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Seven Kingdoms Declaration of War


Mikey
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I mean don't get me wrong, I as an individual support this war (not speaking for all of TUE). Who cares about honor and fair fights? TEst was in no position to threaten you since they were weak. I say hit them while they're down for thinking they're important enough to matter.

 

Some people should know when to put their ego aside and realize they F'd up and are in no position to make demands. Good for you SK for showing them they're really not all that.

 

To be very fair, at the time this supposed threat was given, if it even can be called that, TEst was very much in every position to threat. The fight was always going to be tough but given their incompetence it could've been won actually. The splinters and TEst kind of disbanding changed everything obviously. 

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I find this sudden outbreak of "fair fights" and "what's the point in fighting, you can't keep someone down forever" to be rather absurd.  I know there are those out there who have this real hate boner for SK but really now can't you try and and relieve your pain in a less dishonest way?

There are no men like me, there is only me

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I can behind people worrying about fair fights and honor in many circumstances. From an OOC perspective I don't really care. People can play however they want, and act however they want in-game, and it wont effect my character judgement of the man/woman behind the monitor. But there is an RP element to these games and of course in-game we deal with the personas presented, which aren't always analogous to the people themselves, and it can be fun to get into the politics and morality etc from that perspective.

 

But there's a time and place for it. I think if we had just attacked them over nothing, or even went so far as to claim this a good fight or a good testament to our strength or some BS like that people would be very justified to call us out over it. But we're not doing this because we wanted a war and we're not claiming it to be some kind of even matchup or a good test (get it) and we're certainly not asking for any accolades or respect over it. We're just responding to what we see as very clear provocation.

 

Its possible, as some have suggested, TEst wouldn't have attacked us after their rebuild, I will admit. They could always decide not to follow through, they can do anything as a sovereign alliance. But I don't have access to the minds of their leaders or their gov forums. The only thing I have to go by are the words spelled out to me in writing by the leader of their alliance. I don't think its unfair to operate on the assumption that what we were told is true. I'm certainly not going to rely on our enemies simply deciding they dont feel like following through. We've learned the hard way (and probably shouldn't have needed to learn) that you can't just stick to your little corner and not pay attention to anything and hope for the best, especially when such an actionable and clear threat is given.

Edited by Mikey
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Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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I can behind people worrying about fair fights and honor in many circumstances. From an OOC perspective I don't really care. People can play however they want, and act however they want in-game, and it wont effect my character judgement of the man/woman behind the monitor. But there is an RP element to these games and of course in-game we deal with the personas presented, which aren't always analogous to the people themselves, and it can be fun to get into the politics and morality etc from that perspective.

 

But there's a time and place for it. I think if we had just attacked them over nothing, or even went so far as to claim this a good fight or a good testament to our strength or some BS like that people would be very justified to call us out over it. But we're not doing this because we wanted a war and we're not claiming it to be some kind of even matchup or a good test (get it) and we're certainly not asking for any accolades or respect over it. We're just responding to what we see as very clear provocation.

 

Its possible, as some have suggested, TEst wouldn't have attacked us after their rebuild, I will admit. They could always decide not to follow through, they can do anything as a sovereign alliance. But I don't have access to the minds of their leaders or their gov forums. The only thing I have to go by are the words spelled out to me in writing by the leader of their alliance. I don't think its unfair to operate on the assumption that what we were told is true. I'm certainly not going to rely on our enemies simply deciding they dont feel like following through. We've learned the hard way (and probably shouldn't have needed to learn) that you can't just stick to your little corner and not pay attention to anything and hope for the best, especially when such an actionable and clear threat is given.

No one is reading your posts and you're not convincing anyone.

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I can behind people worrying about fair fights and honor in many circumstances. From an OOC perspective I don't really care. People can play however they want, and act however they want in-game, and it wont effect my character judgement of the man/woman behind the monitor. But there is an RP element to these games and of course in-game we deal with the personas presented, which aren't always analogous to the people themselves, and it can be fun to get into the politics and morality etc from that perspective.

