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Post war mechanics discussion


Prefontaine
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Lets get the big one out of the way first.

 

  • FORTIFY It does make combat interesting in fights where you're both under 30 resistance (or close) and jockying trying to get the win. It's downside is that it makes wars unwinnable if the target is active at least once a day. Yes they take lots of infra damage but they spend virtually no resources while protecting all of their resources to rebuild/sell post war. In turn the attacker is spending lots of upkeep/attacking just to kill decreasingly valuable infra with no pay off at the end.

 

Solutions have been talked about for this one in several places, I'm a fan of having X resistance max you can gain during 1 war. 50-75 seems like a solid number range. Other options include diminishing returns, having to perform other actions inbetween fortifying, or not gaining the full resistance bonus while blockaded/ground sup/air sup is against you.  

 

  • MASS LOOTING WITH 1 SHIP This one is an easy fix. Just buy some ships. The new module lets people getting beaten sneak in ITs on players who lack a military type. I wasn't really able to do much against people with 50+ ships and more than my double buys. All of my looting really happened for people who had less than 40 ships or a lacking airforce. Players will just have to adjust to having a few dry docks.
  • PLANES ARE STILL OP I've mentioned it another thread but the problem is planes are the only unit that can kill units outside of their theater of war (ships kill ships, ground kill ground, air kills all). Balance this and planes stop being OP.
  • BEIGE TIMER The war rollout was supposed to address being able to come back from war, the new beiging mechanic makes it harder to do this, nations can stagger wars (which does promote some tactics) but the 2 days isn't long enough to get back on your feet if someone keeps you at war for half that then beiges you with getting 3 days. That's enough for max soldiers and buying just enough military to get obliterated the moment you leave biege costing you way more than just sitting there taking a beating.
  • BANK "IMMORTALITY" Granted TEst had a slip up there but there's still the "should banks be virtually unlootable" problem. 
  • NUKES/MISSILES Nukes used to be a weapon of the loser you could nuke people while getting grinded down from air units. Now nuking cuts into your fortification spam. So if fortification immortality isn't changed, this makes nukes less of a defensive weapon in that regard. Not a huge issue but where nukes and missiles stand in the new meta needs to be tweaked I think. 

 

Any other issues in the current war system we need to add to this list? Besides previous issues with the war system, most of those are known, but lets talk about the current system changes

 

EDIT: Added items.

 

  • ACTIVE/EXPIRED WARS filter your active wars to the top spots in your war history. With all those resistance bars all over the place if you're fighting a lot of wars over a few weeks it can get annoying to keep track of active and expired wars especially if you have a war still going from 4 days ago with about half a dozen expired ones above it. 
Edited by Prefontaine
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Don't forget with the Mass Looting comes the Mass Infra Damage too.  I've seen 11% Infra Damage to ALL Cities from beiging.  That's crazy if you think about it.

 

Yeah, but I think with people getting used to ships being actually important now the low unit wins will only be seen against inactives or people who refuse to buy a unit type. It's one of things that is easy to fix in the current system and doesn't really need a mechanic change IMO. 

 

With fortify, just make it add less resistance, like 5-7 or whatever number works.

Still need to fix the loot bank problem.

 

There are several solutions for fixing fortify.

 

There's yet to be a really good solution for fixing the bank thing. 

 

I'm more looking to compile a list of problems people discovered using the war system in the recent war.

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https://politicsandwar.com/nation/war/timeline/war=181432

With all naval battles (which seem to be the most resistance damage for their cost) if someone only fortifies, you can't win. I wish I had evidence of this, but that war started with someone doing the 1 ship looting strategy

 

66 MAPs per war = 22 Fortifies = 320 total resistance.

66 MAPs per war = 16 Naval Battles = Best case 224 resistance lost. 

 

Results in 96 final resistance. You can basically start spamming fortify at almost any point and not get beiged unless you have 0 MAPs and they have 12 MAPs when you start.

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The 1 ship thing seems to be a bit lopsided, otherwise I'm still testing the new system out so far and its made warring far more interesting. 

 

theres also the 3 air attack thing. and the 3000 soldier attack thing.

