Tell me how Communism is bad

[Dubayoo]

I'd respond except you clearly don't understand the difference between right and wrong... not that I'm surprised since you defend communism which doesn't have a sense of morality to begin with.  Your obsession with materialism prevents you from appreciating who people are on the inside that counts.

 

Right and wrong aren't defined by what you do.  They're defined by why you do it.  Killing someone who's corrupt isn't a bad thing.  Killing someone who's pure is a bad thing.  Police officers who are assigned to disperse a peaceful demonstration are corrupt, so killing them isn't a bad thing.  The demonstrators were defending themselves which isn't a problem.

 

Your obsession with dialectic reasoning also prevents you from grasping morality.  In real life, there are not always two sides to a story.  Sometimes, one side lies and the other tells the truth.  Synthesizing thesis with antithesis there only gets you a half-truth.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Argotitan

[Big Brother]

I'd respond except you clearly don't understand the difference between right and wrong... not that I'm surprised since you defend communism which doesn't have a sense of morality to begin with.  Your obsession with materialism prevents you from appreciating who people are on the inside that counts.

 

Right and wrong aren't defined by what you do.  They're defined by why you do it.  Killing someone who's corrupt isn't a bad thing.  Killing someone who's pure is a bad thing.  Police officers who are assigned to disperse a peaceful demonstration are corrupt, so killing them isn't a bad thing.  The demonstrators were defending themselves which isn't a problem.

 

Your obsession with dialectic reasoning also prevents you from grasping morality.  In real life, there are not always two sides to a story.  Sometimes, one side lies and the other tells the truth.  Synthesizing thesis with antithesis there only gets you a half-truth.

 

>Begins response to me by saying "I'd respond to you"

C'mon dude.

 

Out of all the arguments you could have chosen, that's what you decided to go for? You're joking, right? Way to crash and burn any shred credibility you possessed. If you want to argue against the Venezuelan opposition being shitty, provide some actual evidence and some actual relevant arguments instead of going of on some random ass rant about how I'm apparently incapable of morality, which is just stupid and ridiculous. Oh and let's not forget dehumanizing. If you're not going to actually discuss the topic at hand, stop posting. But hey, let's address your nonsense.

 

I am perfectly capable of judging what is right and wrong and you cannot in any way actually prove than this is not the case. I could dismiss your entire post based on that alone because you really are just talking shit. Defending communism in the face of lying fools like you is one of the most moral things I can do. I'm not obsessed with materialism, this is just you talking out of your ass again. The ideology that reduces humanity to cogs in the machine is capitalism, not communism. Capitalism through capitalists prevent people from realizing their full potential by coercing them to labor under the threat of violence and the peril of starvation. It's capitalism that has reduced the human experience to the sum of your labor, a number, like a battery being drained dry. You grow up, you're prepared to work, you work for the vast majority of your healthy adult life because you really have no choice in the matter and then once you're old enough and no longer as useful a tool, you're allowed to live out the few days you have left in peace until you die. You are expected to spend the majority of your life working to make people higher up on the food chain richer, while only receiving part of the value you work to create. This is the world that capitalism has created, the world the Venezuelan opposition seeks to maintain:

 

 

But sure, I'm immoral for wanting a system of perpetual exploitation to end. Right dude, totally

 

Right and wrong are defined by a great many things by many different people. Your idea of right and wrong is meaningless to millions if not billions of other people. Your words are empty and it's obvious that you're just spinning things to fit with the narrative that you and Western media push. Killing someone is always a bad thing and it is always preferable to avoid it. Even if I knew that the people killed were evil people, their deaths would still be tragic and unfortunate. I can agree that sometimes people dying leads to good things, but we should never let ourselves believe that the murder of fellow human beings is good even if that is the case.

