Human Obsolescence

[Ogaden]

In the not too distant future, all jobs will be automated.

 

[Edward I]

As God and Keynes intended.

[Vack]

Rip my job. I'm basically a third party financial data formatting bot.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/05/21/408234543/will-your-job-be-done-by-a-machine

[Juan Julio Montague]

How good. When all menial tasks become automated we need not worry about things like food, drink, pleasure or pain. We will seek higher planes of thinking and become higher beings.

Or only the rich will benefit from the use of automation while everyone else suffers from starvation.

[Woot]

So he starts out by saying that he's not going to repeat the same luddite arguments that have been proved wrong since the industrial revolution, he says he's talking about something entirely new. Okay, I'm listening. Then he spends 90% of the video just listing off new and upcoming technologies and asking what will happen if they displace different jobs. Any moron could have done that with today's technology 100 years ago and been proven wrong. "Oh shit, tractors! Oh shit, electricity! Oh shit, industrial robots!" So ignoring his list of technologies, what's his real argument?

 

His first big smoking gun seems to be an analogy about horses. I could file it away as another one of those arguments that could have been made 50 years ago to prove nobody would have jobs today, but I want to point out how ridiculous it is. Horses are a tool, they do absolutely nothing by themselves, they only multiply the productivity of human labor. Just because they're flesh and blood, CGP Grey is dumb enough to conflate them with humans. Replace every mention of "horse" with "typewriter" and see if he's making any really profound point.

 

His other point seems to be that automation is happening not just to menial labor, but also intellectual labor too now. Wow! What a novel idea to hear about through the internet on my computer. So many scriveners and human calculators and switchboard operators are going to lose their jobs, I don't know how society will cope with this completely unprecedented kind of automation.

 

Here's my crazy opinion: A productivity increase means that a worker can produce more stuff with their labor, and so productivity increases result, very generally speaking, in workers getting more stuff for their labor. Jobs are not a finite resource that get slowly chipped away at until they run out, demand for labor is always going to meet the supply at some price and the market will supply about as many jobs in the long run as there are willing workers. Combine these two things and you have the result - technology more or less improves things and makes us richer instead of collapsing the economy and starving us all. Hey, that's what common sense would tell you and it's what's happened for centuries. 

 

Automation can drive wages up and down in different sectors, temporarily put people out work, cause all sorts of legitimate worries for some people in the short term. But go look and see how many serious economists are talking about a job apocalypse where half the country is about to become unemployed. Oh, but that's right, economists are blind to this because they're ignorant about the fact that technology is happening. They lack the serious credentials that come with reading articles about new gadgets and jerking off to pictures of Elon Musk. Or maybe it's because they have jobs and respect and don't have to dream about a world where nobody expects them to do anything but collect a basic income check and watch anime. CGP grey is a hack that needs to stop broadcasting his stupid ideas as if they're expert knowledge. Humans Need Not Apply is worst video he's made by far.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Woot

[Rozalia]

If the correct social/economic policies are in place then near complete (humans will still have to do some jobs) mechanisation of jobs will be a positive. If you don't then we'll have some bad juju going down obviously.

[Doktor Avalanche]

My main skills are repairing small appliances.

 

I am obsolete due to all things manufactured are now extremely cheap and disposable.

[Big Brother]

How good. When all menial tasks become automated we need not worry about things like food, drink, pleasure or pain. We will seek higher planes of thinking and become higher beings.

 

This is the transhumanist ideal. We can become better through technology

 

Ironically, this is more or less exactly what communism sets out to create. A world in which people don't have to spend so much of their time working so they can spend it on higher planes of thinking as you say and on developing themselves as human beings.

 

It'll be really interesting to see how people who can no longer find work because of automation react and how the world's societies respond to that problem.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Ironically, this is more or less exactly what communism sets out to create. A world in which people don't have to spend so much of their time working so they can spend it on higher planes of thinking as you say and on developing themselves as human beings.

