Senatorius Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 I don't think the CS-UPN treaty ever resulted in it being activated by either side because it was pre-total coalition war and politics at the time.. hence it was dropped... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatkitteh Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 I don't think the CS-UPN treaty ever resulted in it being activated by either side because it was pre-total coalition war and politics at the time.. hence it was dropped... CS wanted to demote it, UPN said !@#$ off Quote :sheepy: :sheepy: Greatkitteh was here.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senatorius Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 I think you are right about the demote part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatkitteh Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 But UPN didnt want another BK Quote :sheepy: :sheepy: Greatkitteh was here.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senatorius Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 That makes sense and no one in CS is resentful... the treaty as it stood just wasn't aiding anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restius Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 This isn't factually accurate in any way. TKR let NPO get rolled instead of honoring an MDP. CS moved away from UPN. Sparta moved to your side (before the merge). BK cancelled UPN. tS cancelled Alpha to create the next gobal war. That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more. The problem is like CS/Sparta, etc, they dropped treaties to pick the winning side. Sparta dropped it's allies verbatim because they "wanted to be on the winning side". I'm picking them out because I have the log. I would wager to guess that alliances like CS and many others did the exact same thing. The only reason this war even happened vs. a total curbstomp vs. our sphere and then Rose sphere is because you were so open about wanting to roll Rose or SK. They realized that was exactly what your side was planning to do and reacted. Re-acted.... CS has "moved sides" simply due to relationship and leadership changes. Our treaty with UPN was cancelled because we remained neutral during a war due to conflict of interests, and thought it was respectful to cancel our treaty following that due to relationship strains following the end of that conflict, and out of respect to them for us not being able to hold our end of the bargain. The cancellation with VE was also a sad day for me because we had been friends with them for so long, but again during the last war our other allies needed help and we wound up attacking Sparta who was a direct ally of VE, which we are also. Their cancellation, as sad as it was, was completely justified and understandable. What good are creating allied relationships if they wind up attacking on another? Anywho, my point is, our relationships have less to do with sides more than the simple fact of creating relationships with other players. Our treaties are birthed from relationships and experiences between players and not on popularity contests. As For my Personal Opinion I find two-sided mega wars rather boring and sometimes predictable, but this goes with any game I've ever played. Three-sided setups are worse, and the one game I played that had a four-sided setup was actually rather awesome. Sometimes these sides would go two on two, other times it would be four on four or a variety of other conflicts like that happening at the same time. Regardless of all that, Orbis is created strictly by how the players interact and decide. Which is something that is pretty awesome! If our community decides two have two sides that duke it out for years, so be it. But we can also decide when and how this changes unlike other games where you must be a part of team a or team b. So as for the state of Orbis, it's pretty unique 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phiney Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Perhaps you are thinking of the "Marionette War", where Guardian, Rose, SK and TEst warred with TC (UPN, DEIC, EoS, BoC) -- no one else entered in this one. The next world war after that was the VE war, where Guardian/Mensa/SK declared on VE, and UPN jumped in to help. And in between that the only thing of significance was GPA getting rolled. That's the ticket cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aisha Greyjoy Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 The obvious answer is that the competent winners each take a loser alliance under their wing as a protectorate/slave/farm and then the winners battle it out next war, with the losers fighting on behalf of the winners. Maybe the winners can even stop fighting, so when TKR gets mad at t$, they'll send TKR-Slave-Rose to hit t$-Slave-UPN. Then when UPN and Rose are totally wrecked again, TKR and t$ can make up and end the war and demand huge reps from UPN to TKR and Rose to t$. Quote Duke of House Greyjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aisha Greyjoy Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Stuff Man, it seems like you are laying out a bunch of suboptimal choices you made that helped us get to here. Quote Duke of House Greyjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saru Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) Man, it seems like you are laying out a bunch of suboptimal choices you made that helped us get to here. You can read, well done. I believe it is just an honest reflection of events (from my perspective atleast), and obviously with the benefit of hindsight and looking at the state of Orbis now, it is easy to see what mistakes were made. Edited September 15, 2016 by Saru 1 Quote Second in Command of UPN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatkitteh Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 You can read, well done. I believe it is just an honest reflection of events (from my perspective atleast), and obviously with the benefit of hindsight and looking at the state of Orbis now, it is easy to see what mistakes were made. In UPN we didnt rill saru Quote :sheepy: :sheepy: Greatkitteh was here.