 

But there's a time and place for it. I think if we had just attacked them over nothing, or even went so far as to claim this a good fight or a good testament to our strength or some BS like that people would be very justified to call us out over it. But we're not doing this because we wanted a war and we're not claiming it to be some kind of even matchup or a good test (get it) and we're certainly not asking for any accolades or respect over it. We're just responding to what we see as very clear provocation.

 

Its possible, as some have suggested, TEst wouldn't have attacked us after their rebuild, I will admit. They could always decide not to follow through, they can do anything as a sovereign alliance. But I don't have access to the minds of their leaders or their gov forums. The only thing I have to go by are the words spelled out to me in writing by the leader of their alliance. I don't think its unfair to operate on the assumption that what we were told is true. I'm certainly not going to rely on our enemies simply deciding they dont feel like following through. We've learned the hard way (and probably shouldn't have needed to learn) that you can't just stick to your little corner and not pay attention to anything and hope for the best, especially when such an actionable and clear threat is given.

 

This still doesn't justify you saying your alliance was never a push over, after what TEst and Mensa & Co have done to you in past though.. A lot of issue stems from the fact that you're trying to now claim some sort of honour in not being pushed around when you took it so happily before. Sure, I will understand if it said we're trying not to be push-overs anymore, but this never thing is a bit of a stretch. 

 

Also, once again, I really don't understand, you say your reason behind attacking is because TEst said it might war you in future. How exactly will you warring them during already being rolled stop it? Obviously, this would have only worked if you guys wanted a permanent war on TEst til the end of time, otherwise, they could've always lived up to the threat, all the more. So my question is, did you want to war them permanently? What resolution did you expect?

 

Obviously the above scenario is moot since TEst was kind of disbanding anyway so just shows how out of touch with reality you guys are since TEst doing this was very public knowledge, or you just wanted to act tough on an alliance on it's way out in a desperate attempt to salvage your lost reputation. 

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I find this sudden outbreak of "fair fights" and "what's the point in fighting, you can't keep someone down forever" to be rather absurd. I know there are those out there who have this real hate boner for SK but really now can't you try and and relieve your pain in a less dishonest way?

Along with Obelisk, you will be flattened come February.

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No one is reading your posts and you're not convincing anyone.

 

You are :wub: I do everything for you baby don't you see?

 

This still doesn't justify you saying your alliance was never a push over, after what TEst and Mensa & Co have done to you in past though.. A lot of issue stems from the fact that you're trying to now claim some sort of honour in not being pushed around when you took it so happily before. Sure, I will understand if it said we're trying not to be push-overs anymore, but this never thing is a bit of a stretch. 

 

Also, once again, I really don't understand, you say your reason behind attacking is because TEst said it might war you in future. How exactly will you warring them during already being rolled stop it? Obviously, this would have only worked if you guys wanted a permanent war on TEst til the end of time, otherwise, they could've always lived up to the threat, all the more. So my question is, did you want to war them permanently? What resolution did you expect?

 

Obviously the above scenario is moot since TEst was kind of disbanding anyway so just shows how out of touch with reality you guys are since TEst doing this was very public knowledge, or you just wanted to act tough on an alliance on it's way out in a desperate attempt to salvage your lost reputation. 

 

There's no attempt to salvage anything here reputation wise or win any kind of "honor". They thought they could throw their weight around and threaten us over the resources, and they thought wrong. Thats what we are referring to along with a bit of rhetorical flourish in the DoW (unless you think we were also trying to give a history lesson when we opened with "SK is an old alliance" and the rest of the fluff).

 

And you are right, short of perma war we can't physically stop them from coming back in the future if they want. I'll concede that again as I have before. We certainly don't intend to perma occupy them. But we also don't intend to give in to their demands or just accept the slap in the face and bald faced threat that was their statement. You can argue it was just a 'statement' and there was no threat. But when he talks about how they'll want a war once they have rebuilt, and that war will be us unless we give them the money, its pretty easy to see why we'd take it as a threat.

 

This is an obviously imbalanced war and we neither expected nor hoped to gain any respect, external or internal, over this action. Its not about that. Its about responding to provocation. You tell us your going to hit us, then we're going to hit you. Or is that not legitimate grounds for war? It sucks to be hit under the circumstances they have but they made the bed and they get to lie in it. It wasn't a bad gamble and I'm sure he had reason to believe we would give in or otherwise do nothing at the least but in the end it backfired and now here we are.