 

It'll be really interesting to see how people who can no longer find work because of automation react and how the world's societies respond to that problem.

We will all learn how to repair the repair bots.

[Rozalia]

Ironically, this is more or less exactly what communism sets out to create. A world in which people don't have to spend so much of their time working so they can spend it on higher planes of thinking as you say and on developing themselves as human beings.

 

It'll be really interesting to see how people who can no longer find work because of automation react and how the world's societies respond to that problem.

 

Similar but not quite. His ideal on that, and most people's for that matter, would be one where advancement and the attainment of more wealth is still very much possible. Communism not so much in that regard unless you're counting the corrupt officials.

[Big Brother]

Similar but not quite. His ideal on that, and most people's for that matter, would be one where advancement and the attainment of more wealth is still very much possible. Communism not so much in that regard unless you're counting the corrupt officials.

 

You speak for him? Curious.

 

Why on Earth would anyone need wealth if automation produces everything we need? If automation was applied on a massive scale you could theoretically produce everything everyone needs without most human beings having to do any work whatsoever. You could even have the machines produce themselves and manage themselves automatically. What reducing the workload like this leads to is very similar to Communism except that Communists seek to reduce the workload for each and every individual by collective ownership of the means of production and through uniting the world's workers in common efforts instead of how automation does it, namely through machines and technology. Both can in theory be used to achieve a state in which mankind is far more free to pursue "higher planes of thinking" and to develop themselves by not having to spend hours upon hours of their relatively short lifespans working in order to survive.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Big Brother

[Ishmael]

 

-snip-

 

Got to say I largely agree. I much prefer CGP's older videos. One thing to consider however, is that labour is sticky (unlike capital). You can't straightaway re-purpose somebody to a new highly skilled job if their old one was taken away. It takes years of training. So if technology starts advancing faster than humans can retrain themselves then we will see widespread unemployment. Another thing, if we do ever develop human level AI, pretty much all jobs for actual humans are gone for good because labour supply will trend towards infinity.

[Rozalia]

You speak for him? Curious.

 

Why on Earth would anyone need wealth if automation produces everything we need? If automation was applied on a massive scale you could theoretically produce everything everyone needs without most human beings having to do any work whatsoever. You could even have the machines produce themselves and manage themselves automatically. What reducing the workload like this leads to is very similar to Communism except that Communists seek to reduce the workload for each and every individual by collective ownership of the means of production and through uniting the world's workers in common efforts instead of how automation does it, namely through machines and technology. Both can in theory be used to achieve a state in which mankind is far more free to pursue "higher planes of thinking" and to develop themselves by not having to spend hours upon hours of their relatively short lifespans working in order to survive.

 

Should have prefaced like I usually do but I'm confident on that one. He certainly ain't a Communist.

 

I didn't know that automation meant everything would suddenly cost 0 and be in massive abundance, some infinite energy and matter machine I don't know about? People want bigger and better houses, transport, entertainment, and so forth. You need moolah for that and what becomes the new bare minimum is what is handed out to each citizen, enough to live on and get the basic necessities but people want more than that. Those items might be cheaper (could also be more expensive) depending on how things go but whatever the case you'll need to work to attain them. 

 

 

Got to say I largely agree. I much prefer CGP's older videos. One thing to consider however, is that labour is sticky (unlike capital). You can't straightaway re-purpose somebody to a new highly skilled job if their old one was taken away. It takes years of training. So if technology starts advancing faster than humans can retrain themselves then we will see widespread unemployment. Another thing, if we do ever develop human level AI, pretty much all jobs for actual humans are gone for good because labour supply will trend towards infinity.

 

They would be forced to implement a Basic Income if it reached such a point.

[Big Brother]

Should have prefaced like I usually do but I'm confident on that one. He certainly ain't a Communist.

