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Zachary Hudson

Suggestion: Remove the Consent rule

Remove Consent  

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4 minutes ago, Natalia Poklonskaya said:

Nah, it really isnt. More like making a suggestion. Whining and complaining is a waste of time for everyone, so let's cut the bullshit and start working in either improving it together and each side making compromises and finding something better for each side or leave. 

 

Dont want to apart of the solution? That's fine and dandy, but dont !@#$ and complain when you had full opportunity to join in and help create a better system that everyone could agree on.

Have you ever considered that some people just have a complaint and not a solution and posit it to others so they might perhaps find a solution in their stead?

Course not, doesn't fit your narrative and disparagement, eh M8?

Don't war with me on the ethics of a fair and sensible debate. You will always lose because the only valid answer is to respect the reasoning of all persons contributing their thoughts, regardless the form they take or whether they are complete and that is my infallible position.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex

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2 minutes ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Have you ever considered that some people just have a complaint and not a solution and posit it to others so they might perhaps find a solution in their stead?

Course not, doesn't fit your narrative and disparagement, eh M8?

Don't war with me on the ethics of a fair and sensible debate. You will always lose because the only valid answer is to respect the reasoning of all persons contributing their thoughts, regardless the form they take or whether they are complete.

Why should others put the effort to at least try find solutions if he/she refuses to even attempt to try? It goes both ways, and tbh if someone doesnt care enough to try to reach out and assist creating a better system, then they have no place to be in the discussion

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3 minutes ago, Natalia Poklonskaya said:

Why should others put the effort to at least try find solutions if he/she refuses to even attempt to try? It goes both ways, and tbh if someone doesnt care enough to try to reach out and assist creating a better system, then they have no place to be in the discussion

Your position remains a moral abomination despite its re-assertion. Would it be nice if people solved the problem? Yes. But not having a solution does not invalidate their thought. And if they don't want to.. so be it. Maybe they want to see you fail? They have a right to want that as well. Perhaps they have reached the conclusion they simply don't want non-consent removed and the system to stand as is? Why put extra effort in when that is their soul objective? Perhaps they think the current state, is the ideal state? As I do.

You get the last word. I am stepping away.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex

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1 minute ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Your position remains a moral abomination despite its re-assertion. Would it be nice if people solved the problem? Yes. But not having a solution does not invalidate their thought. And if they don't want to.. so be it. Maybe they want to see you fail? They have a right to want that as well. Perhaps they have reached the conclusion they simply don't want non-consent removed and the system to stand as is? Why put extra effort in when that is their soul objective? Perhaps they think the current state, is the ideal state? As I do.

To say I want to see others fail makes it sound like I have malicious intentions. I don't. I also don't think the current system is ideal. I just think, given the circumstances, it is the best we will have and the alternatives don't look too great. Insofar, yes, why put in extra effort.

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Just now, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Your position remains a moral abomination despite its re-assertion. Would it be nice if people solved the problem? Yes. But not having a solution does not invalidate their thought. And if they don't want to.. so be it. Maybe they want to see you fail? They have a right to want that as well. Perhaps they have reached the conclusion they simply don't want non-consent removed and the system to stand as is? Why put extra effort in when that is their soul objective? Perhaps they think the current state, is the ideal state? As I do.

Dont bring morals into the conversation. Progress is done by compromises and fruitful discussions with solutions constantly being thrown until both parties agree to the solution. I am not trying to be pushy, but it's a waste of space to complain and not even attempt to try to reach the other side when they voice their opinion. Also to be clear, I dont care if consent is removed or not, Yes, I dont think the current system is ideal, but I am willing to compromise if the other side is. It just ends that your side has no wants to make compromises. 

 

And failing doesnt really matter, this is just a website I go on to have fun. I dont have to get my way to have fun

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5 minutes ago, Just Monika said:

To say I want to see others fail makes it sound like I have malicious intentions. I don't. I also don't think the current system is ideal. I just think, given the circumstances, it is the best we will have and the alternatives don't look too great. Insofar, yes, why put in extra effort.

You can't have an "ideal" system where humanity is concerned. There is nothing with wanting someone to fail when their objectives are flawed. It might actually be better for them.

4 minutes ago, Natalia Poklonskaya said:

Dont bring morals into the conversation. Progress is done by compromises and fruitful discussions with solutions constantly being thrown until both parties agree to the solution. I am not trying to be pushy, but it's a waste of space to complain and not even attempt to try to reach the other side when they voice their opinion. Also to be clear, I dont care if consent is removed or not, Yes, I dont think the current system is ideal, but I am willing to compromise if the other side is. It just ends that your side has no wants to make compromises. 

