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12/16/2016 - Coming Winter Update


Alex
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Wouldn't have mattered though. As Phiney mentioned, you over-estimate the Opsec and things get out. Everyone was just relaxed as Sheepy had talked about disabling the war system so people were relaxed due to that. Like I said, many weren't even around because of things being disabled. As much as I hate to repeat it, it is poor Alex's mistake here and that's about it. 

 

 

I'm sorry, but nothing changes the fact that we conducted this spy blitz because we thought we could trust the admin to keep his word, otherwise we wouldn't have targeted enemy spies. That I'm sure of. And now that a retroactive measure was taken, we got completely screwed. Again, I don't wanna add to the drama. But objectively, we did something (a spy blitz) based on an aspect of the game we believed wouldn't change and now that it did, only our side was harmed. No matter how you look at it.

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Odds are infact in the favor of TKR/Mensa-sphere. This doesn't mean that Sheepy didn't heavily distort them in your favor. (even if you're still the underdog)

 

I accept the nuke destroyed/decom argument, but sadly this isn't nearly as important as having a wide initial strike.

 

Sure. We can confirm when you're coming with full accuracy and in % terms you could say that is a heavy distortion. However doubling tiny odds would still result in an irrelevance. I think its quite overstated just how much this has helped which is what my issue with what you said was.

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I'm sorry, but nothing changes the fact that we conducted this spy blitz because we thought we could trust the admin to keep his word, otherwise we wouldn't have targeted enemy spies. That I'm sure of. And now that a retroactive measure was taken, we got completely screwed. Again, I don't wanna add to the drama. But objectively, we did something (a spy blitz) based on an aspect of the game we believed wouldn't change and now that it did, only our side was harmed. No matter how you look at it.

 

Your spy blitz was still based on a loophole, and I never stated definitively that the changes I had planned were set in stone. You can see for yourself in my post. You took advantage of something I had not anticipated - here I am reacting to that in a way that I think better balances things going forward. I cannot punish you as you did not break any rules, I acknowledge that it was my fault for not foreseeing what could happen, but I never promised that I would not correct as best I could for my mistakes.

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You guys are vastly overestimated your opsec. It was known before you started spying. 'giving away this advantage' isn't a thing.

 

In one thread you claim that this was a hidden, from admin, fact.  In another you claim that it was known.  Make up your mind.

 

Sheepy, you should have just not made this entire update.  You were told this and ignored it.  Now you have screwed over a decent chunk of your player base.  Whatever, we needed the challenge and the tears make it sweeter.

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You all keep getting this one point wrong.

 

There were TWO mistakes.

 

The FIRST mistake was to leave spy ops open. We were all equal victims of that mistake.

 

The SECOND mistake was to delay the spy ops portion of the rollout. ONLY those who took strategic advantage of the situation are victims of the second mistake.

 

The second mistake is FAR WORSE than the first.

 

Hmm, I'm sleepy so forgive me if I don't make sense and haven't thought this through much but the people who took strategic advantage tried to exploit the first mistake, rather than letting Alex know. I think NPO tried to do some similar exploitation and paid the price too. I guess it was you took the risk of exploiting something which wasn't intended by Alex, and it didn't work out as you guys intended either. I think it's coming down to a what you guys intended vs what Alex intended.

 

Either way though, at the end it rolls into a we've the same system prevailing which was around when the spies were taken out, and the main talk of loss of surprise isn't really a big issue here if looked at subjectively.  

 

In one thread you claim that this was a hidden, from admin, fact.  In another you claim that it was known.  Make up your mind.

 

Sheepy, you should have just not made this entire update.  You were told this and ignored it.  Now you have screwed over a decent chunk of your player base.  Whatever, we needed the challenge and the tears make it sweeter.

 

The claim was on spies. We didn't anticipate the spy thing. We knew things were cooking in TKR but due to system being disabled relaxation, never thought of it from that perspective.  

