Jump to content

Rose's Surrender


Belisarius
 Share

Recommended Posts

I keep seeing the hostage analogy. It's pretty funny. Here's a different one.

 

Group of armed thugs broke into the wrong house, broke shit, then the owner subdued them. Now they all have to pay for damages.

This analogy doesn't really work because it carries an assumption that attacking is inherently wrong and then requires damages to be paid. If that was the case, you'd owe us from last time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like how you're quoting Steve as if his word really means something, Saru.  Of course Steve is going to want to take credit for Alpha's contribution to the war and claim they done well.

 

 

This doesn't really mean anything to me. You could say the same about Pre being disgruntled ever since he quit Alpha, and taking the opportunity to try and shit on them/Steve when he gets the chance. Something I have seen far more off than Alpha claiming how great they have done.

 

Also, the statement "UPN/DEIC had the upper tiers completely handled and given game mechanics, there would've been no way to take them down."  This is completely false, as both Mensa and Arrgh have shown how to updeclare and drag people down

 

That's not something I argued... I said that UPN/DEIC had the upper tier under control, and with VE being free to help out and utilise their fresh upper tier too on better targets (which likely would of been the case with Alpha not entering), then the updeclares and dragging people down would of been a lot more difficult than you are saying it would be.

 

To paint the picture that it would of been a breeze in the park,and just extend war by a few days, and claim you would of been able to demand those sorts of reps isn't being completely honest I feel. At that point both UPN/DEIC were also significantly more active than we are now too, as were VE, so while you had an advantage in being better coordinated, the disparity between activity levels was not as high as it is now. 

 

You're also backing your claim due to Partisan.  Partisan isn't a military strategist.  He's a foreign affairs guru.  He draws up support, not plan out who strikes who, and what scores go against other scores.

 

 

He has usually been involved in the planning of the war, on the macro level. You don't need to be giving out targets to understand what is going on. In fact I would say that planning the war on a coalition wide scale, listening to what your milcom is saying and taking the political context of the situation into account gives you a much more balanced view. Partisan and Placentica were both involved in the higher level planning, I would guess that Pre was not.

 

 

With this in mind, you are arguing against someone who is very familiar with how the mechanics of war works.  Do you honestly think both Steve and Partisan are better at understanding war than Prefontaine?  Someone who literally had a radio show talking about the mechanics of war for awhile, mind you.

 

 

I am arguing with someone who loves themselves so much (and the sound of their voice for that matter), that they cannot admit when they are wrong. I don't doubt that he knows the war system well, I doubt his understanding of what we are actually talking about and that is the outcome that Alpha had on the war -- which includes their actual war contributions (which are still being underplayed) as well as other things that could of materialised, such as VE acting differently (and maybe even CS then), and perhaps Rose helping in some capacity. So I don't know who has the better understanding of the war system, but I think both Placentica and Partisan have a better understanding of the war in question.

 

My point is that you don't judge the outcome on the war purely based on mechanics in an isolated case. Like I said, these things have knock on effects. You have to consider the whole context. And either Arrgh or Alpha not entering would of been significant enough that you wouldn't of been able to force those kind of reps on us imo. Of course this is a value judgement, but saying that there was no chance of it just shows ignorance on the part of the people who are saying it.

 

Just the point that other alliances who may of entered, did not (as a result of Alpha's declaration), had an effect on the war as a whole. So even without destroying a pixel, there was a significant effect. And I still feel like you are undervaluing the actual damage they did.

Edited by Saru

200px-UPN.svg.png

Second in Command of UPN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did anyone of you consider the possibility that you might be wrong? I'm just curious, do you ever self reflect?

 

Obviously you cannot avoid that when discussing what would of happened if something else had happened -- especially when there are multiple variables involved in it. The point is that some are not recognising those variables, and have a skewed and limited perspective. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing if you are all in positions of having the same knowledge of what went on. But making claims that something objectively would not of made a difference/not allowing for any possibility otherwise, despite not knowing as much context as some people (from various fronts) claiming otherwise who are in a better position to judge, makes you ignorant at the least... 

200px-UPN.svg.png

Second in Command of UPN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mmm. I haven't made the calculations, but I bet that if I truly wanted I could get NPO to about ~1k infra per city in all cities in 2-3 weeks tops.

 

 

 But making claims that something objectively would not of made a difference/not allowing for any possibility otherwise, despite not knowing as much context as some people (from various fronts) claiming otherwise who are in a better position to judge, makes you ignorant at the least... 

 

Isn't that what Prefontaine and you have both been doing, though? 

Edited by Beatrix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This doesn't really mean anything to me. You could say the same about Pre being disgruntled ever since he quit Alpha, and taking the opportunity to try and shit on them/Steve when he gets the chance. Something I have seen far more off than Alpha claiming how great they have done.

