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Sweden, Germany and the death of the west

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I actually think it is the west's fault for no longer standing for its own values. In the interest of protecting 'diversity and culture' they have also endorsed values that are quite honestly unacceptable.

 

The fact that Muslim leaders in the west get away with sexist and homophobic messages whilst any christian leader even getting close to this getting ripped on is disgraceful. If you are going to project values do it equally and stop protecting minorities from them. If they refuse to endorse these reasonable values then they deserve to be marginalised.

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I actually think it is the west's fault for no longer standing for its own values. In the interest of protecting 'diversity and culture' they have also endorsed values that are quite honestly unacceptable.

 

The fact that Muslim leaders in the west get away with sexist and homophobic messages whilst any christian leader even getting close to this getting ripped on is disgraceful. If you are going to project values do it equally and stop protecting minorities from them. If they refuse to endorse these reasonable values then they deserve to be marginalised.

Muslims are seen as "brown" by leftists so it is their "culture" if they have beliefs that are against current social norms but Christians are seen as "white" so are oppressors, therefore any of their beliefs that are similar to Muslims are then hateful and to be condemned.

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So is it about Race or Culture?

 

You know what, nevermind.  I'm done talking to White Supremacists.  Ya'all can do your Sieg Heils and wave your swastika and confederate flags.  America beat you losers before, and we'll do it again.

Its about both naturally, I prefer if countries native ethnic groups stay the same.

 

"Former"

Now he is uh...teaching US, Canadian, Polish, German, British and other countries, police forces, and military on how to COMBAT ISLAMIC EXTREMISM.

While you fuel it....GG

Anyone triggered by words detailing how barbaric they're shouldn't be there in the first place.

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I actually think it is the west's fault for no longer standing for its own values. In the interest of protecting 'diversity and culture' they have also endorsed values that are quite honestly unacceptable.

 

The fact that Muslim leaders in the west get away with sexist and homophobic messages whilst any christian leader even getting close to this getting ripped on is disgraceful. If you are going to project values do it equally and stop protecting minorities from them. If they refuse to endorse these reasonable values then they deserve to be marginalised.

 

Whoa there. Who said Muslim leaders in the west can get away with those things? I don't recall hearing a Muslim leader (in the US at least) say something incredibly sexist and have no one condemn them for it. Even if that were true, this assumes that Muslims in the west share the same values as their leaders. If people always shared the exact same values as their leaders, everyone in the world would think Americans just love grabbing a big handful of !@#$ all day. 

 

 Lightning talks strongly but does not seem to be a white supremacist.

 

This made me laugh. 

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There's a difference between white supremacy and patriotism. Lightning, as far as I can tell, is not a white supremacist, but rather someone who would like to keep a unique culture intact, and its peoples along with it. Nothing about Roman salutes or rebel flags here, no sir, just some people who believe that culture is a gift and it should be treated with care.

 

See, this is the issue with you guys and why most people would call you guys white supremacists. "Keeping a unique culture intact, and its people along with it" is an inherently white supremacist statement, because it assumes that the United States is claimed by a singular culture and people (that of a white, protestant christian background). 

 

Here's why that's stupid and unpatriotic: 

The United States, unlike other countries of the world, was not founded on a single race or religion. On the contrary, roughly a fifth of the new republic's population was African-American or African descent. Furthermore, a wide range of religions also existed within the states. Maryland was almost entirely Catholic. Pennsylvania was famous for Quakers. New York had a large German population. The Ohio Valley area had a lot of French traders, mostly Catholic. This is entirely excluding the Native Americans who initially outnumbered the colonists. While the question of defining citizenship constantly (up to this day, even) brought debate and intrigue, the US has always had a history of xenophobic rejection (on the basis of race or religion) and then rolled back on its decision because it goes against the fundamental principles of its founding. Take African Americans, or the Chinese, or the Japanese, or the German Catholics, or the Eastern Europeans. American history has been a constant struggle of defining citizenship and attempting to reconcile that with its founding principles. 

 

Here's what white supremacists have used as arguments for hundreds of years: 

"They don't share our values"

"They are dangerous, immoral, corruption-driven beasts"

"We need to preserve our culture from their taint"

"They are a diseased body that will infect the body politic"

 

The irony is, statistically speaking, your family has probably experienced the same rhetoric just a couple generations ago. White supremacists are inherently unpatriotic, because they don't believe in the values inherent in our founding principles. They spout patriotism, but at the end of the day are least likely to defend our principles. They don't believe in the principles of inherent rights.  They believe that a single superior bloodline lays claim to the new world, forgetting their heritage as undesired exiles of the old. This nation and those who live here have always been defined by its principles. Abandoning those principles abandons our culture. 

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See, this is the issue with you guys and why most people would call you guys white supremacists. "Keeping a unique culture intact, and its people along with it" is an inherently white supremacist statement, because it assumes that the United States is claimed by a singular culture and people (that of a white, protestant christian background). 

