War is Chaos

[hadesflames]

No Buorhann, it isn't. In Silent war they had major advantage and failed. Face it, it's not possible to take you down

This. Even in the Silent war, we still needed a little more to do it. Paperless probably would have pushed us over the edge to do it, but they didn't commit. Now your side is stronger and the ex-paracov...errr..."side" is weaker. Paragon is no more. Cov is in ruins. NPO and Acadia are all that's really left of that side. Even if GoT sphere were good, they're not enough. Even if paperless (TEst/RW/Arrgh) wanted to help, Pre has already made it more than clear that he doesn't want to. It's not going to happen. Your side will never again face another actual challenge until it's willing to break up. That doesn't mean you *have* to break up, nor is it your responsibility to make the game interesting again if you don't want to. Am telling you to? No. Do w\e you want. But you can't have a challenge and stick together. That's no longer possible.

Edited December 29, 2016 by hadesflames

[greatkitteh]

This. Even in the Silent war, we still needed a little more to do it. Paperless probably would have pushed us over the edge to do it, but they didn't commit. Now your side is stronger and the ex-paracov...errr..."side" is weaker. Paragon is no more. Cov is in ruins. NPO and Acadia are all that's really left of that side. Even if GoT sphere were good, they're not enough. Even if paperless (TEst/RW/Arrgh) wanted to help, Pre has already made it more than clear that he doesn't want to. It's not going to happen. Your side will never again face another actual challenge until it's willing to break up. That doesn't mean you *have* to break up, nor is it your responsibility to make the game interesting again if you don't want to. Am telling you to? No. Do w\e you want. But you can't have a challenge and stick together. That's no longer possible.

HBE actually never signed an alliance on our "side"..

[Buorhann]

No Buorhann, it isn't. In Silent war they had major advantage and failed. Face it, it's not possible to take you down

 

>"We have major advantage, we shouldn't lose!"

>loses

>wah, Syndi/OOsphere too powerful

 

 

I won't lie.  We have some solid leaders, but we've also been telling the other side to work on their organization and communication skills.

 

Ask Rose's government how different we are compared to their past allies.  Pretty sure they'll say there's a big difference.

 

 

It is entirely possible to 'take us down'.  You guys just refuse to figure out how.

[Caecus]

Been there, done that. Find it boring. I have more fun rocking the little trio of alliances we've got working together currently so I'll keep that going even if it results in the occasion 15 or so alliances dog piling us because we're scary. 

 

 

Where you went wrong was possibly your rather high-profile actions post Silent War. When you flaunt your power around like a second bloc, people think of you as a second bloc and not a "little trio" of paperless alliances. It's not that TEst is scary (though I think that is true). It's that TEst has deviated from the long-standing tradition it had of pitting two blocs against each other and retaining political advantages from the side using a paperless system of backdoor channeling, into what is more likened to a traditional bloc. I seem to recall writing something about this a couple months ago. Not to gloat, but....

 

https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/blog/203/entry-798-the-final-nail-in-the-coffinfuture-of-test/

 

I told you so. 

[jaguar]

>"We have major advantage, we shouldn't lose!"

>loses

>wah, Syndi/OOsphere too powerful

 

 

I won't lie.  We have some solid leaders, but we've also been telling the other side to work on their organization and communication skills.

 

Ask Rose's government how different we are compared to their past allies.  Pretty sure they'll say there's a big difference.

 

 

It is entirely possible to 'take us down'.  You guys just refuse to figure out how.

Been there, done that, didn't work. You are unbeatable especially now when they got outnumbered by large margin in one thing they had superior power which was manpower.

[Buorhann]

>"been there, done that, didn't work"

 

Ok.

[Sisyphus]

Pack it in guys, we won the entire game.

 

We just need a serious invasion alliance right now, I guess?

[TheNG]

>"We have major advantage, we shouldn't lose!"

>loses

>wah, Syndi/OOsphere too powerful

 

 

I won't lie.  We have some solid leaders, but we've also been telling the other side to work on their organization and communication skills.

