PW War Cycles

[Placentica]

I've noticed this was leveled a lot during this dual-pronged great war.  "You never do anything".  So lets go over the timeline to explain why we have stagnation here:

1. An alliance/sphere gets rolled.  The defender can be friends with the attacker.  It makes no difference and there are no consequences for the aggressor.

2. Post-war the defeated alliance/sphere is smaller, less attractive as a treaty partner and usually they had a PR train run on them by the much larger side.

3.  They try to sign new allies, but only their old allies that went through the shit with them stick it out.  Mostly, other alliances try to be nice but create enough distance they won't need to defend them if they are 'next'.  They may even try to use them as meatshields while helping to set up their rolling later on.

4. They are unable to do anything.  Should they try to do something, it's usually a smaller sphere war, something manageable and is usually squashed when a bigger alliance steps in to take advantage.   And by squashing the war, the larger sphere/alliance can continue to claim that that alliance/sphere 'does nothing'.  Win-win!

5. You get rolled for not doing anything.  The alliance/sphere is blamed for the stagnation and even use it as the CB on them.  Bigger sphere gets to claim it did something for use next cycle.

Rinse and Repeat every year or two.

Lets take IQ.  People tried to blame them for stagnation, but who is going to sign an IQ alliance? Sure, TKR tried to pull NPO into their sphere against all their allies. But who really is going to sign an IQ alliance and not force them to be a huge sellout?  So they have to further consolidate with each other, the only alliances that will have them.  The cycle continues as people tell them they are ruining the game with all their treaties even though there are twice as many paperless treaties in this game.

Post-war, make no bones about it.  There will be one sphere in this game.  Whatever you want to call it.  EMC, Paperless EMC, Not-IQ, etc.  You can go roll Pantheon who is probably 'next', but after them either you can just complain that nothing happens or actually create a political environment in this game.  Because we haven't had one for a very long time.  Congrats to BK for being the last alliance to take a stab at that.  Yes, some laugh at them for the move, reinforcing stagnation yet again.  But win or lose, at least they did something politically unlike most of the rest, who while dropping some paper treaties, just kept a paperless one in place and made no real risks to create a better game.  I get the attractiveness to paperless ties.  You get to fight in easy wars, claim you allied and you don't have to defend someone if they are going to lose.  But they are also a big contributing factor to the game's boredom.....in my opinion....that will not be heard by the people who need it the most. 

Best of luck to you all.

[Buorhann]

I'd sign quite a few IQ aligned alliances, honestly.

[Sketchy]

The main premise of your points doesn't even apply to IQ.

17 minutes ago, Placentica said:

1. An alliance/sphere gets rolled.  The defender can be friends with the attacker.  It makes no difference and there are no consequences for the aggressor.

2. Post-war the defeated alliance/sphere is smaller, less attractive as a treaty partner and usually they had a PR train run on them by the much larger side.

3.  They try to sign new allies, but only their old allies that went through the shit with them stick it out.  Mostly, other alliances try to be nice but create enough distance they won't need to defend them if they are 'next'.  They may even try to use them as meatshields while helping to set up their rolling later on.

4. They are unable to do anything.  Should they try to do something, it's usually a smaller sphere war, something manageable and is usually squashed when a bigger alliance steps in to take advantage.   And by squashing the war, the larger sphere/alliance can continue to claim that that alliance/sphere 'does nothing'.  Win-win!

5. You get rolled for not doing anything.  The alliance/sphere is blamed for the stagnation and even use it as the CB on them.  Bigger sphere gets to claim it did something for use next cycle.

2. After the previous war IQ signed multiple treaties and relative to EMC they grew considerably, EMC lost t$/Mensa/tC. They had a significant tiering advantage still in the lower/mid tier.

3. As I just stated above, they did sign new allies, Quite a few of them. Both sides did. So this doesn't apply either.

4. They were the ones in the primary position to move and publicly chose not too. EMC had to split up before anything would happen. 