 

Here's why that's stupid and unpatriotic: 

The United States, unlike other countries of the world, was not founded on a single race or religion. On the contrary, roughly a fifth of the new republic's population was African-American or African descent. Furthermore, a wide range of religions also existed within the states. Maryland was almost entirely Catholic. Pennsylvania was famous for Quakers. New York had a large German population. The Ohio Valley area had a lot of French traders, mostly Catholic. This is entirely excluding the Native Americans who initially outnumbered the colonists. While the question of defining citizenship constantly (up to this day, even) brought debate and intrigue, the US has always had a history of xenophobic rejection (on the basis of race or religion) and then rolled back on its decision because it goes against the fundamental principles of its founding. Take African Americans, or the Chinese, or the Japanese, or the German Catholics, or the Eastern Europeans. American history has been a constant struggle of defining citizenship and attempting to reconcile that with its founding principles. 

 

Here's what white supremacists have used as arguments for hundreds of years: 

"They don't share our values"

"They are dangerous, immoral, corruption-driven beasts"

"We need to preserve our culture from their taint"

"They are a diseased body that will infect the body politic"

 

The irony is, statistically speaking, your family has probably experienced the same rhetoric just a couple generations ago. White supremacists are inherently unpatriotic, because they don't believe in the values inherent in our founding principles. They spout patriotism, but at the end of the day are least likely to defend our principles. They don't believe in the principles of inherent rights.  They believe that a single superior bloodline lays claim to the new world, forgetting their heritage as undesired exiles of the old. This nation and those who live here have always been defined by its principles. Abandoning those principles abandons our culture. 

 

>united states

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Drivel

 

The title of this topic is about Europe, unless you've got anything to say about Europe then refrain from speaking

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Whoa there. Who said Muslim leaders in the west can get away with those things? I don't recall hearing a Muslim leader (in the US at least) say something incredibly sexist and have no one condemn them for it. Even if that were true, this assumes that Muslims in the west share the same values as their leaders. If people always shared the exact same values as their leaders, everyone in the world would think Americans just love grabbing a big handful of [email protected]#$ all day. 

 

You're really trying this. Baiting us to post examples of Muslim leaders so you can respond, "Not All". The simple truth is Muslims and that includes their leaders are as a norm sexist, racist, homophobic, and a number of other things. Some Muslim leaders out there will to the cameras and reporters state when asked by people like you (who want their twisted reality confirmed so badly) that no, they are fully accepting of women... while having their Mosques be segregated and believing that in their law a woman is worth less than a man.

 

Of course there are Muslims who aren't such things... well I say that, they are simply Apostates to most Muslims as a result of their acceptance. I'd like to actually support those good Muslims but... "racist".

 

Face up to truth for once. If people like you had faced these problems head on and sorted them out then you'd not be the constant losers you are today. Into the dustbin of history with you if you fail to learn.

 

See, this is the issue with you guys and why most people would call you guys white supremacists. "Keeping a unique culture intact, and its people along with it" is an inherently white supremacist statement, because it assumes that the United States is claimed by a singular culture and people (that of a white, protestant christian background). 

 

Here's why that's stupid and unpatriotic: 

The United States, unlike other countries of the world, was not founded on a single race or religion. On the contrary, roughly a fifth of the new republic's population was African-American or African descent. Furthermore, a wide range of religions also existed within the states. Maryland was almost entirely Catholic. Pennsylvania was famous for Quakers. New York had a large German population. The Ohio Valley area had a lot of French traders, mostly Catholic. This is entirely excluding the Native Americans who initially outnumbered the colonists. While the question of defining citizenship constantly (up to this day, even) brought debate and intrigue, the US has always had a history of xenophobic rejection (on the basis of race or religion) and then rolled back on its decision because it goes against the fundamental principles of its founding. Take African Americans, or the Chinese, or the Japanese, or the German Catholics, or the Eastern Europeans. American history has been a constant struggle of defining citizenship and attempting to reconcile that with its founding principles. 

 

Here's what white supremacists have used as arguments for hundreds of years: 

"They don't share our values"

"They are dangerous, immoral, corruption-driven beasts"

"We need to preserve our culture from their taint"

"They are a diseased body that will infect the body politic"

 

The irony is, statistically speaking, your family has probably experienced the same rhetoric just a couple generations ago. White supremacists are inherently unpatriotic, because they don't believe in the values inherent in our founding principles. They spout patriotism, but at the end of the day are least likely to defend our principles. They don't believe in the principles of inherent rights.  They believe that a single superior bloodline lays claim to the new world, forgetting their heritage as undesired exiles of the old. This nation and those who live here have always been defined by its principles. Abandoning those principles abandons our culture. 

 

That sort of thing is actually said all across Europe and it is so tired and discredited. Great Britain for example is spoken as having no culture, that its a "melting pot" because Saxons, Normans, Vikings, and so forth. All the other countries in Europe have been at times held by X, Y, and Z people so in all those it is also claimed that multiculturalism is how its always been. To try and better enforce multiculturalism our dear leaders claim that we have always held multiculturalism as a vital part of our principles even though multiculturalism is ultimately a recent concept. 

 

Now as for America I would say that if you really believe those hokey lines of yours then you are delusional. Not going to bother going beyond that as its quite obvious you're trying to steer this towards America so you can hit us all with your tired memes of it. 

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http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/opinion/liam-bartlett/liam-bartlett-whos-asking-muslim-hierarchy-to-stop-condemning-gay-community/news-story/5f00c8f2782af0e6ee8e23eeb47e404e

 

White Australian: Public outrage over slight sexist comment

 

Muslim Australian: Clear gross homophobic messages being conveyed, no outrage.

 

Don't lecture if you don't do it equally.