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Your spy blitz was still based on a loophole, and I never stated definitively that the changes I had planned were set in stone. You can see for yourself in my post. You took advantage of something I had not anticipated - here I am reacting to that in a way that I think better balances things going forward. I cannot punish you as you did not break any rules, I acknowledge that it was my fault for not foreseeing what could happen, but I never promised that I would not correct as best I could for my mistakes.

 

 

Well, in practice, you're punishing one side in detriment of the other. If we can't trust the admin to know what he's doing and to stick by his initial plan, then it's up to us to anticipate your likelihood to change something due to it being a possible loophole?

 

Sheepy, you're a good guy and I wish you good luck with this game, but sometimes I think you don't realize the impact your decisions have on the game. Especially this one, where you're effectively punishing one side - our war strategy began with this spy blitz and you're screwing us over. 

Edited by Insert Name Here
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In one thread you claim that this was a hidden, from admin, fact.  In another you claim that it was known.  Make up your mind.

 

Sheepy, you should have just not made this entire update.  You were told this and ignored it.  Now you have screwed over a decent chunk of your player base.  Whatever, we needed the challenge and the tears make it sweeter.

 

To quote my favourite film, 'Are you mental?' 

 

I said you hid from the admin the fact that spying was still possible and exploitable whilst the war system was disabled.

 

I said you and everyone else on Orbis has poor opsec and we knew about the intended attack before the spy attacks begin. This is to do with politics and obviously something Alex would never know about. 

 

Where on earth are these two statements related to the point that one contradicts the other? 

 

Good effort though. 

 

edit: sidepoint, to the few that are suddenly saying they trusted Alex not to change from what he has said, where have you been and what have you done with yourselves.

Edited by Phiney
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I hate to pull the e-lawyer thing here but really, here are a few Alex quotes from this very thread. 

 

 

Hey all, I just wanted to make a post quick detailing some of the nuances of the incoming update.

 

First, I just want to mention that one complication in the original rollout of this update is that I'll be traveling the 19th and the 20th, which means I very likely won't be pushing out the update on the 20th. It will very likely be close to the end of the 20th - early 21st server time, but I won't make any promises or guarantee any exact time. The reason for not giving any exact details is that it has come to my attention that there may be some strategizing related to how the update is rolled out, and I'd like to disrupt as much of that as possible.

 

(AND) 

 

I hope this post will help to keep everyone in the loop, and clear up any confusion about the incoming update. This update was not developed with the use of any closed group, but rather is the product of my tinkering with consultation from various players in-game, on Discord, and on a radio-show I was featured on. It has been available for everyone to test and offer feedback on for a couple of weeks now. I will still be tweaking and testing things up until actual implementation, so it's not too late to check things out yourself and offer feedback.

 

If you would like to offer feedback, please direct it in the discussion thread for the changes here: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/17625-possible-game-updates-currently-being-tested/

 

He promised disruption and already said he would be tweaking things before actually implemented. 

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If this update hadn't been rolled, then perhaps all of TEst members would have 0 slots and their millitary virtually destroyed in one success blitz. Mensa wanted to exchange the element of surprise to use the new mechanics, and instead isn't going to get to do either.

 

For the record, not Mensa's idea. 

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Even though it was my mistake that allowed you to take advantage of this situation, I'm still letting you mostly keep that advantage.

 

I think this is true only at face value. Sure, the side who blitzed and received a 'spy advantage' will retain a 'spy advantage'. However, spies have completely different roles in the new and old systems, and so the spy advantage will be completely different.

 

Spies in the new system are extremely valuable in regular warfare. They provide significant supplementary damage alongside a regular core of forces. Ops still deal little enough damage that high levels of coordination is required in order to edge out an opponent and snowball an advantage. With teamwork and planning, spies become an x-factor that can edge out city (recruitment) advantages.

 

Spies in the old system are nuke killers. They deal insignificant damage to conventional troops for their cost, and cannot be utilized in high enough numbers (3 ops per day) to even gain an advantage by sinking impractical amounts of money into it. It counters point-and-click nuke turreting by slightly more coordinated pointing-and-clicking.

 

As you can see, SyndiHQ would not have put work into a clandestine offensive to gain the old system's spy advantage. We may have surprised a lot of people if not for the decision to spy blitz instead besides Prefontaine-the-All-Knowing. Alex, please do not equate some avoided nuke damage to a conventional warfare edge.