You've intentionally started from an incorrect foundation in order to get to that conclusion.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Sketchy

[TheNG]

1 minute ago, Buorhann said:

I'd sign quite a few IQ aligned alliances, honestly.

No. NO!
You tread a dark path Buorhann, you must turn back now. That is always how it starts, first it sounds like a good idea to sign one IQ alliance. Then you must sign another, and another. Then your members begin succumbing to Roquentin's corruption, babbling endlessly about planes and 100% taxes before they are replaced with robotic replicas under his control!

Soon you have to kick all your members above 16 cities, sign double MDPs with all IQ AAs, and even laugh at Seeker's jokes. There is no stopping the cycle now, your alliance merges with BK and Roq's ascension ritual gains strength! I have barely escaped with my life and sanity thus far, but I fear for the world. Everyone must keep hitting IQ, lose, and pay them 10 billion in reps to stay out of the upper tier. That's the only way to stop the cycle!

[Buorhann]

I can't laugh at Seeker's jokes.  That's a deal breaker for me.

[Spaceman Thrax]

BK sucks because they tried to brand securing a completely safe tier for themselves as if it was a play for dynamism.

Allying the person who is a biggest threat to you is not what makes things interesting, in my humble opinion.

[Insert Name Here]

2 hours ago, TheNG said:

No. NO!
You tread a dark path Buorhann, you must turn back now. That is always how it starts, first it sounds like a good idea to sign one IQ alliance. Then you must sign another, and another. Then your members begin succumbing to Roquentin's corruption, babbling endlessly about planes and 100% taxes before they are replaced with robotic replicas under his control!

Soon you have to kick all your members above 16 cities, sign double MDPs with all IQ AAs, and even laugh at Seeker's jokes. There is no stopping the cycle now, your alliance merges with BK and Roq's ascension ritual gains strength! I have barely escaped with my life and sanity thus far, but I fear for the world. Everyone must keep hitting IQ, lose, and pay them 10 billion in reps to stay out of the upper tier. That's the only way to stop the cycle!

 

Seriously, IQ should just let this guy do all their FA for them.

[Auctor]

Just merge into BK already

[Dobby the Free Elf]

This is why Arrgh is the best, none of the baloney "politics", we just do as we please.

I will say I admire BK a lot, but the rest of IQ are useless. GoTg is the worst.

 

[Buorhann]

34 minutes ago, Auctor said:

Just merge into BK already

Isn't Cornerstone next on the list to be absorbed by the ayylien menace?

[Insert Name Here]

21 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Isn't Cornerstone next on the list to be absorbed by the ayylien menace?

 

Seems that way. BK is insatiable. First Zodiac and now Cornerstone, which had already absorbed Lord-A-Aron... 

[Roquentin]

For every alliance that merges into BK, I get Papa John's rewards points.

[Zei-Sakura Alsainn]

Meanwhile, over here in reality, the reason people won't sign IQ-alliances is because of the Supremacy Clause. The clause more or less states that by not being an IQ alliance, you are lesser to them as a friend, and will, whether they want to or not, be placed on the back burner.

Is.... it really a surprise that not many try to sign treaties with them? They don't want to be discounted by IQ's Supremacy Clause, and the IQ alliances don't want to leave IQ because they still believe EMC actually exists, and it looks like Nuke bloc does too, because while in reality (where IQ's SP is why they dont get signed by others) all that happened is alliances who happened to at one time be bloc-mates, had a similar goal and decided to work together. 

Or maybe there was just a sale on tinfoil hats and nobody told me, and that's where all this paperless conspiracy nonsense comes from. Frankly, i'm offended you all just let me miss out on such a great deal.

[Insert Name Here]

9 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

For every alliance that merges into BK, I get Papa John's rewards points.

 

NPO and GoG are next, y'all better run for your lives while BK is busy devouring yet another alliance.