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It's easy. We don't get that outraged over Muslims saying stupid stuff as we do white people, because we simply hold white people to a higher standard. It's a bit condescending, but deservedly so, because Muslim culture as a whole is backwards and morally inferior. Don't see how patting them on the head saying "There, there. It's ok, poor retard" is the same as agreeing to their values. It's condescension, not tolerance. Am I really the only one to see that? All so scared they will take over, no one else is taking it that seriously. Just leave the special kid alone in the corner with his crayons. No reason to make such a big deal about it. Enjoy their food and their cheap labour and ignore everything else. It does not matter.

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It's easy. We don't get that outraged over Muslims saying stupid stuff as we do white people, because we simply hold white people to a higher standard. It's a bit condescending, but deservedly so, because Muslim culture as a whole is backwards and morally inferior. Don't see how patting them on the head saying "There, there. It's ok, poor retard" is the same as agreeing to their values. It's condescension, not tolerance. Am I really the only one to see that? All so scared they will take over, no one else is taking it that seriously. Just leave the special kid alone in the corner with his crayons. No reason to make such a big deal about it. Enjoy their food and their cheap labour and ignore everything else. It does not matter.

 

The massive disrespect (what that is) for minorities those people have is well known but most simply don't even realise it. To them minorities are as children who can't be held to the same standard as actual people, all while they accuse others of supremacist thought.

 

Now in regards to the excuse... no. Ask the victims of Muslims how good it is to know the people who protect their attackers really believe they're "retards". Ask those who want to leave the faith but can't for fear for reprisal how  much their oppressors being seen as retards matter. Ask the members of small Muslim sects how it feels that massive Islamophobia against them by the main Muslim group that unlike the Islamophobia against their attackers goes completely ignored. Ask those who suffer from sexism and segregation how fine it all is because their oppressors are seen as "retards".

 

People suffer and die over this weakness. This is no game or minor matter, it involves real people. Stating that you believe Muslims are so inferior that they should be treated as if they were children is no valid excuse. 

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First off, me saying that's how people see it doesn't mean I agree with it. I'm kinda just here to throw in some different points. I personally don't really care all that much. I don't feel like this is an issue that's in any way important for my life. Arguing for arguing's sake. So then:

As long as they are in our culture, there are legal ways to save themselves from most of the situations you mentioned. Not like the laws don't apply to Muslims living here. 

In case you're talking about people living in Muslim majority countries, the answer is simply that most people don't care. If they manage to move out and seek refuge in a country that shares their values, good for them, if they share most of the Muslim values but are still sad they're discriminated against, then no one can save them. Can't help people who aren't able to understand that they're complicit in discrimination. Would you feel sorry for a female Neonazi, who is discriminated against in her Neonazi community based on sex? I don't think so.

If we are talking terrorist attacks: don't know why we act like the 50 people who died in terrorist attacks are such a big deal. I mean sure on a personal level that sucks very badly. On a countrylevel that is hardly statistically relevant. 

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First off, me saying that's how people see it doesn't mean I agree with it. I'm kinda just here to throw in some different points. I personally don't really care all that much. I don't feel like this is an issue that's in any way important for my life. Arguing for arguing's sake. So then:

As long as they are in our culture, there are legal ways to save themselves from most of the situations you mentioned. Not like the laws don't apply to Muslims living here. 

In case you're talking about people living in Muslim majority countries, the answer is simply that most people don't care. If they manage to move out and seek refuge in a country that shares their values, good for them, if they share most of the Muslim values but are still sad they're discriminated against, then no one can save them. Can't help people who aren't able to understand that they're complicit in discrimination. Would you feel sorry for a female Neonazi, who is discriminated against in her Neonazi community based on sex? I don't think so.

If we are talking terrorist attacks: don't know why we act like the 50 people who died in terrorist attacks are such a big deal. I mean sure on a personal level that sucks very badly. On a countrylevel that is hardly statistically relevant. 

 

Of course I was referring to over here in the "West". As for "legal ways to save themselves" I'll tell you the sole way. Leave town and live far away from Muslims as the weak police cannot handle Muslim hate crimes due being so handicapped in how they can handle it.

 

As for your example of a discriminated female Neonazi... ironically I have actually seen the oddity of Neonazis liking a female and even non white Neonazi though I have sadly forgotten her name (former model I think, considered to have some mental issues). To be fair she was Asian and as racist as Neonazis tend to be most actually seem to really like Asian women. Likely a combination of "Yellow fever" and the seeking of a submissive female partner they can have total superiority over (and Asian women are considered to be incredibly submissive). Ever heard of "substitute white women & children"?

 

Pedophilia is also in the grand scheme of things pretty low when it comes to numbers. Does that mean we just throw our hands up and say, "who cares"? You have to tackle these issues as otherwise it will only over time (where more incidents happen) amplify the hatred and tolerance for said group. That in combination with the mass attack of sensible people stating sensible things by calling them racist, Nazi, and so forth to the point those terms no longer even matter means that if given time someone who will either kick every single member of a group out or even worse kill them all will rise up. The likes of Farage, Trump, Le Pen, and such will be nothing compared to the likes we will see in the future if we don't fix things. I'd rather avoid that myself.