 

Now, how the !@#$ do you know that they're corrupt? Prove it before you run your mouth. Of course, of course, every single police officer sent out to disperse these violent protests are corrupt, every single one of them. For sure! That's not a generalization completely lacking in actual evidence at all. And of course, the poor peaceful protesters were only defending themselves when they murdered police officers and government supporters. Right dude, sure. Tell me, are you even convincing yourself with these arguments? Surely no one is stupid enough to fall for that. Why is so important to you to argue that that these protesters are peaceful when they're clearly not? What is the harm in admitting that you were wrong? I'd respect that far more than I respect you lying and trying to spin things like this. I'm not saying that they're all violent thugs, I'm just saying that they're not all peaceful freedom loving buddies either. Stop internalizing falsehoods and start being open to the evidence at hand. Look, here's a video of police officers being shot at by your poor, vulnerable, peaceful friends:

 

 

As for the dialectic, I didn't mention it anywhere in my post. You're generalizing, talking shit, making unfounded claims about me as an individual, apparently trying to derail the discussion, while seemingly ignoring the evidence I've presented and not presenting a single scrap of empirical evidence yourself. What you're doing isn't going to cut it. This is the behavior of someone who's wrong and doesn't want to admit it. Instead of actually addressing what I posted, instead of making your own counter-claims, backed up by evidence, you're just trying to deflect attention from yourself being wrong by trying to state truths about me as a person, which is a battle you'll always lose because I know myself better than you ever will. Seriously dude, either do better or don't do anything at all.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Big Brother

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

This is no place for name calling and warns will be doled out if need be. Keep it civil. 

[Quichwe10]

IMO, Communism will probably only happen in a post scarcity world, where there will be unlimited resources for our unlimited wants. There's also going to have to have been a major shift in the mindset of humans as a whole in order to work for the common good and not have any !@#$ running around. AIs might help in that regard or something. Then, I guess humanity will, dunno, do a lot of social shit and stuff, but really kinda stagnate until we all die or something. Not much incentive to drive forward if you already live in a utopia. 

[Dubayoo]

*Communism is good because communism is good.  By the way, capitalism is bad because I said so, and I have no idea what the difference is between social and economic policies.  I'm also a utopian who believes every fact that happens in reality is recorded.  If a tree fell in a forest, but nobody heard it, it didn't make a sound*

 

Self-referencing arguments aren't an argument mate.  Try again.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Argotitan

[Big Brother]

Self-referencing arguments aren't an argument mate.  Try again.

 

Let me know when you're actually going to engage in discussion and have something to say other than grammatically incorrect bullshit.

[Dubayoo]

Let me know when you're actually going to engage in discussion and have something to say other than grammatically incorrect bullshit.

 

Keep trolling boss.  You're just making communism look worse and worse.

[ComradeMilton]

Sorry for the delay. I've been out of state for a couple of days. 

 

ComradeMilton, on 26 May 2017 - 9:55 PM, said:

They're democratic and free to elect someone else if they feel like it.

 

Most of them now shop in Colombia anyway.

"Venezuelan opposition leaders have reacted with fury to the unveiling of President Nicolás Maduro’s timetable to redraft the country’s constitution and delay regular elections until the end of the year." (Source)

Sounds very democratic. Imagine if Trump delayed elections. Is there a reason to believe he wouldn't?

 

"Economists disagree on Venezuela’s actual inflation rate, with their estimates ranging from 350 per cent to 2,200 per cent." (Source)

Not too much longer. Soon, their currency will be worthless.  That's not a huge issue. A lot of countries just end up using ours as the official currency, but there's also the Euro available to replace it.

 

ComradeMilton, on 26 May 2017 - 7:23 PM, said:

I'm not sure it's a utopian society, somewhere without economic problems or anything else. It's definitely not bankrupt, though. Yes, if you read what I said in that post, you would see that I agree that they aren't bankrupt. Just broke. Broke is inaccurate, but I'm sure you don't care about accuracy.