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeeeet Ronny D Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Man, it seems like you are laying out a bunch of suboptimal choices you made that helped us get to here. kinda similar to all the sub optimal choices Guardian made to go from the top power in the game to a minor bit player that it is today. I wanted to drop CS the day they decided that fighting a war for 2 days was enough for them. I also believe we (atleast I was) leaning toward signing UPN over Rose, but it seemed like UPN went silent and was jerking us around (was it the case? beats me, but it seemed like it to me), so we decided to team up with Rose instead. Which also sucked because it !@#$ed up our relationship with BK at the time as well because BK was asking us about aligning with Rose, but Impero said not to, and then we turned around and allied Rose. As for the tS shenanigans Part got caught with his hand in the cookie jar which started the rift, but Impero !@#$ed up when he posted on the tS forums that he wanted tS to drop Part as leader. There you go, Orbis history in the eyes of SRD! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boony Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 You can read, well done. That made me lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeiffer Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 If you don't feel like reading all of Saru's post like two pages back, the tl;dr is the following: Impero is an idiot Saru never should've taken a break Ole is a !@#$boy UPN shoulda rolled with 24/7 so they could obtain greater bro status with my people 1 Quote ☾☆ Chairman Emeritus of Mensa HQ ☾☆ "It's not about the actual fish, themselves. Fish are not important in this context. It's about fish-ing, the act of fishing itself." -Jack O'Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TellUrGrlThx Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Cynic actually spoke to me directly about the leaks, so the info did not come from VE. Just to give some context: UPN had a good relationship with VE, and we assumed with tS -- due to us deciding to jump into the Guardian v VE war, when they were the dominant side without a treaty and an obligation to. After the war was over we were on the verge of signing a treaty with VE. At the time I was running UPN's FA and some real life stuff came up and I wasn't online for a few days, in which Impero made the decision to act and the group of tS/VE/Rose came about. Funnily enough it was Rose's inclusion that was the most surprising. Anyway our relationship with VE was still good, even though we understood at some point down the line we will clash, as a natural consequence of us being in the two biggest blocs/spheres at the time. However VE gave assurances that they appreciated the help with Guardian, and that they will not attack us any time soon for the sake of attacking and gaining power. Whereas tS wanted exactly that, and saw it silly to hold off on what they saw as the inevitable when they had the advantage, which was true because I knew our only chance of winning that war was going to be if they break apart -- although I assumed it would be tS/VE and Rose splintering at first. Anyway tS wanting to go after UPN as soon as, and VE disagreeing and wanting to go after the likes of TEst instead is what drove the wedge between them I believe. In the end tS left Paragon, and we had a legit CB to hit them, and they were vulnerable -- but we didn't. Shortly after we signed an MDP with Mensa and Mensa signed with tS at the same time, and then the Proxy War happened, and while we did not enter on their behalf in the war, we essentially made sure that Mensa were not countered in it and that's a big reason why they were able to do as well as they done. I had my suspicions that maybe some in the Mensa community and gov didn't appreciate this, and moreso appreciated the likes of tS/TKR/BK/Guardian rolling with them directly. After the war UPN was a clear #1, allied to the key players of all spheres. This is in and around the time where Pre would complain on the radio that we were tied to around 80% of the top 15 or whatever the stat was. Anyway we had reasons to believe that Mensa saw themselves as part of the "Syndisphere group", and that Syndicate were going to target us in the future. I took a break from the game again, and UPN had decided to proactively go after Syndicate to prevent them from getting us in the future, and this is the mistake that defined the game I feel and made UPN lose its position of power. Stats wise UPN was seen as some sort of hegemoney, even though the stats didn't give an accurate presentation of everything -- but for that reason I feel like the likes of Alpha and Arrgh decided to get involved in the conflict. Also going head on against the Syndicate ment that we lost the Mensa treaty, which to me was really important -- because I knew that we needed them onside. (Another problem is that the relationship was heavily based on just me and Pfeiffer, as opposed to the two alliances). So yeah from my perspective at least I feel like not hitting tS when we hard clear evidence of them coming after us, then protecting Mensa from getting countered in the war, meaning they grew relatively stronger to many but not helping them directly meaning that they saw their other allies as closer to them, and then finally going into Syndicate head on, which further consolidated that sphere, and we lost the