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Our motto must be "Unity in diversity"

  
I mean I don't think those who separate human in terms of religion are anything more or less than idiot , we need to understand that ISIS is not representative of islam neither Al quaeda / laden was , if we search history properly those radical organisation in middle east are created to destabilize soviet back that time and funded by western forces and those organisation never represent any religion and I don't think I can hate/kill a child just because he is muslim / christan / hindu and if somebody can they are terrorist we need to separate terrorism and islam. 

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There's a difference between white supremacy and patriotism. Lightning, as far as I can tell, is not a white supremacist, but rather someone who would like to keep a unique culture intact, and its peoples along with it. Nothing about Roman salutes or rebel flags here, no sir, just some people who believe that culture is a gift and it should be treated with care.

The title of this topic is about Europe, unless you've got anything to say about Europe then refrain from speaking

 

Sorry, when you said Lightning was "keep[ing] a unique culture intact," I thought you were referring to the US. It never occurred to me that lightning was from Europe! Here I thought Lightning was a 14 year old in the whitest, most underfunded part of Kansas, thus explaining his basic lack of grammar. If I had known Lightning was learning English as a second language, I wouldn't have been so harsh on him. all of you out. 

 

Also, let's keep score here shall we? Ultra nationalists have killed more people in the last 100 years than radical terror. If anything, the European countries should kick all of you out. 

 

 

You're really trying this. Baiting us to post examples of Muslim leaders so you can respond, "Not All". The simple truth is Muslims and that includes their leaders are as a norm sexist, racist, homophobic, and a number of other things. Some Muslim leaders out there will to the cameras and reporters state when asked by people like you (who want their twisted reality confirmed so badly) that no, they are fully accepting of women... while having their Mosques be segregated and believing that in their law a woman is worth less than a man.

 

Of course there are Muslims who aren't such things... well I say that, they are simply Apostates to most Muslims as a result of their acceptance. I'd like to actually support those good Muslims but... "racist".

 

Face up to truth for once. If people like you had faced these problems head on and sorted them out then you'd not be the constant losers you are today. Into the dustbin of history with you if you fail to learn.

 

 

That sort of thing is actually said all across Europe and it is so tired and discredited. Great Britain for example is spoken as having no culture, that its a "melting pot" because Saxons, Normans, Vikings, and so forth. All the other countries in Europe have been at times held by X, Y, and Z people so in all those it is also claimed that multiculturalism is how its always been. To try and better enforce multiculturalism our dear leaders claim that we have always held multiculturalism as a vital part of our principles even though multiculturalism is ultimately a recent concept. 

 

Now as for America I would say that if you really believe those hokey lines of yours then you are delusional. Not going to bother going beyond that as its quite obvious you're trying to steer this towards America so you can hit us all with your tired memes of it. 

 

Multiculturalism as a recent concept or word? Multiculturalism has been around for a very long time, the word to describe it was recent. And I'm not talking about culture, so much as ideals of religious tolerance being an integral part of the (US) founding. American exceptionalism and all. 

 

Let's also keep in mind that multiculturalism has been a unifying factor in keeping war out of a region of the world famous for being violent.Nationalism (or anti-"multiculturalism") has been the primary CB in several hundred years of European war. It has been through American leadership that you savages haven't fallen back into the dark ages. If America went back into isolationism after the Second World War, all of you worthless old world incompetents would just go at each other's throats again. 

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Our motto must be "Unity in diversity"

 

  I mean I don't think those who separate human in terms of religion are anything more or less than idiot , we need to understand that ISIS is not representative of islam neither Al quaeda / laden was , if we search history properly those radical organisation in middle east are created to destabilize soviet back that time and funded by western forces and those organisation never represent any religion and I don't think I can hate/kill a child just because he is muslim / christan / hindu and if somebody can they are terrorist we need to separate terrorism and islam. 

Can't seperate the very sexist and homophobic undertone from it though and tbh that is a much bigger issue.

 

Let's also keep in mind that multiculturalism has been a unifying factor in keeping war out of a region of the world famous for being violent.Nationalism (or anti-"multiculturalism") has been the primary CB in several hundred years of European war. It has been through American leadership that you savages haven't fallen back into the dark ages. If America went back into isolationism after the Second World War, all of you worthless old world incompetents would just go at each other's throats again. 

Most of western Europe was pretty well united when a bigger threat (USSR) came along, not so much because the US forced it upon them although it certainly used it to its advantage. This continues pretty much to this day, most europeans are generally weary of Russian aggression or expansion and the US uses NATO to keep it in-check. US otherwise doesn't care a lot about promoting multiculturalism.

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Our motto must be "Unity in diversity"

 

  I mean I don't think those who separate human in terms of religion are anything more or less than idiot , we need to understand that ISIS is not representative of islam neither Al quaeda / laden was , if we search history properly those radical organisation in middle east are created to destabilize soviet back that time and funded by western forces and those organisation never represent any religion and I don't think I can hate/kill a child just because he is muslim / christan / hindu and if somebody can they are terrorist we need to separate terrorism and islam.

 

Any glance at history will tell you that diversity as you think of it is weakness and division, not strength and unity. 

 

Not All. Yes we know. 

 

You're missing the main point here. Terrorists are bad yes but so are the normal (Conservative/Moderate) Muslims alongside them. Why are so many of them so bad? Because people such yourself will state meaningless platitudes like that instead of taking them head on and forcing them to change their hateful ways. Imagine if back in the day when racism/sexism was extreme the people of the time simply took the position of "not all people are racist/sexist so lets forget about it, its cool". Nothing would have advanced.