 

Ask Rose's government how different we are compared to their past allies.  Pretty sure they'll say there's a big difference.

 

 

It is entirely possible to 'take us down'.  You guys just refuse to figure out how.

 

I'm sorry Buorhann, but this line of reasoning you keep defending is patently ridiculous.

Is it possible to "take Syndisphere down"? Sure it is. However, the conditions no longer exist to do so within the current system of alliances, and why that is has been explained plenty of times, even a few posts up in this thread.

 

Now, let's take an example. Say that I am the leader of a recently defeated non-Syndisphere alliance. (It's a stretch I know, but bear with me. )

​So, after rebuilding, I look around at how things lie. And let me tell you, I would see that there is absolutely no reason for me to try and defeat Syndisphere. 

Sure, I can improve the coordination and organization within my alliance and with my similarly beaten down allies, but that won't do jack when the bored half of Syndisphere comes looking for an easy fight and the rest bandwagon in. (Just like this war with paperless.)

Sure, I can try to make some new allies and get a group together, but it'll be done with the knowledge that it'll never be enough to stand a chance against Syndisphere, and it'll just be getting a group together to be rolled in a couple months when we stick our heads out a bit. (See GoT). All making allies does is make it easier for TKR or Mensa to justify rolling us. Even if I did make some allies to oppose Syndisphere, then you guys would just accuse us of "perpetuating the stale dynamic" as usual and use it to justify sighing more treaties, consolidating further, and all then bringing the hammer down in a couple months.

 

So, in the end, why waste my time doing any of that and trying to defeat or match Syndisphere when it's ultimately a fruitless endeavor in the current environment?

Besides, why should I be obligated to try and destroy Syndisphere? It's not my job to create challenges for you guys, make the game more interesting, or try to fix what Syndisphere's consolidation and treaty-whoring has done.

 

The irony is that Paracovenant and it's various remnants are always accused of "lazy FA" and all that. Paracovenant was factitious and contentious at best, but that's what made it interesting to work within. Leaders and FA people worked incredibly hard, and it was fun, varied, interesting for exactly those reasons of disunity. You actually had debates, disagreements, compromise, all that. It didn't always work out (and imploded in the end, of course), but I'll be damned if it wasn't good fun. In contrast, Syndisphere is apparently a giant blob of treaties and good feelings where nobody disagrees or has to make any effort in communication or debate while everyone plays follow the leader and goes around beating up smaller alliances, then posts patronizing self-help guides on the OWF to try to get others to make this game interesting for them.

 

So, if you guys want an interesting, varied game, then stop complaining how everyone else is bad and "really could defeat us" and do something about it yourselves. Because I can tell you guys that beating up everyone else who might and then whining about how borings things are isn't going to liven up anyone's life.

[Caecus]

Does that mean papered alliances are superior to paperless? 

[jaguar]

Awesome post pigeon.

[Buorhann]

So, if you guys want an interesting, varied game, then stop complaining how everyone else is bad and "really could defeat us" and do something about it yourselves. Because I can tell you guys that beating up everyone else who might and then whining about how borings things are isn't going to liven up anyone's life.

 

I certainly don't recall saying anything recent about how boring the game is (I mean, it is, but I certainly didn't open up this debate with that reasoning).  I honestly don't care what you guys do in the end, that's entirely y'alls decision and I hope to god that our side doesn't cater to the whole "We must break up because the other side want us to" spiel.

 

We've certainly been down this road before and we made it a goal to develop into a sphere that could stand on it's own.  Obviously we went above and beyond our expectations.

 

I guess the question is:  What is your goal?  Clearly if the goal isn't to compete against us, then of course it can't be done.

 

 

 

Also, in regards to the "lazy FA" statement.  I wouldn't say "lazy FA", I'd say horrible FA.

