selective apologist for genocide and political purges, or someone who fails to recognize a double standard.  "Fine for me, but not for thee," is hardly an appropriate stance to take on mass murder.  

The flag attached to your profile here bears the symbols of the regime that ordered the Red Terror, Lenin's Hanging Order, the anti-Cossack genocide, the Great Purge, the Katyn and Khatyn massacres, and the mass deportations of ethnic minorities.  Either you are, by your own statements, supporting these actions, or you are recognizing something you admire in the regime and using the symbolism for that purpose.  You're merely fortunate that by through a twist of history, thorough western hypocrisy, and cynical American complicity in covering up Soviet crimes and genocides, the symbol is not regarded as being as evil as a swastika: arguably, it should be.

[durmij]

5 minutes ago, Placentica said:

Now TRF on the other hand, has impacted the game numerous times.  So many I can't even remember.  So crucial the very fabric of PW.

He screamed from permanent vacation mode at a game he will never affect again.

[durmij]

32 minutes ago, Kriegskoenig said:

Oh, @durmij don't play into childishness.  Your own behaviors and symbolism appear to mark you as a either a selective apologist for genocide and political purges, or someone who fails to recognize a double standard.  "Fine for me, but not for thee," is hardly an appropriate stance to take on mass murder.  

The flag attached to your profile here bears the symbols of the regime that ordered the Red Terror, Lenin's Hanging Order, the anti-Cossack genocide, the Great Purge, the Katyn and Khatyn massacres, and the mass deportations of ethnic minorities.  Either you are, by your own statements, supporting these actions, or you are recognizing something you admire in the regime and using the symbolism for that purpose.  You're merely fortunate that by through a twist of history, thorough western hypocrisy, and cynical American complicity in covering up Soviet crimes and genocides, the symbol is not regarded as being as evil as a swastika: arguably, it should be.

I've denounced the Soviet Union multiple times in multiple threads on the behest of multiple people. Don't presume to put words in my mouth. I understand the fundamental difference between the Nazis crimes against those due to inborn traits and the unmitigated shit show that was Stalin, but believe me when I say, frick em both. But in no way shape or form are they one the same plane. Besides, couldn't all of your arguments separating Rommel from the Nazi Regime apply to basically any war figure? Maybe I'm honoring some Soviet General  who had nothing to do with the Gulags and Holodomor and you're being too sensitive.

Plus I was looking for the TRF forum pip and got lost, just using this as a temporary until I find it.

Edit: It was still listed under Stratagem. Derp

Edited June 8, 2018 by durmij
I am become error

[Settra]

Whataboutism.

[durmij]

5 minutes ago, Settra said:

Whataboutism.

Yes, you got that one right, Kriegs post was an example of Whataboutism. Good boy, have this.

Edit: Alright this one was a little over the edge, I apologize.

Edited June 8, 2018 by durmij
That's too much man

[Settra]

And right back on top of that perch.

[ArcKnox]

Don't you dare take that cookie, a Ukrainian family starved for that cookie!

[Kriegskoenig]

11 minutes ago, durmij said:

I've denounced the Soviet Union multiple times in multiple threads on the behest of multiple people. Don't presume to put words in my mouth. I understand the fundamental difference between the Nazis crimes against those due to inborn traits and the unmitigated shit show that was Stalin, but believe me when I say, frick em both. But in no way shape or form are they one the same plane. Besides, couldn't all of your arguments separating Rommel from the Nazi Regime apply to basically any war figure? Maybe I'm honoring some Soviet General  who had nothing to do with the Gulags and Holodomor and you're being too sensitive.

Plus I was looking for the TRF forum pip and got lost, just using this as a temporary until I find it.

Excellent.  I've not presumed to put words in your mouth, thus the excess of "maybes" and "ors" in what I said.

Crimes by Nazis against those who were born Jewish, crimes by soviets against those born Cossack or Polish.  Same-Same.

Not on the same plane?  Seriously? In no way, shape, or form?  That's quite a statement.  Quite a reach.  Quite an OVERreach, tbh.  I'd like to see it defended rationally.