 

people dont typically bring these up because the game has adjusted the gameplay to address these glaring holes of national security in these 2 areas (ground and air), so why should sea be any different? if youre going to adjust one you need to adjust all of them right? same concept

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66 MAPs per war = 22 Fortifies = 320 total resistance.

66 MAPs per war = 16 Naval Battles = Best case 224 resistance lost. 

 

Results in 96 final resistance. You can basically start spamming fortify at almost any point and not get beiged unless you have 0 MAPs and they have 12 MAPs when you start.

 

heres my take on fortification. i agree its entirely abusable at this point and encourages not fighting back as once you realize that you arent going to win the war  you have an instant get out of jail free card. i also think that a fortification that mathematically eliminates the possibility of skipping beige largely defeats the point of fortification. so i came up with this:

 

many people suggested we do a declining fortification system and i think there is good meat to that argument. what we could do is we make fortification a function of the turns left on the war. it could be as simple as:

x = Turns Left in War * 0.15
y = round(x) to nearest whole number
z = the max of (y,5)

z = amount of fortification points during any war

what this would result is a war fortification system that looks like this

Turns	Fort
60	9
59	9
58	9
57	9
56	8
55	8
54	8
53	8
52	8
51	8
50	8
49	7
48	7
47	7
46	7
45	7
44	7
43	6
42	6
41	6
40	6
39	6
38	6
37	6
36	5
35	5
34	5
33	5
32	5
31	5
30	5
29	5
28	5
27	5
26	5
25	5
24	5
23	5
22	5
21	5
20	5
19	5
18	5
17	5
16	5
15	5
14	5
13	5
12	5
11	5
10	5
9	5
8	5
7	5
6	5
5	5
4	5
3	5
2	5
1	5

this would accomplish several things.

 

1) the first being that it would still allow a nation to fortify enough to prevent beige, but they would need to do it IMMEDIATELY. this means they are presented with a very difficult choice right away - do they fight or do they flight. starting at the onset of the war (actually up to the first 4 turns of the war) if they did nothing but fortify and didn't waste any maps they could fortify 129 points of resistance. 14 ship attacks can do 224 points worth of damage. 100 starting resistance + 129 fortification resistance eclipses this number. however, since this is a function based on turns remaining it brings me to point number 2

 

2) it rewards activity. people shouldn't be able to log in once a day fortify their 12 maps and be safe. if someone were to go a long period of inactivity (like 14+ hours), they would drop their fortifications to a lower resistance value. the 129r is not the floor, it is the ceiling. someone could miss a few turns, their 8 point fortifications are now worth 6. this brings it down to 121r added - ships could beat this and is dangerously close to a ground only victory (at 220r removed). one thing to note is that this 224 points of resistance damaged from ship has 2 remaining wasted maps. this brings me to my 3rd point

 

3) that if the opponent is on blitzkrieg they are now not immune. at least at first. 14 ship attacks = 224 + 1 ground attack (from the added map the defender gets) = 234 resistance removed. if this effectively removes blitzkrieg as a strategic value perhaps this should get a buff of sorts to incentivize people going to this.

 

however, and what i feel to be most importantly, is what it does on the OFFENSIVE side of things. (Basically what i did this war). under the system it is possible to declare on someone, fire off 2 nukes, and fortify the rest of your map to safety. you guys can check my math on it but i looked at a lot of scenarios for these 'cheap shot' tactics. lets look at what it would do with my proposed system

 

4) if the opponent wanted to fire off nukes safely the most efficient time for them would be to fire them late when fortifications are worth less. 1 nuke would equal 20r. so if i were to declare war on kylo ren (uniting orbis for the first time in the largest simultaneous celebration every witnessed), i could fortify until 13 map are left for 109 total. this would allow me to fire a nuke at the very last turn. kylo could do ground attacks and get victory on the 21st ground attack. this would happen with 3 turns left. it effectively eliminates cheap shot nukes if you are active. if you are inactive you run the risk of getting struck - which again i think is fair. activity should be rewarded, but this is probably a more rare situation. point 5 would be much more common

 

5) 'inactive' raids now carry risk. what i did was really effective, but also very cheap. i had no infrastructure to lose so i really had no risk. under the current system i could declare war an an 'inactive' nation (4 days was usually my target). i would then hit them with 1 ship to try and get a victory in a couple days. if they came back on i would offer peace. if they didn't accept peace i would just fortify until the war expired. with this proposed system, lets say i raid an 'inactive nation' . i do 2 ship attacks bringing me down to 0 map with 58 turns left. the next time i could fortify would be 55 turns. i would only be able to get 107 fortification resistance. the opponent that gets the email alert and comes back to the game would easily be able to use their ships / ground forces to counter this raid and beige the opponent (if they remain active).