 

Unless you treat the likes of Christian fundies the same way then you're a hypocrite. 

 

Also, let's keep score here shall we? Ultra nationalists have killed more people in the last 100 years than radical terror. If anything, the European countries should kick all of you out. 

 

Multiculturalism as a recent concept or word? Multiculturalism has been around for a very long time, the word to describe it was recent. And I'm not talking about culture, so much as ideals of religious tolerance being an integral part of the (US) founding. American exceptionalism and all. 

 

Let's also keep in mind that multiculturalism has been a unifying factor in keeping war out of a region of the world famous for being violent.Nationalism (or anti-"multiculturalism") has been the primary CB in several hundred years of European war. It has been through American leadership that you savages haven't fallen back into the dark ages. If America went back into isolationism after the Second World War, all of you worthless old world incompetents would just go at each other's throats again.

 

We've gone from White Supremacists and Nazis to Ultra Nationalists now. I'd be interested in what definition you're using but I suppose its an improvement. 

By many definitions what you've said is nonsense but if we have to play that game where you attribute all those deaths to Nationalism, alright cool. Islam (and Christianity yes as I know that'll be your go to) has killed far more people.

 

Its recent in the form it is in today yes. A state having more than one cultural group has been a thing for a long time but not as a desired concept. The rare times someone tried it something like it (to try and keep a large empire together) it would end up failing massively leading to very bad events indeed. As will this attempt if its not done away with in time.

 

Absolute poppycock. Next you'll be saying the EU who couldn't do a thing about the Yugoslav wars has kept Europe war free. As for your other tripe you'll find that such stereotypes are quite outdated, something you'll clearly never pick up on your own due to your self imposed ignorance. Its anecdotal yes but the vast majority of fellow Nationalists I've talked to are anti-war (as am I), certainly far more than you "Centrist" types who are warmongers (who at times pretend otherwise being the phoney people they are).

Edited by Rozalia

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Sorry, when you said Lightning was "keep[ing] a unique culture intact," I thought you were referring to the US. It never occurred to me that lightning was from Europe! Here I thought Lightning was a 14 year old in the whitest, most underfunded part of Kansas, thus explaining his basic lack of grammar. If I had known Lightning was learning English as a second language, I wouldn't have been so harsh on him. all of you out. 

 

Also, let's keep score here shall we? Ultra nationalists have killed more people in the last 100 years than radical terror. If anything, the European countries should kick all of you out. 

 

 Stupid American making assumptions. 

I don't really mean that, I already knew you had low intelligence. 

Edited by Lightning

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Our motto must be "Unity in diversity"

 

  I mean I don't think those who separate human in terms of religion are anything more or less than idiot , we need to understand that ISIS is not representative of islam neither Al quaeda / laden was , if we search history properly those radical organisation in middle east are created to destabilize soviet back that time and funded by western forces and those organisation never represent any religion and I don't think I can hate/kill a child just because he is muslim / christan / hindu and if somebody can they are terrorist we need to separate terrorism and islam. 

 

thats a fat meme

 

 

Sorry, when you said Lightning was "keep[ing] a unique culture intact," I thought you were referring to the US. It never occurred to me that lightning was from Europe! Here I thought Lightning was a 14 year old in the whitest, most underfunded part of Kansas, thus explaining his basic lack of grammar. If I had known Lightning was learning English as a second language, I wouldn't have been so harsh on him. all of you out. 

 

Also, let's keep score here shall we? Ultra nationalists have killed more people in the last 100 years than radical terror. If anything, the European countries should kick all of you out.

 

I mean sure, you can apply the US to this as well, but as you said it's stupid to say that America is exclusively white, but that same standard shouldn't apply to other historically and predominantly white countries, such as those in western Europe (the topic of the discussion). Not so that Lightning is from Europe, that's not what I was insinuating - I meant that Lightning wants to keep the unique European identity intact, and thus the European culture. Any other country has the right to do this, however, not nearly as many countries are under threat of cultural death as the western European countries are. 

 

As for your comments about nationalists, what would happen if you kicked them out? Well it's quite simple, they'd make a new nation out of the one they came from.

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Jk this was already discussed.

 

Reading above, do you guys believe every single cultural group should have its own territory? This would fracture Europe, the USA, China, Africa, basically everywhere into pieces.

 

To me that doesn't seem like "order". It seems like chaos. How would you agree on borders? How many local disputes would occur over territory?

 

And if you ever play Stellaris, you'd see how this idea is by very foundation xenophobic. Yeah blah blah I'm taking the concept from a game. But to me, it's a good game and did a good job of representing both xenophobes and xenophiles. I would consider myself a xenophile because I like learning from other cultures and developing my own unique personality and ideas based on many cultural influences. To me, that not only makes me more well rounded and empathetic, I think it brings me closer to the truth.

Edited by MrsPigeon

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Most of western Europe was pretty well united when a bigger threat (USSR) came along, not so much because the US forced it upon them although it certainly used it to its advantage. This continues pretty much to this day, most europeans are generally weary of Russian aggression or expansion and the US uses NATO to keep it in-check. US otherwise doesn't care a lot about promoting multiculturalism.

