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Justin076
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I'm sorry, I'm not the best with these treaties. Does a MDP become void if you're in a war? .-. 

 

I'm not exactly paying attention to the conflict but if Polaris is already mostly engaged in fighting Arrgh I'm not sure why Valyria would ask them to come in before they cleared up their slots.

Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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I'm not exactly paying attention to the conflict but if Polaris is already mostly engaged in fighting Arrgh I'm not sure why Valyria would ask them to come in before they cleared up their slots.

 

Like I said, I'm a layman in these treaty matters but the Valyria-Polaris MDP states agreement over "3. Should either alliance be attacked, Valyria and Polaris agree that they are obligated to defend each other." 

 

I assume obligated means required or compelled to do so, but I might be wrong.

 

Also, I'm not sure why it is okay for Polaris to fight in an optional defense but let their MD level partners hanging dry. On second thought, it won't be the first time so that's that. 

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Like I said, I'm a layman in these treaty matters but the Valyria-Polaris MDP states agreement over "3. Should either alliance be attacked, Valyria and Polaris agree that they are obligated to defend each other." 

 

I assume obligated means required or compelled to do so, but I might be wrong.

 

Also, I'm not sure why it is okay for Polaris to fight in an optional defense but let their MD level partners hanging dry. On second thought, it won't be the first time so that's that. 

 

Lol for someone who doesn't like treaties you seem to care an awful lot about them being followed to the e-letter regardless of the will of the parties involved. Even if we want to go e-court on the treaty (god knows why we would) I'm sure its commonly accepted that both parties to a contract can amend it as they see fit if they both agree to it.

 

Anyway we don't have the same relationship with Polaris so I have no idea what they will or won't do here. Maybe they will indeed come in. But if they did it would probably be when they manage to get a few squads to win a few current wars or peace them out so they can actually launch wars and coordinate with the valyrians who need help.

Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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Lol for someone who doesn't like treaties you seem to care an awful lot about them being followed to the e-letter regardless of the will of the parties involved. Even if we want to go e-court on the treaty (god knows why we would) I'm sure its commonly accepted that both parties to a contract can amend it as they see fit if they both agree to it.

 

Anyway we don't have the same relationship with Polaris so I have no idea what they will or won't do here. Maybe they will indeed come in. But if they did it would probably be when they manage to get a few squads to win a few current wars or peace them out so they can actually launch wars and coordinate with the valyrians who need help.

 

When did I say anything against treaties? All I said was I had limited knowledge. Why must you assume Mikey? 

 

All I'm getting at the moment is that people sign treaties promising to defend, and when the time comes, they amend it as it suits their needs and avoid them. Why sign in the first place I wonder?

 

Kudos to Valyria for actually sticking up for SK then instead of "amending" it as required, something both SK and Polaris have already done once, and perhaps a potential second time for Polaris.   

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When did I say anything against treaties? All I said was I had limited knowledge. Why must you assume Mikey? 

 

All I'm getting at the moment is that people sign treaties promising to defend, and when the time comes, they amend it as it suits their needs and avoid them. Why sign in the first place I wonder?

 

Kudos to Valyria for actually sticking up for SK then instead of "amending" it as required, something both SK and Polaris have already done once, and perhaps a potential second time for Polaris.   

 

Fair enough, I saw the arrgh flag and just made assumptions :P As for the rest, I dunno I guess we just have strategic disagreements. On our end we've been trying to coordinate together and go in with a bit more mil and when those being attacked are ready for double buys. The Valryia war somehow ended at the two day marker before anything could be done. This one will no doubt last much longer, and if Polaris do come in I would expect it to be when they can free up offensive slots which are currently tied down by Arrgh and whoever else they are fighting, not immediately when they can't do anything more than post a DoW. Or maybe they will, I mean I'm not FA and we're not super close with them anyway and I've sure as hell been wrong before :P I guess time will tell.

Archduke Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, Warden of the South, Breaker of Forums.

 

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Fair enough, I saw the arrgh flag and just made assumptions :P As for the rest, I dunno I guess we just have strategic disagreements. On our end we've been trying to coordinate together and go in with a bit more mil and when those being attacked are ready for double buys. The Valryia war somehow ended at the two day marker before anything could be done. This one will no doubt last much longer, and if Polaris do come in I would expect it to be when they can free up offensive slots which are currently tied down by Arrgh and whoever else they are fighting, not immediately when they can't do anything more than post a DoW. Or maybe they will, I mean I'm not FA and we're not super close with them anyway and I've sure as hell been wrong before :P I guess time will tell.