 

one more important bit that i like with this system

 

6) i kept saying ships and ground as the are the most efficient at taking out resistance. if you were to use aircraft you would only remove 192 resistance from your opponent. this would give your opponent more time to choose the 'fortify only' option to skip beige if their opponent is spamming high powered airstrikes the entire time. you would retain the damage that they can do but also retain the ability that the opponent can choose to fight back (with ships if their opponent doesn't have it), potentially double buy and win the war through conventional means now that their opponent cannot fortify spam, or just take it on the chin and get max infra damage with a fortify spam option. note that this wouldn't address the issue of what i did during this previous war (fortify most of my defensive wars the entire time and fight only my raids) - but that is what point 5 is for.

 

this system would put a heightened importance on the early stages of a war. it would allow for some maneuverability at the back end of the war with 5 point fortifications which are nothing to scoff at. it wouldn't be a drastic change from the current system. people could still turtle if they wish (which at a certain point dissuades a perma roll for profit - probably good for the game), but they arent necessarily immune to beige based on their previous actions. it would bring it together as a whole where your decision and actions on turns 1-12 impact what you do on turns 48 through 60 in a big way. the current system is like professional basketball where the first half of the season more or less doesn't matter

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the top it shows 60-57 as 9 fortify, does that mean people would get +9 resistance the first few turns fortifying?

 

yes. if i were to declare a war on you and immediately fortify twice with my starting 6 maps; because there are 60 turns left i would add 18 resistance to my number

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I like your idea Seabasstion. It is a little complicated, which makes it hard for a new player to figure out, but I think that can be solved by adding more information (a la tooltips, etc.) in-game, so players have to rely less on other people telling them how to play optimally.

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Is there a bug? Report It | Not understanding game mechanics? Ask About It | Got a good idea? Suggest It

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The fact that every won war ends in the opponent just endlessly pressing "fortify" until it expires after 5 days is horrifically boring. The fact that's impossible to steal money or treasures unless your opponent has stopped playing the game is horrifically boring.

 

We sit around all day watching enemies get huge bank transfers, weak targets leave the protection of their alliances, treasures spawn in nations that shouldn't be able to defend them, and our blood starts pumping for a few seconds until we remember that you can't take anything from anyone else who still plays this game anymore. 

 

Fortify is the most important thing that should to be fixed, above all else and as fast as possible, in my opinion. And I know it's an obvious point that everyone makes but Alex should know that we all hate it and I hope he has a fortify fix already made and ready to roll out the instant this war ends. It's hard to talk about what else to do with the war system until we know how the Fortify mechanic is going to be changed.

Edited by Woot
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I think fortify is an interesting idea but it has really limited utility other than increasing resistance.

 

Fortify should be renamed to "Prepare Defenses", with four options:

 

"Deploy SAM Batteries" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking enemy aircraft (every enemy plane rolls to survive), costs 10 gas, alu and mun per city, is exhausted after 2 air attacks

"Lay Sea Mines" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking enemy ship (every enemy ship rolls to survive), costs 10 steel and mun per city, is exhausted after 2 sea attacks

"Plant Anti-Tank Mines" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking tank (every enemy tank rolls to survive), costs 10 mun per city, is exhausted after 2 ground attacks

"Plant Anti-Personnel Mines" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking soldier (every enemy soldier rolls to survive), costs 10 mun per city, is exhausted after 2 ground attacks

 

You can stack up to 3 of each type so you can deal up to 30% kill chance if you've had enough time to pile on SAM sites for instance.  A really lucky roll of SAM batteries could take out the whole attacking air force if the RNG gods hate them enough.

 

This would give more tools in the defender's toolbox, where a piled on defender could work to grind down their attackers a little bit, enough that relief forces have an easier time.