 

I didn't know that automation meant everything would suddenly cost 0 and be in massive abundance, some infinite energy and matter machine I don't know about? People want bigger and better houses, transport, entertainment, and so forth. You need moolah for that and what becomes the new bare minimum is what is handed out to each citizen, enough to live on and get the basic necessities but people want more than that. Those items might be cheaper (could also be more expensive) depending on how things go but whatever the case you'll need to work to attain them.

 

If everything could be produced with no human labor then there would be no point to charge anyone for anything and our planet is already abundant with many resources. We are learning more and more about how to create synthetic replacements of the resources we need as well. We have access to plenty of renewable energy that we don't use today and last time I checked matter is plentiful and can be recycled. All these problems you mention can be and would be solved if only there was the will to do so. As for people wanting bigger and better things, that is a result of capitalist consumerism and marketing inventing needs than you don't actually have or people trying to find substitutes for what they actually need. When those things go away, so would the false needs. Even if they did somehow remain, assuming the energy and resource requirements can be solved it would just be a matter of making the machines produce what they want. There would be no reason to maintain a currency economy in a society like that.

[Rozalia]

If everything could be produced with no human labor then there would be no point to charge anyone for anything and our planet is already abundant with many resources. We are learning more and more about how to create synthetic replacements of the resources we need as well. We have access to plenty of renewable energy that we don't use today and last time I checked matter is plentiful and can be recycled. All these problems you mention can be and would be solved if only there was the will to do so. As for people wanting bigger and better things, that is a result of capitalist consumerism and marketing inventing needs than you don't actually have or people trying to find substitutes for what they actually need. When those things go away, so would the false needs. Even if they did somehow remain, assuming the energy and resource requirements can be solved it would just be a matter of making the machines produce what they want. There would be no reason to maintain a currency economy in a society like that.

 

Yes, there is just infinite resources for everyone to have a free car, two, or three, and making stuff doesn't cost anything either. Come on now. Mechanisation isn't going to give this magic money tree (well goes even beyond that as what you're saying is that ridiculous) for Communism to finally function as you believe it should. Mechanisation isn't going to wipe out money nor is it going to wipe out people's want for wealth and success.

[Woot]

 As for people wanting bigger and better things, that is a result of capitalist consumerism and marketing inventing needs than you don't actually have or people trying to find substitutes for what they actually need. When those things go away, so would the false needs. 

 

There were times in human history where simple things like indoor plumbing or a personal computer were seen as incredibly extravagant, unnecessary luxuries. But once they got cheap enough, people saw them as nice things worth working for. Do you want to throw that stuff away and live the idyllic life in a cabin in the woods?

 

It's human nature to have ambition and want better things. You'll never get people to be satisfied with some arbitrary living standard you pick for them. Nobody would follow your ideas voluntarily and if you had the power to try to force it on them, people would overthrow you.

 

Consider an extreme example. When do we decide that healthcare is 'good enough' and stop expanding the amount of labor and resources we pour into making healthcare better? As long as the healthcare keeps becoming better and more elaborate it's impossible to automate it all and never look back, so where's the line where we say screw it, our drugs and treatments and standard of care are as much as anybody needs, so everyone who works in the field can retire as soon as we automate the manual labor?

[Big Brother]

There were times in human history where simple things like indoor plumbing or a personal computer were seen as incredibly extravagant, unnecessary luxuries. But once they got cheap enough, people saw them as nice things worth working for. Do you want to throw that stuff away and live the idyllic life in a cabin in the woods?

 

It's human nature to have ambition and want better things. You'll never get people to be satisfied with some arbitrary living standard you pick for them. Nobody would follow your ideas voluntarily and if you had the power to try to force it on them, people would overthrow you.

 

Consider an extreme example. When do we decide that healthcare is 'good enough' and stop expanding the amount of labor and resources we pour into making healthcare better? As long as the healthcare keeps becoming better and more elaborate it's impossible to automate it all and never look back, so where's the line where we say screw it, our drugs and treatments and standard of care are as much as anybody needs, so everyone who works in the field can retire as soon as we automate the manual labor?