 

>UPN loses half it's members, and those members signed with Syndi/OOsphere aligned alliances   (I guess this is more of a Internal Affair rather than a Foreign one)

>VE and Rose break up, VE goes paperless

>Nuclear Sphere ended up in odds with Paperless Bloc

>Valyria Sphere pisses off Rose after Rose signed with Mensa

 

etc.

 

I can list many more examples of absolutely dogshit FA from our potential rivals.  

 

If I was a coalition leader for Covenant, I'd do my !@#$ best to maintain ties with every alliance not Syndisphere, and work out a plan with Paperless Bloc.  The Silent War almost did it, but that ended with Paperless Bloc leaving after a round on Pantheon (Which after seeing the reports of UPN deal with them, that was done poorly - very poorly) and very little activity and organization outside of UPN/NPO/Alpha/Fark/Acadia.

 

Even Ogaden from Arrgh pointed out a key difference in that war.  When Mensa got bailed out from the Alpha/Fark blitz, Mensa immediately built back up while VE/Rose/UPN nations that were attacked by Mensa did not build up after Alpha/Fark blitzed.

 

 

The Silent War clearly showed us that you guys had a STRONG opportunity, but failed to follow through.  Whether it was handling FA issues poorly or mismanaging coordination efforts.  You guys are your own worst enemy.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Buorhann

[Buorhann]

I should get on a radio show and talk about this.  Or hell, just put it in a blog. 

[Roquentin]

I certainly don't recall saying anything recent about how boring the game is (I mean, it is, but I certainly didn't open up this debate with that reasoning).  I honestly don't care what you guys do in the end, that's entirely y'alls decision and I hope to god that our side doesn't cater to the whole "We must break up because the other side want us to" spiel.

 

We've certainly been down this road before and we made it a goal to develop into a sphere that could stand on it's own.  Obviously we went above and beyond our expectations.

 

I guess the question is:  What is your goal?  Clearly if the goal isn't to compete against us, then of course it can't be done.

 

 

 

Also, in regards to the "lazy FA" statement.  I wouldn't say "lazy FA", I'd say horrible FA.

 

>UPN loses half it's members, and those members signed with Syndi/OOsphere aligned alliances   (I guess this is more of a Internal Affair rather than a Foreign one)

>VE and Rose break up, VE goes paperless

>Nuclear Sphere ended up in odds with Paperless Bloc

>Valyria Sphere pisses off Rose after Rose signed with Mensa

 

etc.

 

I can list many more examples of absolutely dogshit FA from our potential rivals.  

 

If I was a coalition leader for Covenant, I'd do my !@#$ best to maintain ties with every alliance not Syndisphere, and work out a plan with Paperless Bloc.  The Silent War almost did it, but that ended with Paperless Bloc leaving after a round on Pantheon (Which after seeing the reports of UPN deal with them, that was done poorly - very poorly) and very little activity and organization outside of UPN/NPO/Alpha/Fark/Acadia.

 

Even Ogaden from Arrgh pointed out a key difference in that war.  When Mensa got bailed out from the Alpha/Fark blitz, Mensa immediately built back up while VE/Rose/UPN nations that were attacked by Mensa did not build up after Alpha/Fark blitzed.

 

 

The Silent War clearly showed us that you guys had a STRONG opportunity, but failed to follow through.  Whether it was handling FA issues poorly or mismanaging coordination efforts.  You guys are your own worst enemy.

 

You're talking about a period with a lot more FA fluidity. The rigidity of the current alliance system didn't exist. There were cross ties everywhere and there were people to work with that prioritized fighting an enemy. You're referring to maybe about 3 months at most of relative isolation.