 

 

That's not something I argued... I said that UPN/DEIC had the upper tier under control, and with VE being free to help out and utilise their fresh upper tier too on better targets (which likely would of been the case with Alpha not entering), then the updeclares and dragging people down would of been a lot more difficult than you are saying it would be.

 

To paint the picture that it would of been a breeze in the park,and just extend war by a few days, and claim you would of been able to demand those sorts of reps isn't being completely honest I feel. At that point both UPN/DEIC were also significantly more active than we are now too, as were VE, so while you had an advantage in being better coordinated, the disparity between activity levels was not as high as it is now.

Of course you didn't argue that. Steve did. The person whom you're literally using as a means to argue against Prefontaine's claim. I used Steve's statement to show that it's terrible to use him since he is clearly wrong with that statement. I also did not paint the picture that it would of been a breeze. It wouldn't have for sure. We still would've came out on top as we would mercilessly picked off the top tier targets without any fear of retaliation. We were literally starting to snowball on Covenant after Arrgh jumped in.

 

 

He has usually been involved in the planning of the war, on the macro level. You don't need to be giving out targets to understand what is going on. In fact I would say that planning the war on a coalition wide scale, listening to what your milcom is saying and taking the political context of the situation into account gives you a much more balanced view. Partisan and Placentica were both involved in the higher level planning, I would guess that Pre was not.

They were both involved in garnering support, not arranging what nation hits who. Those who handle that (At the time: Jessica Rabbit, Blande/myself/Avruch, Yosodog, etc) have a much better idea on how the war is going based on performance of each nation/battle. You're right that Partisan and people in similar position to his would look at it on a macro level, but to say that their opinion is good when it comes to debating if our mid-tier could've handled the top-tier in this war - that is false. You're talking to the wrong people there. Now if you want to know what alliances held up strongly during the war and which ones were getting shakey, the morale of each alliance's support in the war effort, then you're talking to the right person in Partisan for our side. I'm saying that with the discussion that Covenant would've stalemated or won the war, that wasn't possible at its current setup. With or without Alpha's help, we would've eventually gotten to dragging down everybody in Covenant because you guys made some major mistakes with a severe lack of double building to recover. The only possible chance of Covenant winning Oktoberfest is if Paragon had fully committed instead of limiting their attacks.

 

 

I am arguing with someone who loves themselves so much (and the sound of their voice for that matter), that they cannot admit when they are wrong. I don't doubt that he knows the war system well, I doubt his understanding of what we are actually talking about and that is the outcome that Alpha had on the war -- which includes their actual war contributions (which are still being underplayed) as well as other things that could of materialised, such as VE acting differently (and maybe even CS then), and perhaps Rose helping in some capacity. So I don't know who has the better understanding of the war system, but I think both Placentica and Partisan have a better understanding of the war in question.

 

My point is that you don't judge the outcome on the war purely based on mechanics in an isolated case. Like I said, these things have knock on effects. You have to consider the whole context. And either Arrgh or Alpha not entering would of been significant enough that you wouldn't of been able to force those kind of reps on us imo. Of course this is a value judgement, but saying that there was no chance of it just shows ignorance on the part of the people who are saying it.

 

Just the point that other alliances who may of entered, did not (as a result of Alpha's declaration), had an effect on the war as a whole. So even without destroying a pixel, there was a significant effect. And I still feel like you are undervaluing the actual damage they did.

I won't deny that Prefontaine loves himself a lot, good on him, but you can't ignore his views on it. He was in Alpha and he's well aware of how wars go. I would definitely take his word over Steve's in this case.

 

In regards to Alpha keeping other alliances out, ehh... I don't see it mainly because it was so late in the war. You could be right on that, but I don't see it. If alliances were going to jump in, they would've done so earlier than Alpha's joining in the war.

  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know what is worse- the debate going on in here based on ancient history or the fact that many of the Alliances in-game who have protectorates are dropping below the very alliances they are protecting.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know what is worse- the debate going on in here based on ancient history or the fact that many of the Alliances in-game who have protectorates are dropping below the very alliances they are protecting.

 

Meh, it's downtime - even when a war is still going on.  So we're bored and playing armchair generals arguing over hindsight.

  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're so busy trying to spin plain english you're missing the point. Here, I'll try again.

 

If the entire point of our existence was to acquire profit at the expense of our own security, does anything we've done in the last ten months make any sense? Why should we place good faith in the hands of those who've shown only bad faith? What value is a temporary peace if the best we can hope for us that people we already know we can't trust and who have betrayed us in the past might let us be on their side? What good is growth if it only leaves us vulnerable to being picked off later? Why shouldn't we fight this out, knowing this is internally consistent with the wishes of our membership and that the political structure of this game has nothing to appeal to us outside of it?