 

I don't seek to throw anything away, if people really do want plumbing and computers I'm sure they will find a way to get such things. However, people's needs and wants will without a doubt change in a society where everything is already provided for.

 

I reject any argument based on an arbitrary definition of human nature. There's no consensus on which traits belong to human nature and your version of it, which I don't agree with, is no more true than anyone else's version of it. Nowhere have I said anything about instituting an arbitrary living standard, it would be up to the formerly working masses to decide on that. But again, their needs and wants would not be the same as those many people experience today because an automated society and economy will have influenced and developed them in different ways than free market economies do today. Material things would begin to lose meaning and value because of their abundance. I believe one of the biggest reasons some people often or always want bigger and better things is just because they are duped into believing that they should want bigger and better things and that it's "natural" to always want more. Human beings are fickle like that. As for whether or not people might follow ideas like these, I think you'll find that a lot of people would be very interested in living a life where everything is provided for you and where you have the most time and opportunities to spend your life doing what you really want to do.

 

Why wouldn't more advanced healthcare be automated, even as it develops? Automation will likely develop just as quickly, if not even quicker. You could task machines with creating smarter machines, then task the smarter machines to create even smarter machines, and so on. Eventually, you'll have a machine that is advanced enough to automate even the most advanced healthcare techniques, and it would be able to learn everything it needs about healthcare far faster than a human being could. If a line does need to be drawn regarding the quality of healthcare for whatever reason, it should be decided on in the most democratic way possible, though I don't believe this need would arise.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Big Brother

[Big Brother]

automatons cannot make art, automatons are not social, automatons cannot create scientific theory. In an environment where everything is created for you, you still would have the ability to create things yourself. These "things" will ascertain your worth, whether it be art, your abilities as a therapist or as a scientist. There will always be the need for humans in a human-centric environment

 

Things do not ascertain your worth. That is a shallow and unethically materialistic way to gauge the value of human life. You would indeed still be able to create things yourself, but they would not necessarily be valuable to anyone but you, nor would they need to be. Humans will probably always experience the need of other humans, you are right about that. But they wouldn't need humans to spend hours on hours making a living in a more or less completely automated society. Automatons cannot create genuine art, though they can reproduce it, just as they can reproduce social behavior. It's not even inconceivable that advanced automatons could also create scientific theory. Regardless, things like art, philosophy, science, they are what I assume we both refer to as "higher planes of thinking". I don't expect that automation will overtake us to the point where they pursue higher planes of thinking, only that it will allow to do more of that ourselves. Automation could be used to give us more time to do what we want to do as opposed to what we have to do.

 

 

Deus ex machina

Edited November 25, 2016 by Big Brother

[Juan Julio Montague]

Things do not ascertain your worth. That is a shallow and unethically materialistic way to gauge the value of human life. You would indeed still be able to create things yourself, but they would not necessarily be valuable to anyone but you, nor would they need to be. Humans will probably always experience the need of other humans, you are right about that. But they wouldn't need humans to spend hours on hours making a living in a more or less completely automated society. Automatons cannot create genuine art, though they can reproduce it, just as they can reproduce social behavior. It's not even inconceivable that advanced automatons could also create scientific theory. Regardless, things like art, philosophy, science, they are what I assume we both refer to as "higher planes of thinking". I don't expect that automation will overtake us to the point where they pursue higher planes of thinking, only that it will allow to do more of that ourselves. Automation could be used to give us more time to do what we want to do as opposed to what we have to do.

I find it strange that you are quick to paint this kind of world as a utopia. Do you not believe that a world where humanity is only capable of doing certain things because machines have obsoleted us in every other aspect to be a perfect world? Not everyone wants to spend their life perusing these forms of "higher" thinking, but in a world of automation that is all that would be left for us. Take it a step further and say that machines even somehow replaces us in that sense as well, then you have a world where human life is meaningless and somewhat decadent. Living a life of only luxury until eventually they die. At least humanity has the ability to find their own sense of meaning in life through their work in this world in comparison to this utopia where everyone's needs are provided for. 