 

And failing doesnt really matter, this is just a website I go on to have fun. I dont have to get my way to have fun

There's no need to make compromises. This is the best system we can have. It's very simple Natalia. Is player acting like idiot and not being reasonable in their rp? If that is true in your opinion.. there's an ignore function. That's the beauty of consent based rp. Once that's done you never even have to think about them again if you don't want.

So if you want compromise, sorry, not getting it. The system as it is, is better than anything that would be proposed as an alternative. You have presented no reasoning that would bring me to your point of view.. notably because my EXPERIENCE trumps anything that would be presented.

All you have really done is disparaged those that opposed you for the simple position there is no ability to improve.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex

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2 minutes ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

There's no need to make compromises

There is always a need to make a compromise. Both groups both use the forums and have to find a way to coexist. Consent doesn't have to be fully revoked. It needs to be updated.

 

5 minutes ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

The system as it is, is better than anything that would be proposed as an alternative.

The System needs an upgrade. It doesnt have to go, just needs an upgrade

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5 minutes ago, Natalia Poklonskaya said:

There is always a need to make a compromise. Both groups both use the forums and have to find a way to coexist. Consent doesn't have to be fully revoked. It needs to be updated.

 

The System needs an upgrade. It doesnt have to go, just needs an upgrade

Your first premise is absolutely false. You can co-exist under the current system without changes by simply using an ignore button. There is no need to compromise at all. Appeasement is not a necessity.

The system does not need an upgrade, it is working as intended and designed. Your desire to allow some to force their wills on others via arbitrarily chosen methods is noted.. and would destroy this forum. Just a reminder.. been here.. done this before.. on several worlds. (Mah bones are really startin to feel their age.)

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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This system is workong for now, until you all get bored at it again and leave as the last group did. Why? Because you cannot have conflict or real drama while everyone is in their own bubble. You day the current system is fine and that were asking to repeal it without a solution? The consent rule does not exist in organic and the rule always was: the defender decides the outcome within reason. If it's unreasonable, bring it to the mod.

 

I understand that you seem to think not interacting with people in the RP is the way to go, but the reality is that for now it's okay, but people /Will/ get bored, and it will die again just the same.

 

Even having said that, I don't recognize this vote. And not because I'm losing, since I recognized the last one in spite of the loss. I don't recognize it because there isn't 24 people in this community to vote like this, and somehow there are 24 unique votes. One or both sides have been dishonest in the voting.

Edited by Spectral
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30 minutes ago, Spectral said:

This system is workong for now, until you all get bored at it again and leave as the last group did. Why? Because you cannot have conflict or real drama while everyone is in their own bubble. You day the current system is fine and that were asking to repeal it without a solution? The consent rule does not exist in organic and the rule always was: the defender decides the outcome within reason. If it's unreasonable, bring it to the mod.

 

I understand that you seem to think not interacting with people in the RP is the way to go, but the reality is that for now it's okay, but people /Will/ get bored, and it will die again just the same.

 

Even having said that, I don't recognize this vote. And not because I'm losing, since I recognized the last one in spite of the loss. I don't recognize it because there isn't 24 people in this community to vote like this, and somehow there are 24 unique votes. One or both sides have been dishonest in the voting.

Your perspective is immature. I can interact with others without being in a bubble in the rp (heck, I invited people to my state). If I find other mature players wars can be fought, entire nations conquered. It just requires two solid story writers willing to collaborate. Admins forbid we ever expected people to collaborate on conflict *gasp* unpardonable sin I know right?

I'm serious. If I look at your country and it out stats me I'll talk to you about how to grind a war out where I slowly lose ground, and if your margins are overwhelming, I'll even let you oppress my state and roll over to playing resistance groups until I am strong enough in game to start pushing you out of the nation. If that never happens, I'd be in perpetual occupation. And if it lasted long enough, my people might even start liking your state and I'd start rping my nation as PART OF YOURS.

I'd also look at the history of our states together with you to determine where rp developments have occur that may affect the outcome of the conflict, determine spy stories. All it requires is a mature perspective.

People think that because they are losing an IC war, they are losing personally. That's where the whole perspective is flawed. When it comes to RP.. it's not about who wins or looses on the in character level as your nation, what determines the quality of the player, it's about how good you can write a conflict in a collaborative environment. Now, when people here grow up and realize that, rp will become awesome. And the ones that are just being brats.. or full blown trolls, there's an ignore button for them.

Like-wise, some are new to collaborative RP, you have to be patient with them and try to get them to see the light. And if there is something we do not agree on, I'm always willing to accept a dice roll with agreed upon modifiers as a means of resolving iffy situations. You just have to develop techniques for fun, conflict resolution where people don't, as players.. lose out.