 

During my American surgery I also had to bring a number of my own medicines. I highly doubt, you had to bring medicine for the surgery itself, as the article implied. I suspect you had to bring your medicine because you could have been there a prolonged period of time and they didn't want to possibly give you a wrong medicine.  They had a list of my medications and hospital pharmacies are the most comprehensive you can find. Who do you think you have to go to if you need liquid cocaine, for example? They were alerted a month in advance of all medications necessary and it takes at most two days for delivery of medications to them. One was in fact for the surgery and the other is not, but is necessary so their ignoring that and not stocking it while planning to keep me for recovery kind of doesn't well.

 

Yeah, here it's mostly just the elderly that have to choose between medicine and eating. Venezuela is a good example on how not to setup a socialist system. Exactly. But why are you still defending it so strongly? I'm being accurate. It's not really a defense and if I am leaning towards their side it's mostly a result of W trying to coup Chavez out of power.

 

Vigilantes Torch Home, Kill Innocent Woman - CBS News Yay, your first source you used against me. However, one arson doesn't compare to Venezuela's situation. Is it the lack of being doused in flammable liquids that changes it? Because either way it's burning someone to death extrajudicially. (

)

 

Or perhaps mismanagement given it sounds like she permitted this problem to happen. The health ministry doesn't import food. It's not her fault that the government agency in charge of importing food didn't import enough. And it's the health ministry who would be running healthcare, thus if there are medication shortages, there they are.

 

Ours sure is:  http://247wallst.com...nt-afford-food/Not being able to afford one trip to the store is not equal to losing nineteen pounds in one year because of starvation. In addition, you are comparing people not being able to afford food in a free market to people not being able to obtain food in a socialist country because the government is not operating correctly or importing enough food. I mean, if you want to use comparisons like that, then Venezuela's monthly minimum wage is roughly 45 USD (according to the unofficial exchange), where the US minimum wage is 7.25 USD per hour. An 8 hour work day in the US at minimum wage would make more than the monthly minimum wage in Venezuela. Yay, faulty analogies! :^) Commuting from Venezuela to the US each day for work isn't terribly practical. Nice dodge on even addressing the very similar problems in the US.

 

People really need to decide if they want bureaucracy OR a lack of government accountability. The former is present to prevent the latter. Does it, though? Yes. If your house is foreclosed upon in error without the red tape and bureaucracy keep tracking of who is deciding what and whether it's legal or accurate, for example. The Department of Agriculture employed 47% more people in 1972 than 1952, despite the number of farms dropping by 45%. The IRS staffed 28% more in 1972 than in 1952, almost the same growth as the number of tax returns filed (26%). However, the number of tax returns processed per employee dropped from 1580 to 1554, despite the IRS switching to rely on machines and computers during the same period. (Source) If you install such a system as comprehensive as you're describing it's probably a result of the size of the IT staff they'd necessarily have to begin employing to support it.

 

The current leader isn't great, but we don't allow international aid groups into the United States to feed our starving people either. Again, comparing apples to oranges. The people starving in the US are starving in a free market where they have the ability to purchase food (in other words, food is actually available on the shelves of markets). The starving in Venezuela are starving because their socialist government nationalized so much land and isn't importing enough food for the people. So it's cool for Americans to starve, but horrible for Venezuelans in an identical situation? If you're choosing between eating and remaining alive the fact that a product is on a shelf really doesn't matter if you can't pay for it.

 

http://247wallst.com...nt-afford-food/Not being able to afford one trip to the store is not equal to losing nineteen pounds in one year because of starvation. In addition, you are comparing people not being able to afford food in a free market to people not being able to obtain food in a socialist country because the government is not operating correctly or importing enough food. I mean, if you want to use comparisons like that, then Venezuela's monthly minimum wage is roughly 45 USD (according to the unofficial exchange), where the US minimum wage is 7.25 USD per hour. An 8 hour work day in the US at minimum wage would make more than the monthly minimum wage in Venezuela. Yay, faulty analogies! :^) You also entirely neglected to adjust for cost of living. I'm just going to ignore it and assume it's all bad math.