[Big Brother]

I find it strange that you are quick to paint this kind of world as a utopia. Do you not believe that a world where humanity is only capable of doing certain things because machines have obsoleted us in every other aspect to be a perfect world? Not everyone wants to spend their life perusing these forms of "higher" thinking, but in a world of automation that is all that would be left for us. Take it a step further and say that machines even somehow replaces us in that sense as well, then you have a world where human life is meaningless and somewhat decadent. Living a life of only luxury until eventually they die. At least humanity has the ability to find their own sense of meaning in life through their work in this world in comparison to this utopia where everyone's needs are provided for. 

 

No, humanity would be capable of doing whatever they want with their time. If that means you want to do the work people used to, the work that is now automated, then you have the choice to do so. Automation isn't something that would limit what human beings could do, it would exponentially increase the amount of time we have to do whatever it is we want to do. You wouldn't have to do the work automatons do but if you wanted to, you could. If you want to spend your days chopping down trees in the forest even though plenty of machines exist that do so automatically, no one would stop you. Like I mentioned, by freeing ourselves from what we have to do we become able to do whatever we want to do. There's literally no reason to think that human beings wouldn't have the ability to "find their own sense of meaning in life through their work". In fact, they would be more able to do so because they don't have to worry about providing for themselves and their families. They could do whatever work they want, whether it's picking up trash, writing symphonies or simple farming.

 

And I hate to break it to you but the world where human life is meaningless and somewhat decadent is this world. It's what we're living. The meaning we create for ourselves, even that created through work, is just an illusion we indulge.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Big Brother

[Juan Julio Montague]

And I hate to break it to you but the world where human life is meaningless and somewhat decadent is this world. It's what we're living. The meaning we create for ourselves, even that created through work, is just an illusion we indulge.

Well aren't you just edgy. Yes, humanity has no great meaning but through the work we do and the struggle to survive we find out own meaning. A world were everything is provided would remove what little meaning humanity has in this universe.

 

No, humanity would be capable of doing whatever they want with their time. If that means you want to do the work people used to, the work that is now automated, then you have the choice to do so. Automation isn't something that would limit what human beings could do, it would exponentially increase the amount of time we have to do whatever it is we want to do. You wouldn't have to do the work automatons do but if you wanted to, you could. If you want to spend your days chopping down trees in the forest even though plenty of machines exist that do so automatically, no one would stop you. Like I mentioned, by freeing ourselves from what we have to do we become able to do whatever we want to do. There's literally no reason to think that human beings wouldn't have the ability to "find their own sense of meaning in life through their work". In fact, they would be more able to do so because they don't have to worry about providing for themselves and their families. They could do whatever work they want, whether it's picking up trash, writing symphonies or simple farming.

Also for the argument of "if you want to go and live in the forest cutting down trees, you can in this perfect utopia you can do whatever you want!" is a little condescending and ignores the point. As I mentioned previously, with everything provided it removes any purpose in the work you do outside of these fields. Humanity needs purpose and through this purpose you find meaning. "That shitty job limiting that random guys potential" well he is doing something with his life, he is providing something. It may not be perfect, but perfection in life removes purpose, drive, and ambition. Humanity thrives on these very things. Yes the world we live in today has these things. Can it be better? Sure. People still starve in the streets and struggle to survive, but a world where you are born and given the option to either contribute through art and science or do nothing meaningful then you can't tell me humanity "can do whatever they want and strive to their hearts content". We all secretly want to live in a world where we don't have to do anything, but if you ask me if that world was reality then no one would enjoy it.

