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Moderators support Sharia law and the subjugation and oppression of women.


Sketchy
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I warned Alex about Erin being a dubious moderator long ago.

Looks like it's coming to fruition.  Not only is the thread not prejudiced, but she doesn't even know what racism is.  If the thread was critical, it would be critical against a religion, not a race. 

Keep in mind that I say this in light of what I said in the thread itself about the topic being shallow.  Just because you have a shallow topic doesn't mean you have a prohibitive one.

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You were mocking Islam just as saying "jewish rules" to pick your favourite coins, or "American rules" to pick your favourite mass shooting would have been culturally insensitive. In all of these cases it leads to things enshrined in their core text, the fact that jews were allowed to be moneylenders at a time when christians were not, or that americans can legally buy machine guns while mentally unstable, but is either a sore point for most members of that community, or a steriotype that has historically been linked to discrimination against them. Most Muslims don't have multiple wives or treat women as being of a lower value, but by taking something that their religion (and for political reasons, sometimes their laws) actively support and speaking of it is if all muslims acted in that way, you do mock a whole group of people. 

I'd agree with you that you stayed clearly on this side of racism or discrimination, I did not like your post, but I would not have banned it. But as a German I can tell you that our country's collective weird hate for jews didn't just appear one day when Hitler said: "Right, it's all their fault" - it was a societal understanding that grew out of an increased intolerance towards another culture, propagated by "just a joke" style banter, until certain steriotypes became so ingrained in people's minds that they saw a jewish person and instantly "knew" that person to be part of the reason why Germany was going down the drain. 

If a muslim posts what you posted, it has an air of self-criticism. If Tywin here says: "I'm muslim and I think it's fine", then that's great. And it seems that right now, Islam is beginning to rethink itself, especially in the wake of ISIS. But to mock another group of people, as they themselves and not you are the ones struggling with whatever problems they may have, feels distinctly improper. Post about the problems in your society, there are enough around. I think there is some Christian idiom about checking for the wooden pole stuck in your own eye, before you point out the dust in someone else's, but what do I know, I'm an Atheist. Still, it is generally not a bad rule not to mock other people, but to instead just work on yourself.So while I would not have banned it, I do think it was not a good post. 

Edited by Syrano
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42 minutes ago, Syrano said:

You were mocking Islam just as saying "jewish rules" to pick your favourite coins, or "American rules" to pick your favourite mass shooting would have been culturally insensitive. In all of these cases it leads to things enshrined in their core text, the fact that jews were allowed to be moneylenders at a time when christians were not, or that americans can legally buy machine guns while mentally unstable, but is either a sore point for most members of that community, or a steriotype that has historically been linked to discrimination against them. Most Muslims don't have multiple wives or treat women as being of a lower value, but by taking something that their religion (and for political reasons, sometimes their laws) actively support and speaking of it is if all muslims acted in that way, you do mock a whole group of people. 

I'd agree with you that you stayed clearly on this side of racism or discrimination, I did not like your post, but I would not have banned it. But as a German I can tell you that our country's collective weird hate for jews didn't just appear one day when Hitler said: "Right, it's all their fault" - it was a societal understanding that grew out of an increased intolerance towards another culture, propagated by "just a joke" style banter, until certain steriotypes became so ingrained in people's minds that they saw a jewish person and instantly "knew" that person to be part of the reason why Germany was going down the drain. 

If a muslim posts what you posted, it has an air of self-criticism. If Tywin here says: "I'm muslim and I think it's fine", then that's great. And it seems that right now, Islam is beginning to rethink itself, especially in the wake of ISIS. But to mock another group of people, as they themselves and not you are the ones struggling with whatever problems they may have, feels distinctly improper. Post about the problems in your society, there are enough around. I think there is some Christian idiom about checking for the wooden pole stuck in your own eye, before you point out the dust in someone else's, but what do I know, I'm an Atheist. Still, it is generally not a bad rule not to mock other people, but to instead just work on yourself.So while I would not have banned it, I do think it was not a good post. 

The difference is Islam explicitly condones the behavior mentioned in the thread.  What he said isn't a stereotype.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygyny_in_Islam

 

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1 minute ago, Dubayoo said:

The difference is Islam explicitly condones the behavior mentioned in the thread.  What he said isn't a stereotype.