 

They sound pretty bad at raising livestock. I'd blame them absent some reason not to. Let me post more of the article (in orange) to provide context. 

Escobar said he needs 400 tons of high-protein imported animal feed every three months to keep his operation running, but he’s able to get only 100 tons. So, like many others, he’s turned to the black market. But he can only afford a cheaper, less nutritious feed, meaning that his hens are smaller than they used to be — and so are their eggs.

“My quality went down, so my production went down, too,†he said.

Escobar’s hogs also are skinnier. An average full-size pig weighed 242 pounds two years ago, he said. “Now they weigh 176.†Last year, he lost 2,000 hogs in three months when the animals got sick and he couldn’t find vaccines.

The piglets born since then are undersized. Many have bloody wounds at the tips of their ears. “When an animal has a poor diet, it looks for nourishment elsewhere,†explained Maria Arias, a veterinarian at the farm. “So they end up chewing off the ears of other pigs.â€

Sounds more like a problem with the amount of food imported by the government than being a bad farmer. Oh well. They'll have to figure something out.

[ComradeMilton]

Keep trolling boss.  You're just making communism look worse and worse.

I don't think anyone's trying to market communism. It'd be pretty hilarious to take a notorious method used in capitalism to subconsciously increase customer demand in an effort to protect (?) wherever it is communism may show up in the future.

[Mateus]

When I get a son, I'll show him this post, then I'll tell him how commies can stay for so long chatting about the same thing when they know that what they're defending is just alot of genocide stuff.

[ComradeMilton]

An economic theory that's never been seen is genocidal?

[Pylon69]

Now you might ask, why would they do this? The answer is simple, to maintain the myth of a peaceful and democratic opposition and to fool fools like you, fools who are apparently only interested in getting one side of the story.

 

You need to watch your words goyim. Big Brother is watching and you'll be one of the first to be sent off to one of the "re-education" camps after the Globalist complete their Infinite Tsukuyomi.

 

I never​ said Zimbabweans actually did that lol.

 

The statement that most Venezuelans shop in Columbia is just false,for plain and obvious reasons.Venezuela isn't that democratic when you look deeper.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/08/meet-the-bachaqueros-the-venezuelans-turning-to-the-black-market/

People are making a business out of buying from neighbouring nations to sell back in Venezuela

 

"But with oil now hovering around $50 a barrel, Maduro's administration can't afford to import enough food and also pay down its debts to foreign creditors. For now, it's prioritized debt payments over shipping in food."

What a great situation they have in Venezuela. Absolutely terrific. They have an excellent, absolutely the best, government leaders following through with the will of the people. They're such a shining example showing how wonderful their system allows them to attend to all basic payments they need to make. Such a magnificent beacon of hope for the uncivilized capitalists. 

 

I like to think it's the perfect example at how apathetic and selfish the world has become. The countries Venezuela are in debt too are forcing these conditions on the people for some money. And it's not like anyone is really much to blame about this ordeal as the oil problem that started was by pure accident on Venezuela's part(perhaps alittle mismanagement). But the suffering of the people is very conscious and the Loan sharks I believe should bare some of the responsibility.

[Dubayoo]

This is real life Venezuela: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-goldman-sachs-idUSKBN18P1Z5

 

The opposition to Maduro the socialist is complaining about Goldman Sachs buying bonds issued by the country.

 

You can't tell me the opposition is tied to capitalism here when the opposition literally complains about capitalism sanctioning socialism.

[ComradeMilton]

Their credit rating is probably shot. Just write off the bonds. Easy.

[Big Brother]

This is real life Venezuela: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-goldman-sachs-idUSKBN18P1Z5

 

The opposition to Maduro the socialist is complaining about Goldman Sachs buying bonds issued by the country.