[Rozalia]

I find it strange that you are quick to paint this kind of world as a utopia. Do you not believe that a world where humanity is only capable of doing certain things because machines have obsoleted us in every other aspect to be a perfect world? Not everyone wants to spend their life perusing these forms of "higher" thinking, but in a world of automation that is all that would be left for us. Take it a step further and say that machines even somehow replaces us in that sense as well, then you have a world where human life is meaningless and somewhat decadent. Living a life of only luxury until eventually they die. At least humanity has the ability to find their own sense of meaning in life through their work in this world in comparison to this utopia where everyone's needs are provided for. 

 

Funny thing is that it ain't even a life of luxury. I've dealt with these Communist types before and when they start mentioning these things they seriously belief a life where you're taken care of fully, as in you get your bread and water to live on and nothing else (you can't acquire more wealth so you're not getting luxury goods) is some sort of utopia.

 

Much preferred is a system where you are taken care of (it'll be necessary to be provided for in the future) but there is still avenues to get more money and luxury goods, but he has problems with money and people enjoying life with material goods it seems (and he might wonder why his views are so unpopular and will never be done anywhere in the world).

[Juan Julio Montague]

Much preferred is a system where you are taken care of (it'll be necessary to be provided for in the future) but there is still avenues to get more money and luxury goods, but he has problems with money and people enjoying life with material goods it seems (and he might wonder why his views are so unpopular and will never be done anywhere in the world).

I can't help but agree with you there. I'm not sure of the perfect system to accomplish it and I'm sure most aren't but to the extreme certainly isn't one of them (communism). Humans simply can not function in such a world and the soviet union and several socialist countries that have tried to obtain it have already proven this.

[Big Brother]

Well aren't you just edgy. Yes, humanity has no great meaning but through the work we do and the struggle to survive we find out own meaning. A world were everything is provided would remove what little meaning humanity has in this universe.

 

It's not about being edgy, it's just a fact. Human beings don't need work to invent meaning. Frankly, I'm not sure they need anything to do so. Removing the need to work wouldn't remove the need for meaning nor our capabilities of creating it.

 

Also for the argument of "if you want to go and live in the forest cutting down trees, you can in this perfect utopia you can do whatever you want!" is a little condescending and ignores the point. As I mentioned previously, with everything provided it removes any purpose in the work you do outside of these fields. Humanity needs purpose and through this purpose you find meaning. "That shitty job limiting that random guys potential" well he is doing something with his life, he is providing something. It may not be perfect, but perfection in life removes purpose, drive, and ambition. Humanity thrives on these very things. Yes the world we live in today has these things. Can it be better? Sure. People still starve in the streets and struggle to survive, but a world where you are born and given the option to either contribute through art and science or do nothing meaningful then you can't tell me humanity "can do whatever they want and strive to their hearts content". We all secretly want to live in a world where we don't have to do anything, but if you ask me if that world was reality then no one would enjoy it.

 

It wasn't meant to be condescending, I'm sure you've just spend too much time on the internet around people who actually want to piss people off. I'm not one of them. The purpose in the work you do outside of these fields is not reliant on the work being necessary. If you find meaning in the work and you enjoy, you can do it. Honestly, I think you're the one ignoring the point. If "that random guy" finds meaning in doing his "shitty job" then nothing is stopping him from doing that job. The meaning he finds there will not simply disappear. Perfection in life is just the starting point for something else. "A world where you are born and given the option to either contribute through art and science or do nothing meaningful then you can't tell me humanity can do whatever they want and strive to their hearts content". You are the only one claiming that they cannot do anything meaningful. What better way to find their meaning in a society where they can do whatever they want because they are provided for? You simply do not seem to be able to wrap your head around the fact that people can find meaning in working with things that aren't actually necessary. If this wasn't actually the case, the would be no art, no music, no pretty buildings, nothing that wasn't created out of absolute necessity. I don't think people want to live in a world there they don't have to do anything, I believe they want to live in a world where they are free to follow whatever meaning they create for themselves.

