Rose's Surrender

[Prefontaine]

Just a follow up point in terms of even wars. Had Arrgh and Alpha not entered in Oktoberfest, it would of been the closest or "fairest" perhaps by far. If I recall correctly your side wasn't unprepared, and while we had the first move advantage -- this would likely be offset by more coordination and activity on your side. It would be interesting to know what the outcome would of been.

 

Alpha came in late and only hit a few UPN targets. I was apart of it. We didn't impact much that wasn't going to happen already. 

[Eumirbago]

Just a follow up point in terms of even wars. Had Arrgh and Alpha not entered in Oktoberfest, it would of been the closest or "fairest" perhaps by far. If I recall correctly your side wasn't unprepared, and while we had the first move advantage -- this would likely be offset by more coordination and activity on your side. It would be interesting to know what the outcome would of been.

Lel Arrgh was beiging everyone like crazy. I guess you guys didn't/don't understand how beige works.

[Saru]

Alpha came in late and only hit a few UPN targets. I was apart of it. We didn't impact much that wasn't going to happen already. 

 

Alpha and Arrgh both coming in changed things drastically. The way I recall it atleast is that we had tS in trouble at one point, they were getting back into it as time went on, but then the fresh alliances with full builds coming in completely wiped out our near max built up guys... which obviously has a massive effect because a lot of the guys in war were relying on them to get the forces of the enemies down so they could attack and so on.

[Saru]

Lel Arrgh was beiging everyone like crazy. I guess you guys didn't/don't understand how beige works.

 

We were the one of, if not the first, big alliance to publicly denounce it, despite people taking the piss out of 80% of UPN being beiged. But maybe it was before your time.

 

If you really didn't need the help and were so comfortable why did you reach out to pay them, followed with the claims of if we win the game will never be the same/our dominance is too great etc etc...

 

Perhaps they started to beige en-masse when they realised that noone in the coalition gave a !@#$ about them. 

Edited October 3, 2016 by Saru

[Prefontaine]

Alpha and Arrgh both coming in changed things drastically. The way I recall it atleast is that we had tS in trouble at one point, they were getting back into it as time went on, but then the fresh alliances with full builds coming in completely wiped out our near max built up guys... which obviously has a massive effect because a lot of the guys in war were relying on them to get the forces of the enemies down so they could attack and so on.

 

There were only a few targets for us to actually hit. Those targets could have provided some help for the current round and maybe briefly into the next round of war but would have ultimately been overrun from updeclares likely days after Alpha had declared, had they not declared. As someone fighting for Alpha, I felt bored and disappointed we didn't expand the front to include DEIC. 

[Saru]

There were only a few targets for us to actually hit. Those targets could have provided some help for the current round and maybe briefly into the next round of war but would have ultimately been overrun from updeclares likely days after Alpha had declared, had they not declared. As someone fighting for Alpha, I felt bored and disappointed we didn't expand the front to include DEIC. 

 

Well "few" because we were already involved in a coalition wide war, and the "few" targets you had found were the ones we were relying on. Sometimes its fine margins that decide things, as the elimination of those guys on our upper tier ment that we were losing out on dishing out a lot more damage (not from just their attacks, but all of the other people who could consequently then attack and so on). I don't know if I am recalling it correctly, but from memory I think we on a coalition level, were winning in the lower tiers, and the high tiers. On a coalition wide level, there is no way they would of been able to impose those kind of terms on us imo if Arrgh and Alpha did not enter, it would of been a stalemate -- which would of had very different consequences for the game. (as would us not of attacking in the first place, but that's another topic lol)

Edited October 3, 2016 by Saru

[MrsPigeon]

Wew lad this is pathetic. It's just sad to see hopeful alliances become such sore losers. This is a game. Learn how to play it or lose.

[Eumirbago]

We were the one of, if not the first, big alliance to publicly denounce it, despite people taking the piss out of 80% of UPN being beiged. But maybe it was before your time.

 

If you really didn't need the help and were so comfortable why did you reach out to pay them, followed with the claims of if we win the game will never be the same/our dominance is too great etc etc...