 

Summary: I ask you why you are banging your head on the wall. Your answer: We are all going to die anyway, so why not bang my head on the wall?

 

Well, you are absolutely free to bang your head on the wall, pal. I don't mean to interfere. By all means, go ahead and continue to bang your head on the wall, while blaming the wall for your headache.

  • Upvote 2
77oKn5K.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In regards to Alpha keeping other alliances out, ehh... I don't see it mainly because it was so late in the war. You could be right on that, but I don't see it. If alliances were going to jump in, they would've done so earlier than Alpha's joining in the war.

 

It was 2 days later than the first counter on us. VE hitting someone else instead of Arrgh is very likely had Alpha not stepped in -- possibly drawing in some others such as Cornerstone if anyone countered them, Rose somewhat hinted that they may do something -- but Alpha entering cut off any communications of it, so I don't know how serious they were.

 

It wouldn't have for sure. We still would've came out on top as we would mercilessly picked off the top tier targets without any fear of retaliation.

 

Again, you are assuming there would not of been a fear of retaliation because it was in large part Alpha's entrance that ensured there wouldn't be retaliation.

 

I'm saying that with the discussion that Covenant would've stalemated or won the war, that wasn't possible at its current setup. 

 

 

Not sure if I understood you correctly here but the Covenant was not at its current set up. Like I said it was a lot more active, on all fronts. 

 

With or without Alpha's help, we would've eventually gotten to dragging down everybody in Covenant because you guys made some major mistakes with a severe lack of double building to recover. 

 

We are not discussing a case of all things being equal if Alpha did not enter, because the point is the situation wouldn't of been equal... You cannot objectively say that you would of been able to drag down everybody, when you don't know which other alliances could of entered/where VE would of been placed (perhaps BoC wouldn't have surrendered, or VE caused someone else to surrender). You just don't know... and like Pre if you are claiming you do, then you are being dishonest imo, or alternatively making an honest mistake by having a narrow minded view (in the sense that you only focus on the Alpha damage dealt only, instead of how the war would of played out by considering all variables).

 

but you can't ignore his views on it

 

 

Obviously I am not ignoring his views. Just look at the last few pages.

 

The only possible chance of Covenant winning Oktoberfest is if Paragon had fully committed instead of limiting their attacks.

 

 

I didn't say we would of won had either Alpha/Arrgh not entered. I said it may of been a possibility had both not entered. What I said was that if either of them did not enter, then it would of likely been a stalemate -- in the sense that you would not of been able to force those type of reps on us. 

 

This whole narrative about Alpha being shit and entering late seems fishy to me too, given that they entered only a day later than your actual allies. Your biggest coup in that war was to convince Arrgh that we are some sort of hegemoney, and take the money to war, followed by being helped by Alpha.

Edited by Saru

200px-UPN.svg.png

Second in Command of UPN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This analogy doesn't really work because it carries an assumption that attacking is inherently wrong and then requires damages to be paid. If that was the case, you'd owe us from last time.

Breaking into the house is only wrong if you get caught. Otherwise it's opportunism and people are naturally opportunistic - I'm pretty sure that was a point addressed several pages back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This whole narrative about Alpha being shit and entering late seems fishy to me too, given that they entered only a day later than your actual allies. Your biggest coup in that war was to convince Arrgh that we are some sort of hegemoney, and take the money to war, followed by being helped by Alpha.

 

 

This one primarily comes from a sense of disappointment which quite a few in our coalition had over Alpha cooperativeness at the time. Slow build up, late entry while others had to go in semi-prepared etcetera. There were some mishaps in our peace talks as well which led to additional frustration. Most of it was kept wayside and out of the public.

This whole narrative about Alpha being shit and entering late seems fishy to me too, given that they entered only a day later than your actual allies. Your biggest coup in that war was to convince Arrgh that we are some sort of hegemoney, and take the money to war, followed by being helped by Alpha.

 

os9LcJK.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This one primarily comes from a sense of disappointment which quite a few in our coalition had over Alpha cooperativeness at the time. Slow build up, late entry while others had to go in semi-prepared etcetera. There were some mishaps in our peace talks as well which led to additional frustration. Most of it was kept wayside and out of the public.

 

Well I don't know what happened, but my point is moreso focused on the criticism of their entry. They literally came in just a day later than the first actual allies of yours that countered us, and Alpha declared on the same day as Guardian. Even in the scheme of the whole war, there were other allies of yours that came in later than them.