You will never know how strong your people are until they are oppressed.
You will never know the character of your nation until it is under duress.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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I beleive we should compromise in being able to have a public suggestion upgrade. instead of removing it completely

Edited by Malestedo
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My god, for those who don't want consent, just go to Organic. The subforum exists for a reason. You're so dead set on forcing the other half of the community to change their ways, when you all can easily go back to Organic and implement the changes you want to see. But instead, you continue to argue and complain in this thread, throwing salt back and forth just because there are people who want things to remain as is. You don't need to fight wars to make a nation RP. Those who join NatRP and accept the current rule set do so because they think they can have fun, but that's just a tad difficult when the number of posts made that result in arguments and OOC attacks greatly outnumber the amount of actual roleplay that goes on here. I've been staying quiet in comparison to the others in this thread. Why? Maybe because whenever I try to bring up a valid point, I'm shrugged off by someone basically saying "well you did this, this, and this before." Fine. I've done things before that I wouldn't do now, but because I've made mistakes, my opinion and points are invalid? Apparently so. In the end, if you aren't having fun in NatRP, just stay in Organic and implement the changes you want. It's completely selfish of you to barge into another subforum attempting to get rules changed when those who are already there are enjoying themselves. I've said my piece, but I'm sure this will be shrugged off and claimed as invalid cause what else is new?

Edited by Eva-Beatrice
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7 minutes ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

The system does not need an upgrade, it is working as intended and designed. Your desire to allow some to force their wills on others via arbitrarily chosen methods is noted.

Just a reminder, this talk is OOC

When did I say that I want to force my will on anybody? This is a nation simulator, it's called Politics and War, both equally matter. When a nation is outright harassing and taunting the world, consequences should be held. If I gave you a valid CB, I definitely wouldn't hide behind a rule to avoid the consequences of being a douche in Character. If players want to taunt and give others multiple valid CBs, then they should be able to handle the consequences of their actions. If you cant handle it, then do not give a reason to make the entire planet a reason to hate your nation. It's really that simple. Every action has an equal opposite reaction. 

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Maelstrom, what you're talking about happens on organic already, collaboration is nice, but at the end of the day, the defender dictates the losses, not the aggressor. If a problem arises, the mod can be asked to arbitrate. Consent has people hiding in their bubble doing their own thing. Doing your own thing is fine, and interaction does happen in natrp. But the reality that we have seen is that when conflict is not a viable possibility, the RP dies. That was proved with the last iteration of the RP.

Call the perspective immature if you want, but it is the reality. When you all get bored in 5-6 months, this RP is going to die again. I think the consent rule is half the problem. Regardless, these corcular arguements are toring and I'm done restating my thoughts to those not interested in hearing them. Stay frosty.

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We should just make a topic for educating people about this so they can make an informed decision instead of making one bringing us to this!

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Also "write it off as shitty roleplay and move on" message: Nah. If they take up space on the map, they should have to face the consequences for their actions 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Don't war with me on the ethics of a fair and sensible debate. You will always lose because the only valid answer is to respect the reasoning of all persons contributing their thoughts, regardless the form they take or whether they are complete and that is my infallible position.

I hadn't planned on posting here due to several issues already pointed out by both Natalia and spectre and my realization that those who want their bubbles will always get their way, but this statement really stuck out because it's probably the dumbest excuse for a response I have ever seen. 

1. There is never one valid answer when it comes to ethics because ethics is based on what an individual person grew up with. I've noticed you claim to be some form of god when it comes to rp so I'll keep my point here short, you aren't. You obviously aren't as experienced as you claim to be or you have a habit of getting into really piss poor made rps.

2. I can't describe how hilarious it is that you think your position is INFALLIBLE. Sweetie you aren't some sort of holy book on all things rp and ethics and you sure aren't Infallible. Maybe I'm being a jerk but honestly I could care less . 

3. When it comes to making rules FOR A COMMUNITY, then yes compromise matters. It's not just you, or just me, or just one group for that matter. It's clear there are two groups who have divided the rp and the only way it'll end without it coming back up in a few months is by coming up with a compromise. Maybe it's not something you're accustomed to but the reality is regardless of where I stand on the consent rule one side is willing to compromise and the other isn't....so get off your high horse calling everyone a child or immature and come up with a logical statement. Kthnx

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Yes, we should. There's no point arguing anymore. We'll just have to be creative with political solutions for rogue nations. 

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7 hours ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Utoh, not so clear vote rusher. Seriously, what is the probability everyone's going to be present within a 24 window to cast their votes? People have lives.

Heck, I was not even AWARE this vote existed because I don't usually bother checking OOC. I stumbled across it by pure accident. So what action has been taken to inform the community of such an important vote?

The poll was set up like a day or two before i even commented, and it doesn't really take that much effort to check the forums. It takes me about 2 minutes to go through reports and then im off.

 

Times up, Consent stays, and im locking this thread because you guys turned this into unnecessary arguments. 

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