 

Perhaps they started to beige en-masse when they realised that noone in the coalition gave a !@#$ about them.

To make sure that you guys get rekt through and through.

 

Maybe. Too bad you guys aren't good enough to capitalize on it lmfao.

[Saru]

Way to cherry pick a point I've already conceded in a previous post to add absolutely nothing of any value to the conversation.

 

I didn't see it. I am pretty sure tab I had open only had the message I referenced, or maybe I just missed it, certainly wasn't intentional. 

 

I read your posts now, and whilst you say you conceded the point... you really didn't. You still went on to talk about how "statistically" it was even. Well if by statistically you just mean score, then yeah, it was more or less even. If you were going to be honest about all of the meaningful stats, you would admit that you were at an advantage in a lot of the wars.

 

Not that I am saying that advantage discounts what you successfully carried on a planning/coordination level -- because we've been in positions of advantages (I would argue before Oktoberfest UPN was probably in the strongest position the game had ever seen, besides arguably Guardian in the early days) and didn't make it count.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Saru

[Prefontaine]

Well "few" because we were already involved in a coalition wide war, and the "few" targets you had found were the ones we were relying on. Sometimes its fine margins that decide things, as the elimination of those guys on our upper tier ment that we were losing out on dishing out a lot more damage (not from just their attacks, but all of the other people who could consequently then attack and so on). I don't know if I am recalling it correctly, but from memory I think we on a coalition level, were winning in the lower tiers, and the high tiers. On a coalition wide level, there is no way they would of been able to impose those kind of terms on us imo if Arrgh and Alpha did not enter, it would of been a stalemate -- which would of had very different consequences for the game. (as would us not of attacking in the first place, but that's another topic lol)

 

When you're hinging the success of a war that has about a thousand people in it on the success of a few nations, then you've already lost. Basically I disagree with you, and you'll disagree with me. So instead of failing to convince each other to see things how the other does over the course of several posts, I'm just gonna see myself out of this thread.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Prefontaine

[Buorhann]

Just FYI, Mensa had a lot more members than it does now.  Think we had somewhere in the 70s or 80s?  Now we've stabilized with 50ish.

[LordRahl2]

I barely even noticed when BK signed a random treaty with Mensa, but apparently it's the sign of the end times, proof that the game is dead, and a CB for every alliance in the game to rally against us.

 

awwww, I noticed.  I was a Yuge proponent of allying with BK.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by LordRahl2

[Saru]

When you're hinging the success of a war that has about a thousand people in it on the success of a few nations, then you've already lost. Basically I disagree with you, and you'll disagree with me. So instead of failing to convince each other to see things how the other does over the course of several posts, I'm just gonna see myself out of this thread.

 

It wasn't just "a few" nations that were effected by Arrgh and Alpha entering. It had big ramifications on the entire war. The few that you are referring to are the ones in UPN that still had virtually max builds, and that Alpha and Guardian together had taken out as they were fresh, and I don't think just Guardian could of done the same at the time -- from what I heard Guardian (or maybe it was another alliance, can't remember which) weren't keen on the war and it was Alpha's entry that swayed them for it. A lot of our slots were taken -- but we weren't losing in all of them. So it's not like the war had already been decided at this point. Another key thing was, with Arrgh's unexpected entrance, VE was put onto them. Had they not enterred, VE would of been able to provide massive relief in other areas. I feel like you are looking at the war purely from the perspective you were in and wanting to find targets, as opposed to considering the outcome on a coalition wide level. 