 

Unless you think they should go throwing their weight around with no consequences? Its a game, war is a part of that, and they are well within their rights as a sovereign alliance to try and strong arm us if they want to, I'm not going to dictate to anyone how they should play. But we are also within our rights to respond to those provocations  and I'm honestly not sure why everyone is so surprised we are acting this way. If we went to TEst and tried to get...anything really, from them through threats of force I'd bet we'd be staring down the barrel of their guns within days. We're no different.

Edited by Mikey
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Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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dishonest is an interesting choice of words. why do you feel the current sk criticism is dishonest?

When I see people complaining that we are not having a "fair" fight I can't help but roll my eyes considering the history of conflicts in this game.  Like in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) before it people don't go for anything that is "fair" much of the time and the same people who are complaining here themselves are guilty of what they are accusing us of here now, Test included.  Same with the Valyria situation, they themselves have no issue with what occurred, we really were planning on jumping in yet still we "betrayed them" or some nonsense. 

 

People can criticize us of things like our foreign policy and how well we prepare and do in fights, such is reasonable toward any alliance even if I may not agree with the conclusions.  The above though is simply pathetic and its hypocritical on the face of it.

 

Along with Obelisk, you will be flattened come February.

Well at least you are open about your desires. :P

There are no men like me, there is only me

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People can criticize us of things like our foreign policy and how well we prepare and do in fights, such is reasonable toward any alliance even if I may not agree with the conclusions.  The above though is simply pathetic and its hypocritical on the face of it.

 

 

 

oh ok - i see what you meant now. i thought you meant dishonest in the literal sense that critics of you guys were saying it isn't a fair fight when it actually is.

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You are :wub: I do everything for you baby don't you see?

 

 

There's no attempt to salvage anything here reputation wise or win any kind of "honor". They thought they could throw their weight around and threaten us over the resources, and they thought wrong. Thats what we are referring to along with a bit of rhetorical flourish in the DoW (unless you think we were also trying to give a history lesson when we opened with "SK is an old alliance" and the rest of the fluff).

 

And you are right, short of perma war we can't physically stop them from coming back in the future if they want. I'll concede that again as I have before. We certainly don't intend to perma occupy them. But we also don't intend to give in to their demands or just accept the slap in the face and bald faced threat that was their statement. You can argue it was just a 'statement' and there was no threat. But when he talks about how they'll want a war once they have rebuilt, and that war will be us unless we give them the money, its pretty easy to see why we'd take it as a threat.

 

This is an obviously imbalanced war and we neither expected nor hoped to gain any respect, external or internal, over this action. Its not about that. Its about responding to provocation. You tell us your going to hit us, then we're going to hit you. Or is that not legitimate grounds for war? It sucks to be hit under the circumstances they have but they made the bed and they get to lie in it. It wasn't a bad gamble and I'm sure he had reason to believe we would give in or otherwise do nothing at the least but in the end it backfired and now here we are.

 

Unless you think they should go throwing their weight around with no consequences? Its a game, war is a part of that, and they are well within their rights as a sovereign alliance to try and strong arm us if they want to, I'm not going to dictate to anyone how they should play. But we are also within our rights to respond to those provocations  and I'm honestly not sure why everyone is so surprised we are acting this way. If we went to TEst and tried to get...anything really, from them through threats of force I'd bet we'd be staring down the barrel of their guns within days. We're no different.

 

Once again, maybe you didn't read what I said, but my issue against your current CB of never being push overs was that it's all you did in the past few months. TEst wiped the floor with your ally and walked without any issues. Mensa & Co did the same of your entire sphere and walked off. Then TEst threatened you, and you didn't act. Then members in TEst started leaving to other alliances and forming splinters, while in public saying TEst was kind of disbanding and ending. Suddenly, you guys discovered courage and honour? It's a tough sell mate. Just say you saw an easy opportunity and wanted to take it. 

 

I'm really not against you guys warring, war as much as you want. Just don't use silly reasons or justifications for it. 