 

I disagree. Obama was keen to try and influence England's decision to leave the European Union. Sure, you could say it's because US ties with Britain helps if their economy isn't shit, but there was also a matter of "multiculturalism" in there. The more proper term should be globalization. Point is, nationalists have been at each other's throats in Europe for a long time, and that stupid notion is why millions of Europeans kept dying. 

 

We've gone from White Supremacists and Nazis to Ultra Nationalists now. I'd be interested in what definition you're using but I suppose its an improvement. 

By many definitions what you've said is nonsense but if we have to play that game where you attribute all those deaths to Nationalism, alright cool. Islam (and Christianity yes as I know that'll be your go to) has killed far more people.

 

Its recent in the form it is in today yes. A state having more than one cultural group has been a thing for a long time but not as a desired concept. The rare times someone tried it something like it (to try and keep a large empire together) it would end up failing massively leading to very bad events indeed. As will this attempt if its not done away with in time.

 

Absolute poppycock. Next you'll be saying the EU who couldn't do a thing about the Yugoslav wars has kept Europe war free. As for your other tripe you'll find that such stereotypes are quite outdated, something you'll clearly never pick up on your own due to your self imposed ignorance. Its anecdotal yes but the vast majority of fellow Nationalists I've talked to are anti-war (as am I), certainly far more than you "Centrist" types who are warmongers (who at times pretend otherwise being the phoney people they are).

 

Silly you, ultranationalists/Nazis/white supremacists are pretty much the same thing, just white supremacists/ultranationalists lack a basic underlying economic strategy. Also, bullshit. WWI alone killed more people than all the pathetic Crusades ever did. The battle of [email protected]#$ Verdun killed more people than any religious conflict in history. That's also excluding WWII, which killed more people than any conflict in history. Nationalism has killed more people than religion. Period. Also, for someone who spouts Chinese references, I would imagine you would have thought of China as a multicultural empire that's been pretty successful in recent years. Sure, social tensions exist, but it hasn't led to the utter collapse of China as a state in the last few decades the communists came to power. 

 

Oh? Are you forgetting the cause of the Yugoslav wars? Nationalism, silly. 

 

 Stupid American making assumptions. 

I don't really mean that, I already knew you had low intelligence. 

 

Are you European or kid from Kansas? I'll know if you lie to me :P

 

I mean sure, you can apply the US to this as well, but as you said it's stupid to say that America is exclusively white, but that same standard shouldn't apply to other historically and predominantly white countries, such as those in western Europe (the topic of the discussion). Not so that Lightning is from Europe, that's not what I was insinuating - I meant that Lightning wants to keep the unique European identity intact, and thus the European culture. Any other country has the right to do this, however, not nearly as many countries are under threat of cultural death as the western European countries are. 

 

As for your comments about nationalists, what would happen if you kicked them out? Well it's quite simple, they'd make a new nation out of the one they came from.

 

So, what you are saying is Lightning is not European, but for some reason is interested in a foreign nation's "unique European identity" (which so happens to be predominately white and Christian) and is not a white supremacist? Lol, nice try. 

 

I seem to recall another "nationalist" who said something about preventing cultural death. The term he used was "volksgemeinshaft." Get with the vocab, son. 

 

"Well it's quite simple?" lol. See, this is just karma coming to bite all your worthless European asses. Following the end of the Holocaust, some English prick thought it was a good idea to have the Jews make a new nation. They couldn't carve it from Europe because the lines were already drawn and people liked their land. So they went down to the Middle East and thought it would be appropriate to "nationalise" some land for the Jews. That pissed off Arab nations. Arab nations fight several wars, but Israel kept getting propped up by western powers. With no way to defeat Israel or the West in a conventional conflict, radical extremists emerged. Munich Olympics, AirFrance, 9/11. You made this happen through your stupid ideas, and [email protected]#$ed the world with it. Sure, Bush helped you guys out when he thought it was a good idea to steamroll Iraq, but this is all your fault. All because you worthless Europeans can't get along with each other. 

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So, what you are saying is Lightning is not European, but for some reason is interested in a foreign nation's "unique European identity" (which so happens to be predominately white and Christian) and is not a white supremacist? Lol, nice try. 

 

Hitler reference 

 

"Well it's quite simple?" lol. See, this is just karma coming to bite all your worthless European asses. Following the end of the Holocaust, some English prick thought it was a good idea to have the Jews make a new nation. They couldn't carve it from Europe because the lines were already drawn and people liked their land. So they went down to the Middle East and thought it would be appropriate to "nationalise" some land for the Jews. That pissed off Arab nations. Arab nations fight several wars, but Israel kept getting propped up by western powers. With no way to defeat Israel or the West in a conventional conflict, radical extremists emerged. Munich Olympics, AirFrance, 9/11. You made this happen through your stupid ideas, and [email protected]#$ed the world with it. Sure, Bush helped you guys out when he thought it was a good idea to steamroll Iraq, but this is all your fault. All because you worthless Europeans can't get along with each other. 

 

Well, Lightning can speak for himself, but I sure know that I believe in the cultural (and therefore ethnic) independence. I'm not European, and I believe that every country should have a culture that is vehemently unique to that country. Without the separation of cultures, we cannot have unique cultures and worldviews. Instead, we would have a distinctly culture-less society by not guaranteeing the independence of cultures. It'd just turn into some hivemind.