 

Time will tell indeed if Polaris honours their word or not! 

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Like I said, I'm a layman in these treaty matters but the Valyria-Polaris MDP states agreement over "3. Should either alliance be attacked, Valyria and Polaris agree that they are obligated to defend each other." 

 

I assume obligated means required or compelled to do so, but I might be wrong.

 

Also, I'm not sure why it is okay for Polaris to fight in an optional defense but let their MD level partners hanging dry. On second thought, it won't be the first time so that's that. 

 

Ah, as a recent layman myself, I can tell you that MDPs are negotiable ad hoc and not always entirely binding. There have been many instances in PnW's history where such a thing has happened. For example, Steve's War when Alpha didn't call in her allies. Or Pan, during the Silent War. 

 

Were we to apply your standard to every alliance that has signed an MDP and for one reason or another not entered, then literally every major alliance has committed some form of dodging over a "required" agreement. With the exception of the paperless faction, ofc. 

It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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Lol for someone who doesn't like treaties you seem to care an awful lot about them being followed to the e-letter regardless of the will of the parties involved.

I'll just mention communism vs capitalism here. See communism developed as a critique to capitalism. So by very definitions, communists have to know both capitalism and communism, otherwise they can't really be called communists. Same thing can be applyed here, paperless, even tough it started as default state, developed as a philosophy after papered became mainstream as a critique and direct opposition to papered. The reason Arrgh stands for paperless is exactly since those papers should be binding regardless of the fact if they are at war or not. MDP means mutual defense pact. It's not ODP wich stands for optional defense pact. Why are you even signing a MDP if you're treating it as ODP? If you're goal is to intimidate potential opponent into thinking you'd have their back you might have as well signed a MDAP and treated it as ODP. And exactly becasue those treatys are binding regardless of your currrent state and because a lot of treatys are not being followed and broken on regular basis is why Arrgh is against papered and for paperless.

Ah, as a recent layman myself, I can tell you that MDPs are negotiable ad hoc and not always entirely binding. There have been many instances in PnW's history where such a thing has happened. For example, Steve's War when Alpha didn't call in her allies. Or Pan, during the Silent War. 

 

Were we to apply your standard to every alliance that has signed an MDP and for one reason or another not entered, then literally every major alliance has committed some form of dodging over a "required" agreement. With the exception of the paperless faction, ofc. 

 

Alright Steve didn't call them, that's ok, they should ahve joined anyway, but as I understand Steve explicitly asked them NOT to join so that one's different. And for Pan I was under impression they were indeed asking for help, since I participated in negotiations with Pan, but their help couldn't come since they were tied down with other urgent affairs and were in no way able to come to their aid. (and if I'm not mistaken, Pantehon was arming up to help them in those affairs before they were inerupted by us). And before you say that it's same for Polaris right now, not quite, Polaris atm is winning agaisnt us and hasn't had the loses that Pantheon's allys ahd when Pantheon called them to their aid. And my last point, if you can change and negotiate MDPs on the go, what's the difference betwen a MDP and ODP, and also does this apply to higer level treatys as well?

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Everytime I see people elawyering about MDP vs ODP vs Paperless... I stop and wonder if the are actually serious about it.... help me out do people actually take this seriously? ??

Yes, Polar said they take it very seriously. Just helping them be accountable.

Edited by Jacob Moore
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My greatest fear in regards to this DoW is that since we already voted on best DoW's for 2016, and it's still technically 2016 and not 2017, that this DoW will never receive the fame or the credit that it's due.

 

We need to make sure we include this DoW on next year's voting for best DoW.

 

Pretty sure it will win.

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My greatest fear in regards to this DoW is that since we already voted on best DoW's for 2016, and it's still technically 2016 and not 2017, that this DoW will never receive the fame or the credit that it's due.

 

We need to make sure we include this DoW on next year's voting for best DoW.

 

Pretty sure it will win.

 

Excuse me Kafir?

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Everytime I see people elawyering about MDP vs ODP vs Paperless... I stop and wonder if the are actually serious about it.... help me out do people actually take this seriously? ??

Amusing, isn't it.  :popcorn: Want some popcorn?

In terms of your question,  it's taken oh so serious when one is on the side of a conflict where one would benefit in some fashion if followed through.  If not, then it is not. 

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