01:58:39 <BeowulftheSecond> Belisarius of The Byzantine Empire has sent your nation $0.00, 0.00 food, 0.00 coal, 0.00 oil, 0.00 uranium, 0.00 lead, 0.00 iron, 0.00 bauxite, 0.00 gasoline, 0.00 munitions, 1,000.00 steel, and 0.00 aluminum from the alliance bank of Rose.
01:58:46 <BeowulftheSecond> someone please explain 
01:59:12 <%Belisarius> sleep deprivatin is a &#33;@#&#036; @_@
01:59:14 â€” %Belisarius shrugs
01:59:18 <BeowulftheSecond> we're at WAR. WE ARE BURNING EACH OTHER'S PIXELS

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Alex, am I reading that last post in the other thread right? You completely and utterly !@#$ed us and gave us the worst outcome imaginable, an outcome worse than what anyone complaining in the thread was expecting. 

 

Put the new spy system in, and then give them all their spies back and don't refund us a cent. It would be ten times better than letting us keep a spy advantage and then making that spy advantage next to worthless.

 

Re-posting this since it was ignored/not addressed.

 

Alex, what you're doing right now is way way worse for our sphere than what Pre himself even wanted. You seem to think it's a compromise for both side, but this hurts us even more than what Prefontaine was trying to advocate for in the first place. Honestly, giving TEST/Arrgh/Roz the ability to buy back all their spies for free in one day, and having us waste all that cash, would be preferable to keeping spies useless during the blitz.

 

But I'm willing to play this war on hardmode for a change I suppose.

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High Priest of Dio

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I think this is true only at face value. Sure, the side who blitzed and received a 'spy advantage' will retain a 'spy advantage'. However, spies have completely different roles in the new and old systems, and so the spy advantage will be completely different.

 

Spies in the new system are extremely valuable in regular warfare. They provide significant supplementary damage alongside a regular core of forces. Ops still deal little enough damage that high levels of coordination is required in order to edge out an opponent and snowball an advantage. With teamwork and planning, spies become an x-factor that can edge out city (recruitment) advantages.

 

Spies in the old system are nuke killers. They deal insignificant damage to conventional troops for their cost, and cannot be utilized in high enough numbers (3 ops per day) to even gain an advantage by sinking impractical amounts of money into it. It counters point-and-click nuke turreting by slightly more coordinated pointing-and-clicking.

 

As you can see, SyndiHQ would not have put work into a clandestine offensive to gain the old system's spy advantage. We may have surprised a lot of people if not for the decision to spy blitz instead besides Prefontaine-the-All-Knowing. Alex, please do not equate some avoided nuke damage to a conventional warfare edge.

You're completely ignoring that spies in the new system have this role because they kill other spies with 30% less efficiency. You guys basically exploited Alex foegetting about disabling spies to get the best of both systems.

 

That is the point Alex is making.

Edited by Phiney
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As demonstrated above though, Alex doesn't owe anything to the people who exploited the mistake. I don't want to sound harsh but he did very clearly say he will try to disrupt any strategic planning to that and that update was not yet final. 

 

He's disrupted it now and as he already said, the upcoming change is a bit different.

 

So yes, while the first mistake is of Alex's lack of foresight, there is not much of a second mistake since people knowingly took the risk and wanted to find a loop hole against something Alex promised to disrupt. I believe he succeeded in disrupting it. 

 

Perhaps this serves as good precedent for exploitation in upcoming updates for future in a way, since Alex just might make some mistake again.. 

Edited by Tywin Lannister
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You're completely ignoring that spies in the new system have this role because they kill other spies with 30% less efficiency. You guys basically exploited Alex foegetting about disabling spies to get the best of both systems.

 

That is the point Alex is making.

 

 

30% less efficiency doesn't really matter when it comes to spy ops, tbh. Whether or not that change was added, the result would have been the same.