 

"worthless Europeans" and apparently IM the cultural supremacist, holy moly where do I begin. For one, bringing Jews into the conversation came from nowhere, but I'll play your game. The Jews' homeland is in Israel and the Gaza strip as clearly defined by the Bible - there's no point in carving out a country that should never exist in the first place (looking at you, Albania). Yes, indeed, if the Jews were to go anywhere it would be where they have historically belonged - not Russia, not Poland, Israel. Anyway, I don't know why you're defending Arab aggression in the first place, sure it threw the Palestinians out for a loop but that's no reason for continual aggression against an otherwise peaceful nation. I mean, there was an alternate solution but no one seems to be happy with that one.

Edited by Solaire

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Silly you, ultranationalists/Nazis/white supremacists are pretty much the same thing, just white supremacists/ultranationalists lack a basic underlying economic strategy. Also, bullshit. WWI alone killed more people than all the pathetic Crusades ever did. The battle of [email protected]#$ Verdun killed more people than any religious conflict in history. That's also excluding WWII, which killed more people than any conflict in history. Nationalism has killed more people than religion. Period. Also, for someone who spouts Chinese references, I would imagine you would have thought of China as a multicultural empire that's been pretty successful in recent years. Sure, social tensions exist, but it hasn't led to the utter collapse of China as a state in the last few decades the communists came to power. 

 

Oh? Are you forgetting the cause of the Yugoslav wars? Nationalism, silly.

 

Not by all definitions from what I see but whatever as obviously you mean it negatively. Anyone who engages me honestly with the intent to learn what I believe quickly learns I'm no such things you claim me to be, in fact I regularly argue against such people openly without issue on RW's discord. I'm a good example why your type are the losers you are when it comes to these matters. When you shut down the reasonable people in a debate you only empower the ones who are far more extreme, give them cover in essence. 

Not subscribing to your globalisation nonsense ≠ not understanding economics. Sorry, pack that garbage in. 

 

Crusades? What? I said Islam killed far more people and you talk of the Crusades? You want to attribute all those deaths to Nationalism which is fine. I can attribute all the deaths for 1000+ years where Nationalism wasn't a thing to Islam too (where they were involved). Same for some other religions like Christianity. Oh and I'm not Christian so put away the assaults on it as it doesn't cut the mustard with me.

 

Oh boy, really trying to sell China as a positive when it comes to his multicultural garbage. China for a very long time has seen other surrounding cultures as their lesser's and that to civilise... other cultures should simply become Chinese. Due to invasions and such the policy differed a bit at times but the supremacy of their culture over others has always been left intact. Even today if you go to China you'll not find your loony nonsense in play. Look at Tibet where they are trying to destroy the Tibetan culture and render it a Chinese area. I find it hilarious you have actually tried to use China as an attack when they are so monstrous (far more than any here) in how they approach such things. You know not what you speak about quite clearly. Next you'll tell us ISIS is a symbol of religious tolerance. 

 

And again you only damage your own case. Yugoslavia was a mixture of cultures and people mashed together and kept in place by a strongman (those guys who hate so much). Once he died there was no way to keep it together and so they tore each other apart, not due to Nationalism but simply because this multiculturalism nonsense doesn't work. Not heeding this it seems like you want the same sort of thing to befall us, I mean it does seem you are a supporter of the EU whose wanted superstate would undoubtedly cause such terror and death. 

 

So, what you are saying is Lightning is not European, but for some reason is interested in a foreign nation's "unique European identity" (which so happens to be predominately white and Christian) and is not a white supremacist? Lol, nice try. 

 

I seem to recall another "nationalist" who said something about preventing cultural death. The term he used was "volksgemeinshaft." Get with the vocab, son. 

 

"Well it's quite simple?" lol. See, this is just karma coming to bite all your worthless European asses. Following the end of the Holocaust, some English prick thought it was a good idea to have the Jews make a new nation. They couldn't carve it from Europe because the lines were already drawn and people liked their land. So they went down to the Middle East and thought it would be appropriate to "nationalise" some land for the Jews. That pissed off Arab nations. Arab nations fight several wars, but Israel kept getting propped up by western powers. With no way to defeat Israel or the West in a conventional conflict, radical extremists emerged. Munich Olympics, AirFrance, 9/11. You made this happen through your stupid ideas, and [email protected]#$ed the world with it. Sure, Bush helped you guys out when he thought it was a good idea to steamroll Iraq, but this is all your fault. All because you worthless Europeans can't get along with each other.

 

I like that those who oppose me have given up to such an extent they now happily embarrass themselves with this sort of crap (you're not the first to try this here) instead of actually trying to use some brainpower.

 

Jk this was already discussed.

 

Reading above, do you guys believe every single cultural group should have its own territory? This would fracture Europe, the USA, China, Africa, basically everywhere into pieces.

 

To me that doesn't seem like "order". It seems like chaos. How would you agree on borders? How many local disputes would occur over territory?

 

And if you ever play Stellaris, you'd see how this idea is by very foundation xenophobic. Yeah blah blah I'm taking the concept from a game. But to me, it's a good game and did a good job of representing both xenophobes and xenophiles. I would consider myself a xenophile because I like learning from other cultures and developing my own unique personality and ideas based on many cultural influences. To me, that not only makes me more well rounded and empathetic, I think it brings me closer to the truth.