 

Funny thing is that it ain't even a life of luxury. I've dealt with these Communist types before and when they start mentioning these things they seriously belief a life where you're taken care of fully, as in you get your bread and water to live on and nothing else (you can't acquire more wealth so you're not getting luxury goods) is some sort of utopia.

 

Much preferred is a system where you are taken care of (it'll be necessary to be provided for in the future) but there is still avenues to get more money and luxury goods, but he has problems with money and people enjoying life with material goods it seems (and he might wonder why his views are so unpopular and will never be done anywhere in the world).

 

You didn't actually read my posts did you? Either that or you're being deliberately dense in an effort to spread misconceptions.

 

"I don't seek to throw anything away, if people really do want plumbing and computers I'm sure they will find a way to get such things."

 

"As for people wanting bigger and better things, that is a result of capitalist consumerism and marketing inventing needs than you don't actually have or people trying to find substitutes for what they actually need. When those things go away, so would the false needs. Even if they did somehow remain, assuming the energy and resource requirements can be solved it would just be a matter of making the machines produce what they want."

 

Nowhere, nowhere did I say that I believe a life where all you're given is bread and water and nothing else is some sort of utopia. That is straight out of your imagination. If people truly seek luxury items in an automated society, they will have the automatons create them, though I seriously doubt they will still want luxury items because, like I said before, their wants and needs would not be the same as human beings today. If you're actually going to comment on my posts, at least have the decency to read them and understand them first.

 

And please, you don't speak for me. You don't know anything about my relationship with money and material goods or anything about me personally at all. I certainly don't have any problems with enjoying myself. Kindly !@#$ off with your overtly slanderous assumptions and stick to the topic.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Big Brother

[Juan Julio Montague]

It's not about being edgy, it's just a fact. Human beings don't need work to invent meaning. Frankly, I'm not sure they need anything to do so. Removing the need to work wouldn't remove the need for meaning nor our capabilities of creating it.

 

 

It wasn't meant to be condescending, I'm sure you've just spend too much time on the internet around people who actually want to piss people off. I'm not one of them. The purpose in the work you do outside of these fields is not reliant on the work being necessary. If you find meaning in the work and you enjoy, you can do it. Honestly, I think you're the one ignoring the point. If "that random guy" finds meaning in doing his "shitty job" then nothing is stopping him from doing that job. The meaning he finds there will not simply disappear. Perfection in life is just the starting point for something else. "A world where you are born and given the option to either contribute through art and science or do nothing meaningful then you can't tell me humanity can do whatever they want and strive to their hearts content". You are the only one claiming that they cannot do anything meaningful. What better way to find their meaning in a society where they can do whatever they want because they are provided for? You simply do not seem to be able to wrap your head around the fact that people can find meaning in working with things that aren't actually necessary. If this wasn't actually the case, the would be no art, no music, no pretty buildings, nothing that wasn't created out of absolute necessity. I don't think people want to live in a world there they don't have to do anything, I believe they want to live in a world where they are free to follow whatever meaning they create for themselves.

"I'm sure you've just spend too much time on the internet around people who actually want to piss people off." and "You simply do not seem to be able to wrap your head around the fact that people can find meaning in working with things that aren't actually necessary." Nah, the way you are wording your arguments is very condescending, probably should work on that. As for saying that the work doesn't need to be necessary for someone to want to do it, because we have artists and music! Well I bring this to the table, the work of an artist or musician is important/necessary as a means of entertainment. Even then, it brings purpose to express that very artists feelings, ideas, thoughts. Now I admit not every work needs to have some life or death necessity in life, but in needs to bring a purpose or contribute something to the world. Someone must have a demand for their work. In this world, the man in your example going off to live in the forest to cut down trees has no demand for his work. " I don't think people want to live in a world there they don't have to do anything, I believe they want to live in a world where they are free to follow whatever meaning they create for themselves." So your solution to that is to remove any and all means to contribute any work outside the fields of art, science, and math? Great solution 10/10. I'm going to give them more options by removing options.