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High Priest of Dio

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You're completely ignoring that spies in the new system have this role because they kill other spies with 30% less efficiency. You guys basically exploited Alex foegetting about disabling spies to get the best of both systems.

 

That is the point Alex is making.

 

 

And the point we're making is that no one stopped you guys from doing the same. Let's not kid ourselves here - if you guys had done what we did, no one would hear a peep from you, and that would be fair enough. Because it wouldn't be your fault and the other players had the dame options at their disposal.

 

I'm ttired of using the word "retroactive"... :P But retroactive measures such as this one betray the confidence of the players who trusted the admin to not change the rules mid-way. I believe he cares about that because, even if it doesn't look like it, I still believe he's a good admin.

Edited by Insert Name Here
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You're completely ignoring that spies in the new system have this role because they kill other spies with 30% less efficiency. You guys basically exploited Alex foegetting about disabling spies to get the best of both systems.

 

That is the point Alex is making.

 

Apologies, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. No, I believe the spies in the new system have this role because of the direct (and therefore intentional) buff to conventional damage by spies. From one military improvement's worth of units to something like 5% of units.

 

I'm also rather sure that Alex meant to make spies have a more prominent role conventionally, because it is a direct buff lol

 

EDIT: What do you mean by best of both systems? We don't want both the old and new systems, we just want one

DOUBLE EDIT: Oh you mean that we were utilizing the fact that spy casualties are still up now, and will be taken down a notch later. Well that's not the primary concern in any of this, although it did help our side a little bit you guys would still have been zero spied even with 30% less casualties

Edited by Beowulf the Second

01:58:39 <BeowulftheSecond> Belisarius of The Byzantine Empire has sent your nation $0.00, 0.00 food, 0.00 coal, 0.00 oil, 0.00 uranium, 0.00 lead, 0.00 iron, 0.00 bauxite, 0.00 gasoline, 0.00 munitions, 1,000.00 steel, and 0.00 aluminum from the alliance bank of Rose.
01:58:46 <BeowulftheSecond> someone please explain 
01:59:12 <%Belisarius> sleep deprivatin is a &#33;@#&#036; @_@
01:59:14 â€” %Belisarius shrugs
01:59:18 <BeowulftheSecond> we're at WAR. WE ARE BURNING EACH OTHER'S PIXELS

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And the point we're making is that no one stopped you guys from doing the same. Let's not kid ourselves here - if you guys had done what we did, no one would hear a peep from you - and that would be fair enough. Because it wouldn't be your fault and the other players had the dame options at their disposal.

 

I'm ttired of using the word "retroactive"... :P But retroactive measures such as this one betray the confidence of the players who trusted the admin to not change the rules mid-way. I believe he cares about that because, even if it doesn't look like it, I still believe he's a good admin.

I can't be arsed, just read what Tywin wrote.

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Apologies, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. No, I believe the spies in the new system have this role because of the direct (and therefore intentional) buff to conventional damage by spies. From one military improvement's worth of units to something like 10% of units.

 

I'm also rather sure that Alex meant to make spies have a more prominent role conventionally, because it is a direct buff lol

 

He did, but he also wanted it to take longer to get there. He has clearly stated what was done was against his intentions in this update. Thats all I'm pointing out, is it really that hard to understand?

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30% less efficiency doesn't really matter when it comes to spy ops, tbh. Whether or not that change was added, the result would have been the same.

 

Honestly man, look at the numbers, I've spent my entire raiding career figuring out who can win against me/alliance I'm in and who can't, trust me, you guys can with all the numbers if you all do teamwork and coordination right. I really don't think you guys need additional support of mechanics to do it and it's really not hard mode. 

 

 

And the point we're making is that no one stopped you guys from doing the same. Let's not kid ourselves here - if you guys had done what we did, no one would hear a peep from you, and that would be fair enough. Because it wouldn't be your fault and the other players had the dame options at their disposal.

 

I'm ttired of using the word "retroactive"... :P But retroactive measures such as this one betray the confidence of the players who trusted the admin to not change the rules mid-way. I believe he cares about that because, even if it doesn't look like it, I still believe he's a good admin.