 

You can't tell me the opposition is tied to capitalism here when the opposition literally complains about capitalism sanctioning socialism.

 

You're joking, right? Capitalists complaining about other capitalists does not make either of them less capitalist.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Big Brother

[WISD0MTREE]

Is there a reason to believe he wouldn't? acta non verba

 

"Economists disagree on Venezuela’s actual inflation rate, with their estimates ranging from 350 per cent to 2,200 per cent." (Source) That's not a huge issue. What are you smoking? It only hurts the poor people who can't afford to save money now. What little they do save will be worthless. (I actually find it funny that you think they'll just replace their currency with one from a capitalist country.) 

 

Broke is inaccurate, but I'm sure you don't care about accuracy. All depends on your definition. To me, 100*F isn't too hot. Likewise, as I am employed in a decent paying job, not being able to afford enough food for your population is broke. 

 

 

 

I'm being accurate. It's not really a defense and if I am leaning towards their side it's mostly a result of W trying to coup Chavez out of power. â€‹You do realize Maduro is in power, right? 

 

Is it the lack of being doused in flammable liquids that changes it? Because either way it's burning someone to death extrajudicially. No, it is how widespread it is. Link

 

The health ministry doesn't import food. It's not her fault that the government agency in charge of importing food didn't import enough. And it's the health ministry who would be running healthcare, thus if there are medication shortages, there they are. I wasn't aware a lack of food caused malnutrition? 

 

Commuting from Venezuela to the US each day for work isn't terribly practical. Nice dodge on even addressing the very similar problems in the US. Dude, did you even read my comment? I said "Yay, faulty analogies! :^)." That was an example of me giving a faulty analogy along the lines of the one you posted prior to that comment. 

 

If you install such a system as comprehensive as you're describing it's probably a result of the size of the IT staff they'd necessarily have to begin employing to support it. â€‹The point of computer technology is to improve efficiency. If you have to increase the number of people employed to do the same work less efficiently, then I'd say computerization is a waste. And what about the other examples? 

 

Again, comparing apples to oranges. The people starving in the US are starving in a free market where they have the ability to purchase food (in other words, food is actually available on the shelves of markets). The starving in Venezuela are starving because their socialist government nationalized so much land and isn't importing enough food for the people. So it's cool for Americans to starve, but horrible for Venezuelans in an identical situation? If you're choosing between eating and remaining alive the fact that a product is on a shelf really doesn't matter if you can't pay for it. There are plenty of ways to increase your employability. Now, granted there are a few situations where that still won't be enough. You'll never make a putt in golf if you hit it short. That's why you practice hitting it harder (self improvement). If there is no hole on a green, then you could be Woods or McIlroy and you still wouldn't make the putt. 

 

idk like something stupid. Again, did you even read my comment? I said "Yay, faulty analogies! :^)." That was an example of me giving a faulty analogy along the lines of the one you posted prior to that comment. Socialism will obviously have a lower cost of living than capitalism with lower wages. Comparing a socialist government not importing enough food to people not being able to afford food on a free market is just as stupid, as the government has more control on the chain in the former. 

 

Oh well. They'll have to figure something out. k

[ComradeMilton]

No need to quote. Your post is simply wrong. I guess I could copy and paste that on more or less every line, but this is easier.

[Dubayoo]

You're joking, right? Capitalists complaining about other capitalists does not make either of them less capitalist.

 

Yea, actually, it does.

 

It means they don't believe capitalism is the end all to be all of right and wrong.  They believe capitalism should have standards.

 

In fact, this is one of the reasons liberation theology took off in the history of Latin America.  Many local capitalists became disgruntled by the perversion of capitalism by foreigners.  They became populists because they understood the properness behind property rights had to be restored.

[Big Brother]

Yea, actually, it does.

 

It means they don't believe capitalism is the end all to be all of right and wrong.  They believe capitalism should have standards.