Edited by Saru

200px-UPN.svg.png

Second in Command of UPN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was 2 days later than the first counter on us. VE hitting someone else instead of Arrgh is very likely had Alpha not stepped in -- possibly drawing in some others such as Cornerstone if anyone countered them, Rose somewhat hinted that they may do something -- but Alpha entering cut off any communications of it, so I don't know how serious they were.

 

 

Again, you are assuming there would not of been a fear of retaliation because it was in large part Alpha's entrance that ensured there wouldn't be retaliation.

 

 

Not sure if I understood you correctly here but the Covenant was not at its current set up. Like I said it was a lot more active, on all fronts. 

 

 

We are not discussing a case of all things being equal if Alpha did not enter, because the point is the situation wouldn't of been equal... You cannot objectively say that you would of been able to drag down everybody, when you don't know which other alliances could of entered/where VE would of been placed (perhaps BoC wouldn't have surrendered, or VE caused someone else to surrender). You just don't know... and like Pre if you are claiming you do, then you are being dishonest imo, or alternatively making an honest mistake by having a narrow minded view (in the sense that you only focus on the Alpha damage dealt only, instead of how the war would of played out by considering all variables).

 

 

Obviously I am not ignoring his views. Just look at the last few pages.

 

 

I didn't say we would of won had either Alpha/Arrgh not entered. I said it may of been a possibility had both not entered. What I said was that if either of them did not enter, then it would of likely been a stalemate -- in the sense that you would not of been able to force those type of reps on us. 

 

This whole narrative about Alpha being shit and entering late seems fishy to me too, given that they entered only a day later than your actual allies. Your biggest coup in that war was to convince Arrgh that we are some sort of hegemoney, and take the money to war, followed by being helped by Alpha.

Do you think VE would have been able to take on Mensa at full strength one on one? If not, I don't see how your side would've won (unless maybe Rose entered) because that's what was needed.

 

UPN would not have been able to hit Mensa due to your treaty, DEIC and BoC's mid tiers were already dead, and DEIC's upper tier was well out of range. Mensa was fully militarized at the start of the war and took only minimal damage against BoC and were back to max 1-2 days after hitting them. VE only hit Arrgh 5 days after Mensa countered BoC so VE was clearly not ready for a quick counter against Mensa and by the time VE would have been ready Mensa would definitely have been back to max military.

 

The first counter was Mensa vs BoC which came 1 day into the war. Alpha hit UPN 4 days into the war, so yes I would say that was somewhat late. Don't mean to insult Alpha, Guardian was only ready 1 day earlier (but it didn't make sense to hit UPN alone without Alpha's support), and Alpha didn't have much of a reason to be militarized until the war already started, but in terms of providing critical relief, usually the key battles of wars happen in the first couple days if not first few hours. If you enter 4 days in, the people you're hitting have likely completely destroyed their opponents and rebuilt their military to max or just about so it doesn't matter much if you enter 4 days after or 10 days after other than entering 10 days after means it'll take an extra 6 days to achieve the same result.

Edited by Memph
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just give up talking to saru. He's got his head too firmly lodged up his own ass to see any sort of light. He has no grasp on what actually happened and for some reason is trying to cling to alpha as being the reason his side got destroyed. His side would have been destroyed with or without alpha. I was one of alphas most active fights and I didn't turn any tides that weren't turning on their own. What lost them that war was poor planning. Poor execution. Poor leadership. It's. It surprising on that last one considering Saru in this thread. Keep pushing your head deeper into your own ass. I'll just be here laughing each pathetic post you make. Thanks for the continual entertainment.

scSqPGJ.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He has no grasp on what actually happened and for some reason is trying to cling to alpha as being the reason his side got destroyed.

 

I haven't said that Alpha is the sole reason our side got destroyed. I have said that Alpha entering had negative consequences for our side. I also said that either Alpha or Arrgh not entering would of caused issues for them, and made it significantly harder to push those terms onto us (how it would of played out, we will not know, because of the different variables involved at the time). By definition that's a different outcome to the war. And like in my original point, I said that if BOTH Alpha and Arrgh did not enter, then I am confident in saying that there would of been no reps, and the war would of been a lot more interesting. I suppose the concept of nuance just flies over your head though. 

 

What lost them that war was poor planning. Poor execution. Poor leadership.

 

 

I've already said multiple times in multiple threads that the planning and execution of it all was poor. That was never denied, and not the sole point of discussion. A relatively 'bad' situation caused by those factors can be easily exacerbated into one of no hope by other factors -- such as Arrgh and Alpha entering.

Edited by Saru

200px-UPN.svg.png

Second in Command of UPN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

200px-UPN.svg.png

Second in Command of UPN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Sometimes, I feel like the only reason you talk to me is to further your own agenda.

 

:(

  • Upvote 5

 

os9LcJK.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and the Guidelines of the game and community.