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When I see people complaining that we are not having a "fair" fight I can't help but roll my eyes considering the history of conflicts in this game.  Like in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) before it people don't go for anything that is "fair" much of the time and the same people who are complaining here themselves are guilty of what they are accusing us of here now, Test included.  Same with the Valyria situation, they themselves have no issue with what occurred, we really were planning on jumping in yet still we "betrayed them" or some nonsense. 

 

People can criticize us of things like our foreign policy and how well we prepare and do in fights, such is reasonable toward any alliance even if I may not agree with the conclusions.  The above though is simply pathetic and its hypocritical on the face of it.

 

Well at least you are open about your desires. :P

 

For what it's worth, I don't think any former or current TEst is talking about fair fighting or anything fair really. If they are, they really shouldn't. 

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Once again, maybe you didn't read what I said, but my issue against your current CB of never being push overs was that it's all you did in the past few months. TEst wiped the floor with your ally and walked without any issues. Mensa & Co did the same of your entire sphere and walked off. Then TEst threatened you, and you didn't act. Then members in TEst started leaving to other alliances and forming splinters, while in public saying TEst was kind of disbanding and ending. Suddenly, you guys discovered courage and honour? It's a tough sell mate. Just say you saw an easy opportunity and wanted to take it. 

 

I'm really not against you guys warring, war as much as you want. Just don't use silly reasons or justifications for it. 

 

We've never given into threats of force before. Yeah Mensa kicked our shit in, no denying that. I'm not meaning to claim, with that phrasing, that we don't lose wars (sometimes quite badly). Poor choice of words perhaps Its a largely rhetorical flourish that also holds true in that we have never given in to demands and threats. We've lost wars, yes. But this isn't about claiming to be elite fighters or that we are somehow better fighters than TEst, which we aren't. Its a point that then, as now, you can make demands of us if you wish but dont expect us to accede.

 

The valyria thing is barely worth responding to at this point. TEst reached peace less than 48 hours after going in. In that period our score was climbing, our top member deserted to avoid any fighting (ironic given the war ended before that :P ) and allies and even Kylo have confirmed that we were in planning with Valyrias other allies and prepping for a large counter of our own to try and turn the war around. We could have rushed in day 1 with no real blitz or plan or military (it was a failing on our part that we were unprepared for an immediate fight, I acknowledge that). But we learned that lesson the hard way with Valyria in the Silent War where we both did the same to t$ and got demolished and accomplished nothing. We'd rather wait a few days to coordinate a larger offensive to try and turn the war around and actually relieve the pressure on them then rush in a symbolic gesture that accomplishes nothing and leaves them at TEsts mercy.

 

As for the splinters, it was bad timing I suppose, but I don't think it really plays into the "fairness" of the war. TEst was already at 0 mil and it was never a fair war. never claimed it to be. Never claimed that this represented some courage or honor on our part either (some non SK people have, in what seems to me a very tongue-in-cheek way). They through their weight around, it got thrown back. Thats it.

Edited by Mikey

Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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however I elected to drop out and opt for peace(provided that it was a valid peace offer), because Polaris wasn't militerizing as fast as necessary for us to pull off the plan. They were supposed to anchor and Lordaeron had a higher military at the time, it wasn't going to work.

 

Anyway, I talked to Bluebear and Prefontaine and got peace, the terms weren't that bad and I felt comfortable not going in knowing what they were. They weren't humiliating nor would they seriously hurt Valyria and after talking with Bluebear we finished the war and obtained peace.

 

Pretty sure you slated us to NW for accepting peace as it made us "look weak" and tried to get them to drop us, but we'll skip that part ay?

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We've never given into threats of force before. Yeah Mensa kicked our shit in, no denying that. I'm not meaning to claim, with that phrasing, that we don't lose wars (sometimes quite badly). Poor choice of words perhaps Its a largely rhetorical flourish that also holds true in that we have never given in to demands and threats. We've lost wars, yes. But this isn't about claiming to be elite fighters or that we are somehow better fighters than TEst, which we aren't. Its a point that then, as now, you can make demands of us if you wish but dont expect us to accede.