war in devastating fashion and were subject to big reparations, were the combined factors in the "Syndisphere" becoming dominant. You thought you had the treaty agreed. A few of our government members who were pro-Syndicate decided to try and push the treaty under the table without consulting all of the government members. So there wasn't even an official vote for it. I can't recall the specifics of it, but I remember tS being in some sort of potential trouble in and around at this time -- and in my head it seemed that tS just appear during these times to try and get more support. Anyway my problem with it was that I felt some of the government were doing shady shit so I called them out in the government forums and Hans raised the issue with the membership, of which the majority agreed that they did not want the tS treaty. The feeling was that we will judge you on your actions as opposed to your words, as trusting your words had been detrimental to us in the past. So when we put a stop to the treaty talks, but said we are open to further discussion and will judge you based on your actions, you literally attacked us in like a week lol. Which is obviously fair enough from a strategic point of view, but left a sour taste in our mouths. And for the record the pro-tS guys who tried to push the treaty through without following the procedures and consulting all the gov ended up forming a splinter alliance after losing the elections and signed a protectorate with tS. The government do vote on their treaties, after a discussion. That was why the tS thing fell through, because some people tried to push it through without a discussion with all of the government and advisors, and without an official vote. -Spinning shit to sound like Mensa already had picked a side for octoberfest kek Saru you weren't there so I am more than willing to provide logs if asked but we were trying very hard to avoid the conflict that UPN started. t$ even made great strides to please your stubborn leadership into believing they had no interest in hitting any ally's ally. Also we brought you both into a channel and said don't start a fight because the person that starts it is gonna get dropped and !@#$ed hard by us. It's not your fault Saru it was 100% Han's fault for being a dumbass so the fall of UPN as you mention can all be blamed on the leader you guys just reelected. Everything else is speculation and mostly wrong related to Mensa. Good day. 2 Quote ☾☆ Priest of Dio º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ GOD EMPEROR DIO BRANDO¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ DIO BRANDO GOD EMPEROR¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eumirbago Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Personally, I prefer Hans as leader :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saru Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) -Spinning shit to sound like Mensa already had picked a side for octoberfest kek Saru you weren't there so I am more than willing to provide logs if asked but we were trying very hard to avoid the conflict that UPN started. t$ even made great strides to please your stubborn leadership into believing they had no interest in hitting any ally's ally. Also we brought you both into a channel and said don't start a fight because the person that starts it is gonna get dropped and !@#$ed hard by us. It's not your fault Saru it was 100% Han's fault for being a dumbass so the fall of UPN as you mention can all be blamed on the leader you guys just reelected. Everything else is speculation and mostly wrong related to Mensa. Good day. What are you talking about? Not sure what you are reading into. "I had my suspicions that maybe some in the Mensa community and gov didn't appreciate this, and moreso appreciated the likes of tS/TKR/BK/Guardian rolling with them directly." How exactly is talking about the suspicions I held and possibilities that I had considered, spin? I think it is pretty clear that I am speaking about my own opinion at the time, based on my talks with Pfeiffer. Besides is it really that controversial to say that some in Mensa grew closer to Syndicate, Guardian, BK and TKR because they rolled with you against Rose, as opposed to us who opted to help you from the sidelines and make sure you weren't countered? Like I said, I felt that this could of been a possibility. Nowhere did I say that you had picked a side... And I was gone for a short while (funnily enough in the most critical time period), that doesn't mean I am ignorant of what took place. While I did not agree with Hans in regards to going after tS, I completely understand why he would take tS's attempts at convincing us that they won't hit us with a grain of salt. We bailed tS out in the war with Guardian and co without an obligation to do so -- and worked well with them actually. Literally after that, they started to plot to have us rolled next, despite giving us multiple assurances that this won't happen. You can't blame Hansarius on considering past precedent, when they had given us assurances of not attacking us whilst proactively plotting against us before. Edited September 15, 2016 by Saru 1 Quote Second in Command of UPN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TellUrGrlThx Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 What are you talking about? Not sure what you are reading into. "I had my suspicions that maybe some in the Mensa community and gov didn't appreciate this, and moreso appreciated the likes of tS/TKR/BK/Guardian rolling with them directly." How exactly is talking about the suspicions I held and possibilities that I had considered, spin? I think it is pretty clear that I am speaking about my own opinion at the time, based on my talks with Pfeiffer. Besides is it really that controversial to say that some in Mensa grew closer to