[Roquentin]

42 minutes ago, Lairah said:

Meanwhile, over here in reality, the reason people won't sign IQ-alliances is because of the Supremacy Clause. The clause more or less states that by not being an IQ alliance, you are lesser to them as a friend, and will, whether they want to or not, be placed on the back burner.

Is.... it really a surprise that not many try to sign treaties with them? They don't want to be discounted by IQ's Supremacy Clause, and the IQ alliances don't want to leave IQ because they still believe EMC actually exists, and it looks like Nuke bloc does too, because while in reality (where IQ's SP is why they dont get signed by others) all that happened is alliances who happened to at one time be bloc-mates, had a similar goal and decided to work together. 

Or maybe there was just a sale on tinfoil hats and nobody told me, and that's where all this paperless conspiracy nonsense comes from. Frankly, i'm offended you all just let me miss out on such a great deal.

If you believe that's the reason, you haven't been around enough. Most alliances have allies they will give preference to over other ties. This war was a good example. One alliance that most will be aware of  had no supremacy clause and violated intelligence clauses by lying to their ally that they didn't give preference to in order to safeguard the plans of their core sphere. That was hardly the only instance.

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Roquentin

[Micchan]

I pushed to sign Acadia for like 8 months but Smith is not FA anymore so the Forum Fighters lost power on that ;_;

I want the bird!

A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird!

Bird bird bird, b-bird's the word

A-well-a bird bird bird, bird is the word

A-well-a bird bird bird, well-a bird is the word

A-well-a bird bird bird, b-bird's the word

Lairah is right about the supremacy clause, we can't sign an IQ alliance who is still in the bloc because we would make the biggest bloc even bigger and our goal is the opposite, so they have to leave IQ and cut the ties to sign us and they refuse, and I totally understand why because it was hard for us too

Sign nuke bloc is hard to because (at least until now) they had a different playing style and you don't know how they will do in war

You can't sign Avansies or you are accused to play easy mode, run out of options

[Spaceman Thrax]

8 hours ago, Roquentin said:

If you believe that's the reason, you haven't been around enough. Most alliances have allies they will give preference to over other ties. This war was a good example. One alliance that most will be aware of  had no supremacy clause and violated intelligence clauses by lying to their ally that they didn't give preference to in order to safeguard the plans of their core sphere. That was hardly the only instance.

 

Other people handling treaties in a dodgy way doesn't make supremacy clauses any less insulting, really.

If the point you're driving at is "we didn't invent playing treaty favorites and really, good on us for being upfront about it." I can actually agree. However that doesn't mean everyone is doing that, and if I was looking for treaties, I'm pretty sure I can find a more even-handed arrangement with enough of the game that it makes sense for me to look elsewhere.

"Violated intelligence clauses in order to safeguard the plans of their core sphere" is literally how IQ was created and last war was declared, so feel free to drop your present allies if that bit bothers you so much.

[Placentica]

I can only speak for Alpha but we went conventional in every single war where we weren't dogpiled from the start.

168-day war, we rolled SK with VE/SRD and also Chola/RW's uppers.  Silent we started conventional on Mensa via MDP activation (something they still remember, apparently).  The other wars when you have all your defensive slots filled, the war is already over before it began.  Maybe nukes are easy mode, but also being a part of a dogpile where you click airstrike or GA with 3 other people at people with no military is also easy mode.  Neither takes any skill imo.

So lets go over the war cycle for Alpha:

1.  Start getting intel or just realizing you will most likely be targetted yet again.

2. Buy nukes as a defensive measure.

3. Use the best weapon you can - nukes.

4. Get called a one-trick pony, forgetting history.

5. Post-war people say things like you "you just have a different playing style".

6. You have limited FA options so you are targeted yet again.

Repeat 2-6. 

 And that is why the political environment here sucks.  There isn't even plotting anymore.  It's just, "Who is weakest, lets attack them because no one will care."  When you just attack someone you are friendly with, just because the opportunity presents itself, you might as well just remove the political simulation from the game.  And asking someone, "Hey, wanna hit xyz alliance/sphere with me?" isn't really politics.