 

The valyria thing is barely worth responding to at this point. TEst reached peace less than 48 hours after going in. In that period our score was climbing, our top member deserted to avoid any fighting (ironic given the war ended before that :P ) and allies and even Kylo have confirmed that we were in planning with Valyrias other allies and prepping for a large counter of our own to try and turn the war around. We could have rushed in day 1 with no real blitz or plan or military (it was a failing on our part that we were unprepared for an immediate fight, I acknowledge that). But we learned that lesson the hard way with Valyria in the Silent War where we both did the same to t$ and got demolished and accomplished nothing. We'd rather wait a few days to coordinate a larger offensive to try and turn the war around and actually relieve the pressure on them then rush in a symbolic gesture that accomplishes nothing and leaves them at TEsts mercy.

 

As for the splinters, it was bad timing I suppose, but I don't think it really plays into the "fairness" of the war. TEst was already at 0 mil and it was never a fair war. never claimed it to be. Never claimed that this represented some courage or honor on our part either (some non SK people have, in what seems to me a very tongue-in-cheek way). They through their weight around, it got thrown back. Thats it.

 

So I guess it all comes down to Valyria's terrible handling of affairs which gave SK a bad name?

 

Also, when I said the honour part, I meant your war dec. going all never been a push over type stuff. 

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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I don't get why its interesting that SK didn't react belligerently to Mensa or someone else but did to TEst in this instance. TEst made what sound like threats (but to others may be banter) from a position of weakness. That's usually bad strategy, and it backfired in this case. If I were in SK's position I might've made the same decision, even if I interpreted the "splintering" to be smoke and mirrors. 

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Pretty sure you slated us to NW for accepting peace as it made us "look weak" and tried to get them to drop us, but we'll skip that part ay?

It made you look weak and they should've dropped you. The reason they've been rolled 3 times already is because your lack of ability to protect them.

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I don't get why its interesting that SK didn't react belligerently to Mensa or someone else but did to TEst in this instance. TEst made what sound like threats (but to others may be banter) from a position of weakness. That's usually bad strategy, and it backfired in this case. If I were in SK's position I might've made the same decision, even if I interpreted the "splintering" to be smoke and mirrors. 

 

You don't come from the same history they come though. The fact SK decided to do this given the time is funny and how they suddenly remembered about not wanting to be a push over. All it took was 90% of TEst leaving. 

 

It would be a different story if Mensa had never come to aid of an ally for example and let them get humiliated, so the history + what they're saying now is just hard to add up. 

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So I guess it all comes down to Valyria's terrible handling of affairs which gave SK a bad name?

 

Also, when I said the honour part, I meant your war dec. going all never been a push over type stuff. 

 

Eh I mean I don't blame them for going to the table and accepting peace. Even after we and the others entered they would have continued to take losses (win or lose you tend to take a lot so even the best case scenario for them after our entrance is costly) and they were going through some internal reforms that made the whole thing more shaky. In the end I suppose it did make us look bad as some people interpreted it as an unwillingness on their allies to enter but I'm willing to trade that for their well being if its what was thought best. Some of the ex-SK in TEst could probably confirm that if anybody really cared, since they have access to the Farewell forum where our last departure admitted to leaving to avoid having to fight TEst, as we had been prepping :P Funny thing was the war entered before our blitz, and the alliance he joined got raided by TEst (him included) almost immediately after.

 

As for the second bit I'll concede that then. It was poor phrasing on my part and to be clear then this is not about honor or demonstrating our prowess or anything. Taken as such its a fair point to criticize it and I certainly wouldn't disagree with that line of reasoning. The intent was just to say "we were given a demand, and we refused as we usually do. So now its war." Gotta have something a bit more eloquent for a scroll though.

 

It made you look weak and they should've dropped you.

 

But you were the one who was trying to arrange that peace :S

Edited by Mikey

Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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You don't come from the same history they come though. The fact SK decided to do this given the time is funny and how they suddenly remembered about not wanting to be a push over. All it took was 90% of TEst leaving. 

 

It would be a different story if Mensa had never come to aid of an ally for example and let them get humiliated, so the history + what they're saying now is just hard to add up. 

 

Their decision is opportunistic; I don't think being opportunistic about these decisions is out of character for SK at all. 

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