 

I think you have a serious misconception in terms of who is willing to work with others. You said a Covenant leader should be trying to maintain relations with everyone else. Alliances specifically have tried to distance themselves from them.  Paragon breaking off and then, when you got dropped by SK, they also dropped us because they didn't want ties to an established sphere.  The SK/Valyria minisphere also didn't want the associations. The typical reaction when a war hasn't worked on our side has been for alliances to seek out individual accommodations or make a minisphere hoping it will induce a split on the Syndisphere. These ideas have been out there since the treaty offer from tS to UPN and the leak from Rose's forums. The reason trying to make it work as an adhoc coalition didn't work is  because it would have actually required more peace time cooperation for everyone to be on the same level of readiness. It wasn't a "wink wink" split. It was a real split and we had to put humpty dumpty back together and the signalling along with the time it took to start  the war gave it away and allowed you to catch up. Enough people saw fighting Syndisphere as impossible and went their own way that those who had seen it as possible lost the support needed over time and it's all gone now.

 

 

Here's the thing with paperless; they largely didn't see you as someone they wanted to fight. That's why they were fine having fights with other spheres since they didn't have fighting the big one as a goal. Pre has affinities for certain alliances in Syndisphere and even if it seems unrequited, it doesn't seem to change. TEst and co just wanted to fight Pantheon and that was it. He's said it repeatedly that he had no beef with Syndisphere. If he did or if he simply had had the ambition of being #1 again, then yeah, we could have rolled with that and we would have probably been fine with him taking the credit.  I'm not tearing at TEst just it never seemed they had a common interest.

 

The tactical criticism was based on them  not double buying and they couldn't have double bought because Alpha didn't enter near update.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Roquentin

[James XVI]

101 days when spy ops started, I think 104-106 when the warring actually started.

 

Source for those who want to criticize my math:

http://www.tickcounter.com/countup/1473807600000/europe-london/ywdhms/2093003B5998000000FF0000/Time_Since_tS/TKR_could_have_declared

Totally forgot that existed <3 Edited December 29, 2016 by James XVI

[Hooves]

Tweet

It was love at first sight

[Buorhann]

I think you have a serious misconception in terms of who is willing to work with others. You said a Covenant leader should be trying to maintain relations with everyone else. Alliances specifically have tried to distance themselves from them.  Paragon breaking off and then, when you got dropped by SK, they also dropped us because they didn't want ties to an established sphere.

And why is that?

 

Here's the thing with paperless; they largely didn't see you as someone they wanted to fight. That's why they were fine having fights with other spheres since they didn't have fighting the big one as a goal.

I can tell you right now that the paperless alliances would have no problem fighting us, and I'm 100% positive we're going to get some annoying raids now from our recent action of fighting them. The problem is that we don't actively look to piss off people. Sure, some of us troll others, but overall - we were not butting heads with paperless alliances. Well, not to the extent that others outside our friendly sphere has. Just look at the Alpha/TEst situation that happened recently and look at how they talk to each other. Obviously there's some issues there.

 

The tactical criticism was based on them  not double buying and they couldn't have double bought because Alpha didn't enter near update.

Did you learn something?!

[durmij]

I should get on a radio show and talk about this.  Or hell, just put it in a blog. 

Lets do something in the new year. Sort of like "Git Gud" the audio book.

[Tywin Lannister]

Lets do something in the new year. Sort of like "Git Gud" the audio book.

 

So naturally you won't be making it then! 

[Beatrix]

Syndisphere won with inferior numbers and superior gameplay.

 

You can do the same.

[Caecus]

so, how did this salt fest happen? Can anyone fill me in? I was on vacation and enjoying my holidays 

[durmij]

So naturally you won't be making it then!

You're so adorably salty. Reminds me of this.

 

[Tywin Lannister]

You're so adorably salty. Reminds me of this.

 

 

That's a nice troll reply but I was serious. Rose really can't be going around making git gud tapes until they prove themselves. It's how it is. Mensa and Co are welcome to make one. 

[jaguar]

Lets do something in the new year. Sort of like "Git Gud" the audio book.

[Ungawa Jones]

Pack it in guys, we won the entire game.

 

We just need a serious invasion alliance right now, I guess?

We need another Avansies.

[vonnorman]

We need people to leave syndisphere/oo and create a new alliance called "Normanland Theme Park" that is dedicated to sex and war against whatever sphere is in power