 

I don't know if you have my posts on block or just don't want to read it man. He's not betraying any confidence, if anything, he is living up to his promise of disrupting any strategizing in regards to the update, that's exactly what you guys did. If you look at it, betrayal happens if he doesn't live up to his promise. 

 

He already said that the changes weren't final. He promised to disrupt. You guys risked it and tried to disrupt by strategizing about it, and he lived up to the promise. How can you blame him for that? 

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As demonstrated above though, Alex doesn't owe anything to the people who exploited the mistake. I don't want to sound harsh but he did very clearly say he will try to disrupt any strategic planning to that and that update was not yet final. 

 

He's disrupted it now and as he already said, the upcoming change is a bit different.

 

So yes, while the first mistake is of Alex's lack of foresight, there is not much of a second mistake since people knowingly took the risk and wanted to find a loop hole against something Alex promised to disrupt. I believe he succeeded in disrupting it. 

 

Perhaps this serves as good precedent for exploitation in upcoming updates for future in a way, since Alex just might make some mistake again.. 

 

 

Yes he does, because people aren't forced to predict when the admin will change the rules mid-way and, most importantly, certain people adopted a certain course of action based on the fact that they thought they could expect some stability from the admin.

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Honestly man, look at the numbers, I've spent my entire raiding career figuring out who can win against me/alliance I'm in and who can't, trust me, you guys can with all the numbers if you all do teamwork and coordination right. I really don't think you guys need additional support of mechanics to do it and it's really not hard mode. 

 

 

 

I don't know if you have my posts on block or just don't want to read it man. He's not betraying any confidence, if anything, he is living up to his promise of disrupting any strategizing in regards to the update, that's exactly what you guys did. If you look at it, betrayal happens if he doesn't live up to his promise. 

 

He already said that the changes weren't final. He promised to disrupt. You guys risked it and tried to disrupt by strategizing about it, and he lived up to the promise. How can you blame him for that? 

 

 

I can blame him because the admin is supposed to know what he's doing. And then, after a portion of the players takes a gamble based on the assumption that they can trust the admin to not change the rules, those players are getting royally screwed. But hey, if you guys want that advantage, then no one can blame you. I don't think there's much point in continuing this. Let's just have fun on the battlefield and here's to a bunch of pixels burned on both sides! :D

 

EDIT: next time just quote my posts, fam. At this point I'm only reading the ones I'm quoted on. :P But I'm gonna stop here. I think you're a reasonable guy and I respect you tremendously as a fighter. So I hope you enjoy the war as well! :)

Edited by Insert Name Here
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Yes he does, because people aren't forced to predict when the admin will change the rules mid-way and, most importantly, certain people adopted a certain course of action based on the fact that they thought they could expect some stability from the admin.

 

He warned against doing it though. You guys literally went ahead and did what he had specifically promised to disrupt.

 

If anything, this increases predictability that he fulfills the promise of disrupting any strategizing over it. 

 

Also, as far as changing rules mid-way, if you read his original post, he clearly said update wasn't  final and it might be changed before implementation. Which genius decided to plan out an exact strategy over that by doing exactly what Alex had said he will disrupt? That's who you should be asking all the questions.

 

This whole ugliness wouldn't have arisen to begin with really had you listened to Alex's original post. 

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I can blame him because the admin is supposed to know what he's doing. And then, after a portion of the players takes a gamble based on the assumption that they can trust the admin to not change the rules, those players are getting royally screwed. But hey, if you guys want that advantage, then no one can blame you. I don't think there's much point in continuing this. Let's just have fun on the battlefield and here's to a bunch of pixels burned on both sides! :D

 

EDIT: next time just quote my posts, fam. At this point I'm only reading the ones I'm quoted on. :P But I'm gonna stop here. I think you're a reasonable guy and I respect you tremendously as a fighter. So I hope you enjoy the war as well! :)

 

I was posting more on a general point tbh, wasn't directed at first. :P  

 

I respect alliances like The Syndicate and Mensa HQ a lot too, enough to say that you guys have a very good chance against us. I'm all for meeting on the battlefield instead! It will be fun whichever way it goes! 

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