Islam is not a person. It's not even a single law or single religion really. Do most muslims condone the behaviour? Hard to say. Certainly many do not. But the phrasing suggests that this is how "muslims" (steriotype) think. And that, while to me also not a bannable offense, isn't really great. On the contrary, I think it enforces an existing growing islamophobic trend. 

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1 minute ago, Syrano said:

Islam is not a person. It's not even a single law or single religion really. Do most muslims condone the behaviour? Hard to say. Certainly many do not. But the phrasing suggests that this is how "muslims" (steriotype) think. And that, while to me also not a bannable offense, isn't really great. On the contrary, I think it enforces an existing growing islamophobic trend. 

The belief system itself condones men having up to four wives regardless of what specific individuals calling themselves Muslim claim to believe in.

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Just now, Dubayoo said:

The belief system itself condones men having up to four wives regardless of what specific individuals calling themselves Muslim claim to believe in.

The American belief system condones daily massacres. From the accepted use of drones, to torture methods, to letting anybody buy a gun - that does not mean individuals calling themselves American support all those values. And it's a discussion, especially the bit about internal gun abuse, that you guys need to have amongst yourselves. If you were playing this game on a majority chinese server and they kept mocking your perceived barbarism *and* chinese drones were actively killing americans in america on a daily basis, you might feel different about a harmless joke here or there at the expense of your values. 
And most tragically, you might be inclined to defend things you normally would not, just because the person attacking them is foreign to you, and from a culture that is killing people of your culture. Letting other sort their shit out and not mocking them while they do should not be a highly contentious opinion... in my opinion ^^ 

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1 minute ago, Syrano said:

The American belief system condones daily massacres. From the accepted use of drones, to torture methods, to letting anybody buy a gun - that does not mean individuals calling themselves American support all those values. And it's a discussion, especially the bit about internal gun abuse, that you guys need to have amongst yourselves. If you were playing this game on a majority chinese server and they kept mocking your perceived barbarism *and* chinese drones were actively killing americans in america on a daily basis, you might feel different about a harmless joke here or there at the expense of your values. 
And most tragically, you might be inclined to defend things you normally would not, just because the person attacking them is foreign to you, and from a culture that is killing people of your culture. Letting other sort their shit out and not mocking them while they do should not be a highly contentious opinion... in my opinion ^^ 

Where is it written that "the American belief system" condones that?

You're confusing a lot of beliefs there as well.

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The bottomline is when looking at the definition of belief systems, we must look at their original intent. If we don't, then we create a chaotic environment where the very definition of words becomes unreliable.  People end up dictating their personal opinions as the appropriate definitions of words which means people can't depend on language to express ideas when they intend to do so.  Instead, words themselves become a politicized domain which forces people to assume a risk of not communicating clearly.

The Quran very deliberately says it's permissible for men to have four wives.  In turn, whether active "Muslims" believe in this or not, Islam contains this belief.  In contrast, America's Constitution does not permit daily massacres even if its people are given the right to bear arms.  In fact, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are explicitly mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

This is a very simple point to understand.  It doesn't need to be overcomplicated.

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1 hour ago, Syrano said:

You were mocking Islam just as saying "jewish rules" to pick your favourite coins, or "American rules" to pick your favourite mass shooting would have been culturally insensitive. In all of these cases it leads to things enshrined in their core text, the fact that jews were allowed to be moneylenders at a time when christians were not, or that americans can legally buy machine guns while mentally unstable, but is either a sore point for most members of that community, or a steriotype that has historically been linked to discrimination against them. Most Muslims don't have multiple wives or treat women as being of a lower value, but by taking something that their religion (and for political reasons, sometimes their laws) actively support and speaking of it is if all muslims acted in that way, you do mock a whole group of people. 

I'd agree with you that you stayed clearly on this side of racism or discrimination, I did not like your post, but I would not have banned it. But as a German I can tell you that our country's collective weird hate for jews didn't just appear one day when Hitler said: "Right, it's all their fault" - it was a societal understanding that grew out of an increased intolerance towards another culture, propagated by "just a joke" style banter, until certain steriotypes became so ingrained in people's minds that they saw a jewish person and instantly "knew" that person to be part of the reason why Germany was going down the drain. 