Edited October 3, 2016 by Saru

[Memph]

Well "few" because we were already involved in a coalition wide war, and the "few" targets you had found were the ones we were relying on. Sometimes its fine margins that decide things, as the elimination of those guys on our upper tier ment that we were losing out on dishing out a lot more damage (not from just their attacks, but all of the other people who could consequently then attack and so on). I don't know if I am recalling it correctly, but from memory I think we on a coalition level, were winning in the lower tiers, and the high tiers. On a coalition wide level, there is no way they would of been able to impose those kind of terms on us imo if Arrgh and Alpha did not enter, it would of been a stalemate -- which would of had very different consequences for the game. (as would us not of attacking in the first place, but that's another topic lol)

From what I remember DEIC and UPN were definitely winning against TEst and Syndicate. BoC didn't do an as good job with their SK targets so SK was doing better than Syndicate and TEst and BoC were vulnerable to counters which allowed Mensa to tear through them when they countered. BK and TKR then countered DEIC and were having success against their lower and mid tier but lost the few upper tier nations they had. Then Arrgh provided some relief for t$ and SK mid tier by hitting UPN's mid tier and Alpha and Guardian took out UPN's upper tier a couple days later. Guardian then took a hit from DEIC in the upper tiers who we weren't prepared to deal with but DEIC seemed to lack the killer instinct to finish us off so Mensa, SK and Guardian just gradually updeclared on DEIC instead. UPN's lower tier remained largely undefeated throughout the war, mainly because BK's treaty prevented them from finishing them off.

 

However, Alpha and Guardian only hit UPN four days into the war and Arrgh hit UPN two days into the war. VE only countered Arrgh four days after their entry and 6 days into the war. I don't think our side was particularly prepared for war, definitely Alpha and Guardian initially weren't, which is why it took us a while to enter. I think our side's wins in the last two wars largely relied on our ability to move from one target to another and respond to counters quickly. Your side failed to do that in Oktoberfest whether that's due to diplomatic reasons or lack of coordination between allies leaders or lack of military competence.

[Aerys Targaryen]

Another key thing was, with Arrgh's unexpected entrance, VE was put onto them. Had they not enterred, VE would of been able to provide massive relief in other areas.

 

Nope, at that war, VE was simply not helping in other fronts. It looked like they deliberately took the easy target and had no intention to help out against other alliances.

[Saru]

Nope, at that war, VE was simply not helping in other fronts. It looked like they deliberately took the easy target and had no intention to help out against other alliances.

 

I know what happened.

 

They would of helped elsewhere had Arrgh not entered. 

[Aerys Targaryen]

TKR is a lapdog and VE and SK went with Rose.

 

This statement simply shows your bias. Using the word 'lapdog' to describe TKR's decision to help their ally, but using a more neutral word to describe VE/SK's decision to support Rose.

[Saru]

Then Arrgh provided some relief for t$ and SK mid tier by hitting UPN's mid tier and Alpha and Guardian took out UPN's upper tier a couple days later. Guardian then took a hit from DEIC in the upper tiers who we weren't prepared to deal with but DEIC seemed to lack the killer instinct to finish us off so Mensa, SK and Guardian just gradually updeclared on DEIC instead. UPN's lower tier remained largely undefeated throughout the war, mainly because BK's treaty prevented them from finishing them off.

 

I think your analysis was pretty fair, but my question is still this... had the two alliances without treaty obligations not jumped into the war (Alpha and Arrgh). It would of ment Arrgh wouldn't provide the relief for the mid tier of SK and tS. UPN's upper tier would still of been functioning, as Guardian weren't going to be able to wipe us out by themselves I feel (and maybe you can clarify the rumour I heard that Guardian were hessitant to enter, but did cause Alpha did). So DEIC would of been able to have an easier time with Guardian than they did at first, given UPN's free upper tiers. Then you would be relying on updeclares, but we would have VE coming in fresh to help... Do you think you would of been able to impose those terms on us?. Genuine question btw. I don't think so.

[Aerys Targaryen]

I know what happened.

 

They would of helped elsewhere had Arrgh not entered. 

 

Most of their nations were not engaged with Arrgh, they could've done the same even with Arrgh's entry.

 

Arrgh, Noir, The Coalition, Guardian and Alpha, all declared war on UPN (around the same time). VE declared war on just Arrgh in defence of UPN while leaving the rest. Do you need more?

[Best Leader]

I just read 19 pages of this crap and all I got from it is that commies gonna commie and Roquentin's tears could end California's drought.

[Saru]

Most of their nations were not engaged with Arrgh, they could've done the same even with Arrgh's entry.