And yes, my points re: Rommel apply equally to the many Soviet officers who were brilliant, career-motivated, and overlooked serious problems with the regime in their own interest. (FYI, I admire a number of Soviet military figures, despite the evils of their regime.)

But I'm not the one suggesting your symbolism is deeply inappropriate and you should be censured or banned for using it, am I?

That'd have been you, speaking about the symbolism of the Afrika Corps.  I could not have painted a better picture of double standards had I spent several hours trying to find one.

Thank you.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Kriegskoenig
Too perfect.

[durmij]

2 minutes ago, Kriegskoenig said:

Excellent.  I've not presumed to put words in your mouth, thus the excess of "maybes" and "ors" in what I said.

Crimes by Nazis against those who were born Jewish, crimes by soviets against those born Cossack or Polish.  Same-Same.

Not on the same plane?  Seriously? In now way, shape, or form?  That's quite a statement.  Quite a reach.  Quite an OVERreach, tbh.  I'd like to see it defended rationally.

And yes, my points re: Rommel apply equally to the many Soviet officers who were brilliant, career-motivated, and overlooked serious problems with the regime in their own interest. 

But I'm not the one suggesting your symbolism is deeply inappropriate and you should be censured or banned for using it, am I?

That'd have been you, speaking about the symbolism of the Afrika Corps.  I could not have painted a better picture of double standards had I spent several hours trying to find one.

Thank you.

The crimes of the USSR where not carried out from a basis of being against any group based on inborn traits. It was the failings and prejudices of the men who wielded power that made the crimes fall into those lines. The base ideology of Marxism (I'm far from a Marxist or Marx apologist btw), was international and panracial. The ideology of Nazism is based on discrimination of inborn traits like gender, race and sexuality. There is no redeeming it because there is no wiggle room. While I think that people who wave Soviet Flags unironically in the first world and somewhere between foolish and dickish, I can not react in the same way to people waving Nazi affiliated stuff because of that important distinction.

And this will be the impasse that we will never cross. You will continue to point the crimes of Stalin, I will continue to point to the basic premises of the ideologies at play.

Worth noting that Sheepy has in fact cleared this so I suppose the whole thread was nothing but the rehashing of this old argument.

[Zei-Sakura Alsainn]

6 hours ago, Velium said:

Ok, I’m a bit late to this whole discussion, I’m the FA leader of The Afrika Korps, and i find this whole issue hilarious and not surprising at all. I talked with the founders of this alliance about this happening a long time before we founded. We explicitly had the idea to just use the German tactics and war machines as a theme, as we were not interested in the Nazi ideology at all (btw Rommel, the guy who led the Afrika Korps, was not in with the Nazi ideology and was actually suspected of trying to assassinate hitler). Also, that was only a part of our theme, since the other half was anime. Finally, we never even mentioned the Nazi ideology as our theme, so there's no way someone would feel hurt by this new alliance, except if they simply felt discriminated by seeing German tanks and a name. I am not saying that there's not any toxic alliances or ideas in the PnW community, but this is clearly not the case.

Really, i'm more upset that in knowing a few people would be pissed, that you didn't put more text in the DOE. Make it more triggering, might as well. Add in alot of WW2 references too, to make it good.

Instead, you just spammed anime pictures. Not even nude ones. That the real reason this DOE should be downvoted.

[Sir Scarfalot]

Just now, Lairah said:

Really, i'm more upset that in knowing a few people would be pissed, that you didn't put more text in the DOE. Make it more triggering, might as well. Add in alot of WW2 references too, to make it good.

Instead, you just spammed anime pictures. Not even nude ones. That the real reason this DOE should be downvoted.

The pictures are suggestive enough and anime enough to trigger 3 pages of discussion on where the line between nazi iconography, nazi sympathy, and innocent memery is. Sure, it's Germany and ww2, but at least their flag isn't this Nazi symbol:

 

(Incidentally, everyone really needs to watch this video about politically incorrect jokes, including how to tell them, how NOT to tell them, and how to recognize them. Especially SJWs that need to learn what the hell a joke is.)