Edited by Ogaden
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"Plant Anti-Personnel Mines" increase resistance by 5, 15% chance to destroy every attacking soldier (every enemy soldier rolls to survive), costs 10 mun per city, is exhausted after 2 ground attacks

I don't code, but that sounds like a huge toll on the server. 

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I don't code, but that sounds like a huge toll on the server.

looping 100,000 times takes about 20 milliseconds.

 

You could break it down I guess and have divisions of 1000 run into minefields, roll if they got hit by the minefield, roll for damage.

 

$casualties = 0;

for ($s = 0; $s<$soldierNum/1000; $s++) {

    if(rand(0,99) < 15) { //hit by mines

        $casualties += rand(0,1000);

    }

}

Edited by Ogaden
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looping 100,000 times takes about 20 milliseconds.

 

You could break it down I guess and have divisions of 1000 run into minefields, roll if they got hit by the minefield, roll for damage.

 

$casualties = 0;

for ($s = 0; $s<$soldierNum/1000; $s++) {

    if(rand(0,99) < 15) { //hit by mines

        $casualties += rand(0,1000);

    }

}

Interesting. I wish I knew how to code something. 

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Don't forget with the Mass Looting comes the Mass Infra Damage too.  I've seen 11% Infra Damage to ALL Cities from beiging.  That's crazy if you think about it.

 

The big problem is it defeats the purpose of some of the changes and defies the principle that seems most likely to improve the war module. Tanks were changed to reduce the cost, for the purpose of making war more palatable and thus more common. But the infra damage change adds a huge expense to defeat; the only reason it wasn't a massively disruptive change is because fortify means that only inactives or idiots get beiged. 

 

But the principle we've been debating here for months is that no war is boring, wars don't happen more often because the damage and disadvantage is so severe, so we can make more war (and more fun for more people) by reducing the pain of war. Alex has at times rejected this principle and at other times endorsed it, but changes that go in both directions result in these weird contradictions. 

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I think fortify is an interesting idea but it has really limited utility other than increasing resistance.

 

Fortify should be renamed to "Prepare Defenses", with four options:

 

"Deploy SAM Batteries" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking enemy aircraft (every enemy plane rolls to survive), costs 10 gas, alu and mun per city, is exhausted after 2 air attacks

"Lay Sea Mines" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking enemy ship (every enemy ship rolls to survive), costs 10 steel and mun per city, is exhausted after 2 sea attacks

"Plant Anti-Tank Mines" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking tank (every enemy tank rolls to survive), costs 10 gas, steel and mun per city, is exhausted after 2 ground attacks

"Plant Anti-Personnel Mines" increase resistance by 5, 10% chance to destroy every attacking soldier (every enemy soldier rolls to survive), costs 10 mun per city, is exhausted after 2 ground attacks

 

You can stack up to 3 of each type so you can deal up to 30% kill chance if you've had enough time to pile on SAM sites for instance.  A really lucky roll of SAM batteries could take out the whole attacking air force if the RNG gods hate them enough.

 

This would give more tools in the defender's toolbox, where a piled on defender could work to grind down their attackers a little bit, enough that relief forces have an easier time.

 

Best "fix fortify" suggestion I've seen so far!

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So Arrgh finally starting to think defensively?

Also having seen Alex with %s (beige was said to 10% destroying infra, have been spotted to be from 9to11%, other war mostly superiority %) I have a feeling that if such fortify would be made we'd look at 100% change of killing all forces at least on 2 types of attacks with-in a day or 2.    

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think guys are getting carried away here.

Fortify option is a hindrance for raiding active nations, but does not prevent raiding inactive nations. This to me is a good thing. You should not be able to raid someone if they are active and can stay defensive.

 

In a damage battle, fortify is a negative option to have, coz Ships and planes can do massive damage to infra which might be way more to the 10% the nation might loose on getting defeated. Apart from that, you can also keep looting the enemy with ground attacks. The only drawback is that you are not able to loot their resources, bank and treasures if any, but in a damage battle that is not your primary target.

 

So in short, this change is good for Alliance wars, but bad for raiding and looting active nations.

Rest stays all the same. So All in All a good change.

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