Syndicate, Guardian, BK and TKR because they rolled with you against Rose, as opposed to us who opted to help you from the sidelines and make sure you weren't countered? Like I said, I felt that this could of been a possibility. Nowhere did I say that you had picked a side... And I was gone for a short while (funnily enough in the most critical time period), that doesn't mean I am ignorant of what took place. While I did not agree with Hans in regards to going after tS, I completely understand why he would take tS's attempts at convincing us that they won't hit us with a grain of salt. We bailed tS out in the war with Guardian and co without an obligation to do so -- and worked well with them actually. Literally after that, they started to plot to have us rolled next, despite giving us multiple assurances that this won't happen. You can't blame Hansarius on considering past precedent, when they had given us assurances of not attacking us whilst proactively plotting against us before. Quote ☾☆ Priest of Dio º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ GOD EMPEROR DIO BRANDO¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ DIO BRANDO GOD EMPEROR¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Then there wasn't enough of a reason for you to split up. You're right, there wasn't enough of a reason to split up because the effort wasn't given. I'm not complaining. I love this sphere. Each leader of their respective alliance in this sphere has been fantastic to work with. There's very little to no drama. 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquentin Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 I'm not complaining. I love this sphere. Each leader of their respective alliance in this sphere has been fantastic to work with. There's very little to no drama. That's exactly the problem and why it's going to be over in terms of a political game. There has to be drama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Yeah that was one where we worked with you In the end, but there was a big one before that where we were on the opposite side too. 2 years ago now so difficult to recall, pre knows more. @Phiney, @Partisan In the Great VE War, TEst initially joined the Guardian/SK/Mensa side until the whole Tenages plot was revealed and TEst wasn't kept in the loop of that, then they swapped sides. By the way, was Ragnar really the one who leaked Tenages' plot? Was that ever confirmed? 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquentin Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 @Phiney, @Partisan In the Great VE War, TEst initially joined the Guardian/SK/Mensa side until the whole Tenages plot was revealed and TEst wasn't kept in the loop of that, then they swapped sides. By the way, was Ragnar really the one who leaked Tenages' plot? Was that ever confirmed? No. He didn't and SK admitted it at the end. He didn't have access for it. Though it was funny we got hit by SK because of Ragnar, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aisha Greyjoy Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) Being in SK gov at the time, SK didn't figure out who leaked it. We had a technical backdoor left open, that someone used. We had no evidence it was Ragnar, merely the salty taste of his (then) recent bitter departure to fuel speculation. kinda similar to all the sub optimal choices Guardian made to go from the top power in the game to a minor bit player that it is today. If Guardian is a minor bit player, why did 2 front page alliances preempt Guardian 5 days ago? Edited September 15, 2016 by Aisha Greyjoy Quote Duke of House Greyjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yosodog Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) I also believe we (atleast I was) leaning toward signing UPN over Rose, but it seemed like UPN went silent and was jerking us around (was it the case? beats me, but it seemed like it to me), so we decided to team up with Rose instead. Which also sucked because it !@#$ed up our relationship with BK at the time as well because BK was asking us about aligning with Rose, but Impero said not to, and then we turned around and allied Rose. I remember this. We wanted to sign Rose, but VE wanted them to be isolated so they could later easily roll them. We eventually caved in and turned down the Rose treaty offer and then about a week later you guys decided to create Paragon. We were just a tad pissed. We then went back to Rose and was like "Hey, we can sign now!" and Keegoz was like "lol no". We wanted to bring Rose in the sphere but VE didn't like them worth a shit. Then UPN fell though and Rose was VE's backup plan. Looking back now, we should've just said "!@#$ you VE, we'll do what we want" but we were only a micro and a fairly insignificant player at that time and we just wanted what was best for the sphere. Oh well, ending up working in the end. Edited September 15, 2016 by Yosodog 2 Quote [22:37:51] <&Yosodog> Problem is, everyone is too busy deciding which top gun character they are that no decision has been made BK in a nutshell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquentin Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Being in SK gov at the time, SK didn't figure out who leaked it. We had a technical backdoor left open, that someone used. We had no evidence it was Ragnar, merely the salty taste of his (then) recent bitter departure to fuel speculation. If Guardian is a minor bit player, why did 2 front page alliances preempt Guardian 5 days ago? It was because Guardian likes to hit Rose in every war, basically and even though Guardian isn't as influential as it was in the past, they can still put a hurt on an alliance like Rose to due their tier concentration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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