 

Arrgh, Noir, The Coalition, Guardian and Alpha, all declared war on UPN (around the same time). VE declared war on just Arrgh in defence of UPN while leaving the rest. Do you need more?

 

Yes they were. Arrgh were decimated by VE -- and wanted to surrender at one point. We didn't let them as it was the only leverage we had. Issue was that the coalition we faced obviously didn't care about them. Which is understandable. When I am telling you VE would of been free to hit someone else, I am not discussing a maybe, it would of happened... Arrgh coming in took us by surprise. And there were other reasons on why we settled on them hitting Arrgh, but the fact remains if Arrgh did not enter, VE would of hit someone else.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Saru

[Prefontaine]

It wasn't just "a few" nations that were effected by Arrgh and Alpha entering. It had big ramifications on the entire war. The few that you are referring to are the ones in UPN that still had virtually max builds, and that Alpha and Guardian together had taken out as they were fresh, and I don't think just Guardian could of done the same at the time -- from what I heard Guardian (or maybe it was another alliance, can't remember which) weren't keen on the war and it was Alpha's entry that swayed them for it. A lot of our slots were taken -- but we weren't losing in all of them. So it's not like the war had already been decided at this point. Another key thing was, with Arrgh's unexpected entrance, VE was put onto them. Had they not enterred, VE would of been able to provide massive relief in other areas. I feel like you are looking at the war purely from the perspective you were in and wanting to find targets, as opposed to considering the outcome on a coalition wide level. 

 

I don't believe I ever mentioned Arrgh mattering or not. I also never mentioned Guardian. I merely said Alpha's involvement was ultimately unimportant due to the fact that they only helped finish a front that was going to win anyway. Only replied cus I accidentally opened all recent posts and saw that you forgot to actual read my posts and substituted your own words in place of the ones I actually used. Please read. It's important. Guardian was going to enter with or without us entering, it just made sense to work together on the timing aspect of it with round 2 etc.. 

 

Anyway, stop being obtuse. 

 

[Saru]

I don't believe I ever mentioned Arrgh mattering or not. I also never mentioned Guardian. I merely said Alpha's involvement was ultimately unimportant due to the fact that they only helped finish a front that was going to win anyway. Only replied cus I accidentally opened all recent posts and saw that you forgot to actual read my posts and substituted your own words in place of the ones I actually used. Please read. It's important. Guardian was going to enter with or without us entering, it just made sense to work together on the timing aspect of it with round 2 etc.. 

 

Anyway, stop being obtuse. 

 

Maybe you are the one not reading then. You referenced a point where I explicitly said Arrgh and Alpha... Then continued to say that we would of lost on that front. Well I am saying I disagree, because had Arrgh not entered, VE would of hit elsewhere. DEIC and UPN were winning in the "high tiers" prior to Alpha's entry (I brought in Guardian because you hit together, and they wouldn't of been able to do it by themselves). Just because you didn't find slots does not mean we were in all losing wars in those slots, also with VE's involvement the updeclares you are saying would of happened would of been made difficult.

 

There were also certain discussions we had with Pubstomper/Rose, which ended once Alpha entered (although who knows how they would of actually materialised).

Edited October 3, 2016 by Saru

[Prefontaine]

Maybe you are the one not reading then. You referenced a point where I explicitly said Arrgh and Alpha... Then continued to say that we would of lost on that front. 

 

 

"Alpha came in late and only hit a few UPN targets. I was apart of it. We didn't impact much that wasn't going to happen already. "

 

Sometimes I forget how truly stupid you are. "Alpha came in late.", "I was apart of it.", " We didn't impact much"... Because clearly that we references something besides Alpha (Note: Sarcasm, since I need to spell things out for you). Saru, please put me on ignore. I'm afraid I'm going to catch your mind boggling level of stupidity. Next time just admit you're wrong, or stay silent. Either or. Because honestly I'm almost embarrassed for your lack of reading skills.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by Prefontaine

[Saru]

Not even sure what those empty quotes are supposed to mean lol...