What? There are differing levels of cultures out there. If you broke it down to all the subcultures then yes you would a mess with small states all over the place. However unifying cultures that bring together many other subcultures together exist and those are what states are based on.

Edited by Rozalia

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Well, Lightning can speak for himself, but I sure know that I believe in the cultural (and therefore ethnic) independence. I'm not European, and I believe that every country should have a culture that is vehemently unique to that country. Without the separation of cultures, we cannot have unique cultures and worldviews. Instead, we would have a distinctly culture-less society by not guaranteeing the independence of cultures. It'd just turn into some hivemind.

 

"worthless Europeans" and apparently IM the cultural supremacist, holy moly where do I begin. For one, bringing Jews into the conversation came from nowhere, but I'll play your game. The Jews' homeland is in Israel and the Gaza strip as clearly defined by the Bible - there's no point in carving out a country that should never exist in the first place (looking at you, Albania). Yes, indeed, if the Jews were to go anywhere it would be where they have historically belonged - not Russia, not Poland, Israel. Anyway, I don't know why you're defending Arab aggression in the first place, sure it threw the Palestinians out for a loop but that's no reason for continual aggression against an otherwise peaceful nation. I mean, there was an alternate solution but no one seems to be happy with that one.

 

Culture-less is the words of a cultural purist, who finds himself questioning any foreign taint to be the end of his culture. If that were the case, then culture is already dead. 

 

I brought in Jews because you thought it was a good idea to start sprouting nations like poppy seeds without considering consequences. Jews just so happen to be a relatively recent subject, but we can go back to the Treaty of Versailles as well. Calling nation spawning a simple matter is what the Middle East mandates did to !@#$ up the region. But I digress, my point is globalization is here to stay and nationalism is stupidly dangerous. 

 

Not by all definitions from what I see but whatever as obviously you mean it negatively. Anyone who engages me honestly with the intent to learn what I believe quickly learns I'm no such things you claim me to be, in fact I regularly argue against such people openly without issue on RW's discord. I'm a good example why your type are the losers you are when it comes to these matters. When you shut down the reasonable people in a debate you only empower the ones who are far more extreme, give them cover in essence. 

Not subscribing to your globalisation nonsense ≠ not understanding economics. Sorry, pack that garbage in. 

 

Crusades? What? I said Islam killed far more people and you talk of the Crusades? You want to attribute all those deaths to Nationalism which is fine. I can attribute all the deaths for 1000+ years where Nationalism wasn't a thing to Islam too (where they were involved). Same for some other religions like Christianity. Oh and I'm not Christian so put away the assaults on it as it doesn't cut the mustard with me.

 

Oh boy, really trying to sell China as a positive when it comes to his multicultural garbage. China for a very long time has seen other surrounding cultures as their lesser's and that to civilise... other cultures should simply become Chinese. Due to invasions and such the policy differed a bit at times but the supremacy of their culture over others has always been left intact. Even today if you go to China you'll not find your loony nonsense in play. Look at Tibet where they are trying to destroy the Tibetan culture and render it a Chinese area. I find it hilarious you have actually tried to use China as an attack when they are so monstrous (far more than any here) in how they approach such things. You know not what you speak about quite clearly. Next you'll tell us ISIS is a symbol of religious tolerance. 

 

And again you only damage your own case. Yugoslavia was a mixture of cultures and people mashed together and kept in place by a strongman (those guys who hate so much). Once he died there was no way to keep it together and so they tore each other apart, not due to Nationalism but simply because this multiculturalism nonsense doesn't work. Not heeding this it seems like you want the same sort of thing to befall us, I mean it does seem you are a supporter of the EU whose wanted superstate would undoubtedly cause such terror and death. 

 

White nationalists/ultranationalists typically don't have the same economic agenda, Nazis do. Other than that, they are all the same in their desire for "cultural purity." But this is verbatim, I don't think you really care what I call you. 

 

I'm pretty sure there isn't any historical literature on counting the number of deaths attributed to Islam. But the three most catastrophic human-related events were WWII, Taiping Revolution, and WWI, all of them related to nationalism. To some degree, you can say that religion is part of national identity (though the concept of the nation state for Islam is arguably a post-WWII phenomenon), but to simply say that a single religion has killed more people than those events is silly. Combined, those three events have killed 170 million, excluding people killed through starvation due to those events. Are you seriously implying that Islam has killed more than 170 million people? Islam would have needed to kill an additional 50 million more people than the combined populations of the Roman and Han empires at their peak. Nationalism has killed more people than Islam. Period. 

 

And yet, China has its influences from the outside. Buddhism wasn't originally from China, and yet China still stands hundreds of years later. China was one of the first nations to accept Islam into its borders during the Tang dynasty, and yet still survives. You guys are delusional when you say some Muslims will destroy the west and its culture. 

 

Does multiculturalism not work because it's multiculturalism, or is it because nationalistic people don't want it to? You are suggesting that nationalism is a natural urge, despite the concept of a nation state is a social construct only recently conceived within the last 400 years. 

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Culture-less is the words of a cultural purist, who finds himself questioning any foreign taint to be the end of his culture. If that were the case, then culture is already dead. 

It seems you have defeated your own argument, or at least on the way to do it. 

Estimates put the number deaths related to Islam at over 200 million, a large amount is because of the slave trade in Africa and the invasions into India which killed enormous numbers of people. 

Edited by Lightning

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