 

In fact, this is one of the reasons liberation theology took off in the history of Latin America.  Many local capitalists became disgruntled by the perversion of capitalism by foreigners.  They became populists because they understood the properness behind property rights had to be restored.

 

You posted that "you can't tell me the opposition is tied to capitalism", then you go on to post that "it means they don't believe capitalism is the end all to be all of right and wrong. They believe capitalism should have standards". Are you trying to refute yourself? Are there no ties between the opposition and capitalism or do they support "capitalism with standards"? If the latter is true, the former must be false.

 

Capitalism with standards is still an inherently exploitative and malevolent ideology. Whether people support unbridled capitalism or capitalism with restraint they continue to be either a part of the bourgeoisie or class traitors.

[Pylon69]

This is real life Venezuela: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-goldman-sachs-idUSKBN18P1Z5

HOLY SHIT!!!! CHECK OUT THE BROW ON THIS MOTHER!@#$ER!!!!.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Honest question:

In a Communist society, are Doctors who studied medicine and surgical procedures who deal with life or death situations on a regular basis given the same equal pay as say, a cashier in a fast food restaurant?

 

I ask honestly because I have heard many, many, did I mention many? different answer with differing rationale. I would like a serious response with an explanation.

[Big Brother]

Honest question:

In a Communist society, are Doctors who studied medicine and surgical procedures who deal with life or death situations on a regular basis given the same equal pay as say, a cashier in a fast food restaurant?

 

I ask honestly because I have heard many, many, did I mention many? different answer with differing rationale. I would like a serious response with an explanation.

 

My own understanding is that the goal of Communism is "the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state. Note, the absence of money. If there is an absence of money then obviously no one would be paid with money, which means the answer to your question is no.

 

I'm more or less paraphrasing here but Communism is a stage of socioeconomic development that comes into fruition because of a superabundance of material wealth, which is caused by advances in production technology (the most obvious example of this is automation) and alterations in the social relations of production. These changes will allow for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals. Distribution based on need refers to "free access and distribution of goods, capital and services". Healthcare is a service which means that in a Communist society doctors would provide access to their services to people based on their need and because their own needs are provided for in a similar manner, there would be no need for them or anyone else to barter with money.

 

In The Principles of Communism, Section 18, Friedrich Engels writes "finally, when all capital, all production, all exchange have been brought together in the hands of the nation, private property will disappear of its own accord, money will become superfluous, and production will so expand and man so change that society will be able to slough off whatever of its old economic habits may remain". He goes into further detail about the steps required to reach this stage in the text, so I recommend looking into it if you're really interested. The Principles of Communism might actually be a better introduction to the ideology than The Communist Manifesto.

[Doktor Avalanche]

-snip-

First, thank you for your response.

 

It looks pretty equal "pay" if we define free access and distribution of goods, capital and services as payment.

I can see the pros and cons to this.

 

I have read through the Communist Manifesto, forced myself to pay attention through three volumes of Das Kapital and though some would argue his Communist views as more Anarchist, Peter Kropotkin's social Darwinian rant called Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution.

I know I have read more but those three always stood out to me, the first two are pretty self explanatory as to why. However my actual knowledge of Communism itself based upon what I have read and absorbed shows me one factor which always come up, and that is there is no incentive other than to help the collective whole, which, well, yeah- not very exciting, is it. It may be a motivational-brick-wall to pursue such careers if the cashier can achieve the same services and goods as a Doctor who has given twelve plus years of their life to study. I know there are counters to this in theory but it is something worth mentioning. Much is a matter of changing the mindset of what is value, however there is truth to human nature and the need for one-upping the neighbor with a nicer car. Competition is a strong natural instinct.

[ComradeMilton]

My own understanding is that the goal of Communism is "the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state. Note, the absence of money. If there is an absence of money then obviously no one would be paid with money, which means the answer to your question is no.

Basically this, yeah ^

[Dubayoo]

Here you go guys.  This kid explains it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqB-EMqpsUA