If a muslim posts what you posted, it has an air of self-criticism. If Tywin here says: "I'm muslim and I think it's fine", then that's great. And it seems that right now, Islam is beginning to rethink itself, especially in the wake of ISIS. But to mock another group of people, as they themselves and not you are the ones struggling with whatever problems they may have, feels distinctly improper. Post about the problems in your society, there are enough around. I think there is some Christian idiom about checking for the wooden pole stuck in your own eye, before you point out the dust in someone else's, but what do I know, I'm an Atheist. Still, it is generally not a bad rule not to mock other people, but to instead just work on yourself.So while I would not have banned it, I do think it was not a good post. 

I'm glad to know that you agree that having a thread following the islamic doctrine of sharia is a mockery.

I complete agree! I too believe Sharia is a mockery!

 

 

Psweet> pro-tip: don't listen to baronus if Prezyan disagrees with him

5:48 AM — +Eva-Beatrice sq**rts all over the walls

Eva-Beatrice> I'd let Sintiya conquer me anyday x)

10:56 PM — +Eva-Beatrice m*st*rb*tes in front of Prezyan

12:13 AM — +Eva-Beatrice has no one to !@#$ :(

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5 minutes ago, Prezyan said:

I'm glad to know that you agree that having a thread following the islamic doctrine of sharia is a mockery.

I complete agree! I too believe Sharia is a mockery!

Well, I think everyone playing an online politics and war game basically agrees that we'd rather not live under Sharia rule :D But taking Sharia rule, calling it "Islam" and mocking 1 billion people's varied and differing beliefs with that blanket term ... is kind of douchy? I wonder how our moderators would have felt btw if instead of "Islamic Rules" Rozalia had used the specific term "Sharia law", which refers to one specific code of laws in which a version of what he was saying applied... Not that it would change the basic point behind it, which is to mock others... 

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2 minutes ago, Syrano said:

Well, I think everyone playing an online politics and war game basically agrees that we'd rather not live under Sharia rule :D But taking Sharia rule, calling it "Islam" and mocking 1 billion people's varied and differing beliefs with that blanket term ... is kind of douchy? I wonder how our moderators would have felt btw if instead of "Islamic Rules" Rozalia had used the specific term "Sharia law", which refers to one specific code of laws in which a version of what he was saying applied... Not that it would change the basic point behind it, which is to mock others... 

For one, Sharia is Islamic Law, but apart from that, I must ask.

Do you take the same offense when Christians are mocked?

 

 

Psweet> pro-tip: don't listen to baronus if Prezyan disagrees with him

5:48 AM — +Eva-Beatrice sq**rts all over the walls

Eva-Beatrice> I'd let Sintiya conquer me anyday x)

10:56 PM — +Eva-Beatrice m*st*rb*tes in front of Prezyan

12:13 AM — +Eva-Beatrice has no one to !@#$ :(

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Wow. Just wow.  In the grand scheme of moderation issues, this was a micro issue.  Someone is clearly a little too sensitive, biased, or not particularly cognizant of actual islamic life.  Roz can hardly be "mocking" polygamist tendencies of islam in a negative way when he himself advocates for polygamy.  Rather, he uses islam as a shield for those who are of a certain bent,  to prevent being shouted down by comparing himself to something they refuse to criticize.

Headscratcher for sure.  I don't think polygamy is a good idea.  It is definitely a part of islam via the Quran, and if you have questions I can introduce you to my Yemeni in-laws.  In fact, it's totally uncontroversial.  Not as if Roz was making an argument that the Quran and Hadiths literally advocate for mass murder of all nonbelievers...which is also a debatable question, not a stereotype.

Shutting down speech rather than engaging in conversation about whether there is an issue is just an embarassing example of poor moderation.  And quite frankly, if you're islamic and dislike the polygamy bit...it isn't my fault that it is there, and demanding I not talk about it to spare you embarassment over it makes it appear as if you support polygamy but, deep down, feel it is shameful.

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1 minute ago, Prezyan said:

For one, Sharia is Islamic Law, but apart from that, I must ask.

Do you take the same offense when Christians are mocked?