Until Guardian/allies, TKR/allies, or The Syndicate/allies want to fight each other you will continue fast track your way to the stagnation that killed that other game.  I'd have thrown BK in there, but that actually happened because BK seemed to genuinely want a better game. Finally, lol at NPO/BK eating up Rose's lowers while Rose let it's other allies burn to EMC. Now that's some real political "dynamism" there.  I guess that's more of a fool me once shame on you, fool me twice or 3+ times and shame on me.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Placentica

[James XVI]

Seems like a major thorn in many alliance's sides, are treaties and all associated crap paper. If only there was an alliance route to take that didn't revolve around paper...

[Buorhann]

20 hours ago, Roquentin said:

violated intelligence clauses by lying to their ally

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

So, uh, how did IQ form up again?

[Roquentin]

11 hours ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Other people handling treaties in a dodgy way doesn't make supremacy clauses any less insulting, really.

If the point you're driving at is "we didn't invent playing treaty favorites and really, good on us for being upfront about it." I can actually agree. However that doesn't mean everyone is doing that, and if I was looking for treaties, I'm pretty sure I can find a more even-handed arrangement with enough of the game that it makes sense for me to look elsewhere.

"Violated intelligence clauses in order to safeguard the plans of their core sphere" is literally how IQ was created and last war was declared, so feel free to drop your present allies if that bit bothers you so much.

It is the point I'm driving at. There will be favorites regardless. While there have been formalized blocs such Covenant, IQ, Paragon, and Spectrum, the informal blocs have had equal emphasis put on them.  Regardless of supremacy clauses, there would be preferential treatment given to certain allies over others. I don't thin you would be able to find a more even-handed arrangement unless the alliance involved had no other priorities.

I was giving an example of an implicit supremacy clause being acted on. Anyone who is in a sphere  will definitely prefer a core ally over someone else so that means an alliance giving up its own sphere to treaty into another will be subordinate to other interests. In case people have missed it at this point despite the wars showing clear demarcated lines, there are several core ally sets out there even when the treaties don't explicitly say so. Anyone treatying them or making arrangements would be given less preference than the core constitutents.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Roquentin

[Doughnuts]

After this war IQ wouldn't be dead, nor will the non IQ side, the problem with most wars is you will find most alliances are pixel huggers and even if we have a 3rd side to this war they would join who they felt would win.

Not enough people pushing to be number one right now, I know BK has taken in Zodic and Connerstone and im sure it wont be long before TKR treaties with them out of fear or fight them out of fear.

War will live on as long as you all push for it

[Settra]

4 hours ago, Roquentin said:

It is the point I'm driving at. There will be favorites regardless. While there have been formalized blocs such Covenant, IQ, Paragon, and Spectrum, the informal blocs have had equal emphasis put on them.  Regardless of supremacy clauses, there would be preferential treatment given to certain allies over others. I don't thin you would be able to find a more even-handed arrangement unless the alliance involved had no other priorities.

I was giving an example of an implicit supremacy clause being acted on. Anyone who is in a sphere  will definitely prefer a core ally over someone else so that means an alliance giving up its own sphere to treaty into another will be subordinate to other interests. In case people have missed it at this point despite the wars showing clear demarcated lines, there are several core ally sets out there even when the treaties don't explicitly say so. Anyone treatying them or making arrangements would be given less preference than the core constitutents.

So that is why NPO only fights with BK, not the rest of their allies. It all makes sense now.

[Bezzers]

6 hours ago, MoonShadow said:

Not enough people pushing to be number one right now, I know BK has taken in Zodic and Connerstone and im sure it wont be long before TKR treaties with them out of fear or fight them out of fear.

Your lack of information on this matter is remarkable 

[Tesoro]

@MoonShadow you're becoming famous!