That's a fair question, and in truth, I do not. But then, at least by the laws of my country, I am a christian myself. Also, there are no drones flying over my head killing my people. I am far more sensitive about the mockery of people I already feel we are treating badly. And finally, it depends for me on the public mood. I have received multiple downvotes here already just for suggesting that maybe we should not mock people, despite agreeing with Rozalia that he should not have had his post banned. When it is this popular to hate on one group, and this unpopular to even say "well, but maaaybeee we're being dicks?" then I feel like this mockery is part of a more dangerous current of islamophobic tendencies and therefore worth at least warning against. Like I said, I'm German, I have some notion of where the total disregard for another culture can lead. 

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1 hour ago, Syrano said:

You were mocking Islam just as saying "jewish rules" to pick your favourite coins, or "American rules" to pick your favourite mass shooting would have been culturally insensitive. [...]

I'd agree with you that you stayed clearly on this side of racism or discrimination, I did not like your post, but I would not have banned it. [...]


[...]Post about the problems in your society, there are enough around.

[...] So while I would not have banned it, I do think it was not a good post. 

Edited for simplicity.

A more accurate example, Syrano, would be Roz telling you to pick a meal, but with "Jewish rules." No pork, no yeast, no shellfish, all-Kosher ingredients.  Moneylending is not part of jewish scriptures in the same way, that's a more tenuous connection like islamic scriptures and terrorism.

And yes, I certainly didn't see any racsim from Roz, although there was potential for racism from those so inclined.  Racists might say any number of distasteful things about women with darker skin tones than themselves if so prompted.

"Post about the problems in your own society" amuses me.  Basically, we're really gonna go down that road?  (A) nobody was posting about problems, Roz likes polygamy, and (B) as rational human beings, let's apply that backwards to Germany 1936. The rest of Europe TRIED ignoring a society with problems and it got out of hand.  They criticized it a lot, and eventually, we all wound up at war over it until the land-grabbing invasion of multiple sovereign nations and a genocidal purge of an entire semitic people-group was stopped.  Being afraid to critique and engage in the public square is a recipe for disaster as those more malevolent ignore the rules and seize an audience.

Agreed that banning the post was ridiculous.

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Roz, you were clearly using Islam as a shield to make you sound less controversial and so that this thread would be made if you got in trouble. You and many others in this game have been using Islam as a scapegoat and it's just getting annoying at this point.

The real question is, why did you make the thread in the first place? What point were you trying to make? Don't say it's "just a game" because if it was then you wouldn't be making such a big deal of it being locked.

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Massive unequal application of mod rules. We have multiple posters promoting violence against women and racial segregation basically running the forums.

I found Rozs post to be a distasteful dogwhistle, and it wouldn't even break my top 20 for threads in need of mod intervention this month. 

If your going to actually follow the forum rules now, more power to you, but don't act like railroading Rozalia has suddenly brought peace to these troubled lands.

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I told you.

First they came for the Thot Patrol, then Iron Guard, and now anyone who disagrees with their agenda.

Shifty will set you free. Pledge yourself to his service. 

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  • Moderators
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Moderation Staff

  • Speculation regarding the identities of game staff and/or revealing identities of game staff is strictly prohibited. These actions are punishable up to, and including, a ban on your forum and game account.
  • Being rude or disrespectful to any of the game staff is not allowed. Creating posts "calling out" moderators or the game staff is prohibited.
  • Impersonation of, or an intention to imply that you are a moderator, administrator, or other P&W official is forbidden.
  • Any concerns with the moderation staff should be addressed with the game administrator, Alex, via pm.
  • Abuse of the report system is strictly prohibited.
  • Do not ask to become a moderator. Moderation positions are invitation only.

As this thread is a call-out thread to the moderators, it has been locked and warns will be given to the OP and others in violation of this rule.

If you have concerns about the moderation team, please PM Alex about it. 

Following the rules isn't hard guys. 

 

 

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I will review this issue myself (I have been involved to this point) but I will bluntly state that any "whataboutism" regarding other posts is not a defense of any rule-breaking forum post. I am not necessarily saying this the posts in question here were rule-breaking, as I have not yet reviewed them, but if you believe that there are other, worse rule-breaking forum posts, please report them. There is a button to report on each post, and we rely on these reports heavily to moderate the forum. Myself and the forum moderators cannot review every single post on this large forum.

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