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Declaration of War


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When we hit R&R we were bored and looking for a fight, not for them to fold immediately. Sadly they chose the latter and started bailing from the alliance as soon as wars were declared. I learned later that they had already chosen to disband. Overall was a letdown.

 

SD wasn't disbanded either, they just bailed en masse as soon as wars started. This was sad for a number of reasons, chief among them that they had some former members of Arrgh in there, poor showing fellows.

1. Arrgh raids alliance

2. Alliance merges into protector

 

You see how this could have been viewed as raiding alliances into disbandment. Which starts to look pretty hostile when it gets repeated with a few allied protectorates.

 

We had already militarized for a possible conflict and when Immeral Ilimaris hit TKR and Cornerstone, it looks very hostile.

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Your point is incorrect. SD had a treaty with Cornerstone, not you. R&R had a treaty with BoC, not you. I understand helping your allies however, but don't act like tkr is on some moral high ground right now. We never did anything directly to you.

Are you scrapping the bottom of the barrel so much that you're a "we didn't !@#$ with you directly" argument? This is laughable. SD and RnR were allies and friends of two of our allies, which makes them our friends. BoC's and Cornerstone's grievances are our grievances and we have a vested interested in both who they ally and what happens to those allies. You attacked TKR by proxy of SD and RnR twice but BoC and Cornerstone were willing to work things out. Then Arrgh raids TKR directly along with Cornerstone and the Black Knights and that talking period has passed its breaking point. You personally were too full of yourself in trying to throw more weight that your apparently were allowed, blame the war on RW on yourself personally.

 

Had you really had a problem, you could've came and talked to me. I'm a very caring person, I will always understand the position you're coming from. I paid reps to Rose the other day when I told Keegoz he was wrong- just to be nice and show that I'm considerate. I told DemonSpawn that I'd stop the raids and protect his AA, and give him rebuilding money- to correct a wrong that I did.

 

Don't say that you "gave us chances, and let us off the hook"(what are you, God?) when you didn't. You never came to anyone in any gov, I went to you several times asking about the buildup, asking if Arrgh or Roz Wei was the target. You could've said something, talked to us about the raids, about what you thought of it. You could've said something yesterday, when I came to you about 3 hours before the blitz.

 

You didn't. There is no moral high ground to stand on for you guys. At least Prefontaine, Partisan, they went to their enemies and tried to avoid war. Even Mensa has tried to avoid war and talked to people. You guys aren't winning the most honorable alliance this year.

RW and Arrgh were talked with when you raided SD, RW and Arrgh were talked with when Arrgh raided RnR. There is a certain point when someone gets sick of talking and that point was cross when Arrgh chose to raid The Knights Radiant. You both collectively used up what good will that was owed, collectively exhausted our patience, and collective poked us and our friends in the eye one too many times to be forgiven. Now we'll talk to you with our declarations.

 

No that is incorrect. SD died because it was a mess that had been ripped apart internally, had a bad reputation, and just didn't have the people left to keep it together.

 

Affiliated? It was one of your ally's protectorate so there is a connection certainly but making a meal of it I think.

 

SD was for all intents and purposes a fully functioning alliance that had just signed a treaty with RnR the day before they were attacked. Their disbandment while the roots may have been the poor leadeship was instigated by the raids launched by RW and Arrgh. Denying this fact is what the folks call, revisionist history. Even if they were going to disband due to incompetence they were still a treaty partner with BoC at the time Arrgh and RW decided to mass raid them. It still constitutes a grievance for BoC and TKR by proxy. I am not overplaying anything. Are you saying we don't have an interest in the status of our bloc partner's protectorate? We don't have an interest in the reputation of that bloc partner? It doesn't effect us at all if anyone is allowed to raid our ally's protectorate with impunity? Well, I'm sure you have the best interest of TKR at heart in all of your decision makings so maybe you know whats best for us more than our own government, but we feel those ARE and will continue to be core interests of The Knights Radiant.

 

I can admit my errors as I am to blame in certain aspects. Having Kastor as an officer isn't one of them however.

Thats cool, I suppose this war is not an error as well.

 

Hey TKR, if I hit Cornerstone would you protect them? Yes? Well done, you have just threatened me. I'll note it down as a reason when I first strike you.

 

You misunderstand, the time to consult me isn't before you launch your strikes no. The time is after the event of R&R is getting hit/disbanding you come to me and see how we can work past it. If it's then not sufficient then sure whatever, but you skipped that step. 

 

 

Thats very murky logic that can be used to justify any first strike on anybody even if they don't have a treaty. Alright then, I think it's been made clear enough that TKR's reason here on Roz Wei is a first strike because apparently all the defense treaties weren't enough.

I mean you can throw caution to the wind and not take into account who may and may not defend someone when you launch a war but we sure as hell won't. Does help you were party with the same two grievances we had with Arrgh. Difference of opinion I suppose. Our ownus to consult you on anything we do is as high as your ownus to consult us. You choose not to, we chose not to as well. Lets call it a wash.

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“ Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. â€

–The First Ideal of the Windrunners,

 

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>RW and Arrgh raids SD to death 

 

Well, this is mildly annoying and not the first time Arrgh has pecked at our periphery. BoC/Cornerstone you guys good with this? Worked something out? Ok but shit smells funny.

 

>Arrgh and RW good cop/bad cop RnR into trying to merge into them

 

This is !@#$ed up yo, seriously starting to get on my nerves/ Hey BoC/Cornersetone, if this shit happens to you we got your back.

 

>Arrgh Admiral raids TKR, Cornerstone and BK

 

Thats it, Arrgh is kill

 

No

 

Yes

 

RW threatened us with war if we hit Arrgh

 

RW is kill too

 

 

There you have it. Stop crying, its a result of your own actions. 

 

Since Roz explained everything you got wrong here in first 2 parts, I'll just expalin the last one to you. I hit an inactive, inactive, inactive and an inactive. They so happened to be TKR, Mensa, Cornerstone and Cornerstone. There was no political agenda there, just farming what is offerd for farming. Not my fault they quit playing the game and you guys still keepeing them in you alliance :P

Edited by DragonK
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Since Roz explained everything you got wrong here in first 2 parts, I'll just expalin the last one to you. I hit an inactive, inactive, inactive and an inactive. They so happened to be TKR, Mensa, Cornerstone and Cornerstone. There was no political agenda there, just farming what is offerd for farming. Not my fault they quit playing the game and you guys still keepeing them in you alliance :P

Nice to know Kastor's distaste for reading is not unique to him. 

 

I dont give two shits if you hit an innactive or Infinite Citadel himself. You hit a member of TKR and a member of Cornerstone, another member of Arrgh hit a member of the Black Knights.  Justify it as much as you want those are the facts. Unfortunate for Arrgh you had already worn down our patience with your alliance beforehand. If you want to try raid every inactive you please you and your alliance best be prepared to face the ramifications for your actions.

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“ Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. â€

–The First Ideal of the Windrunners,

 

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RW and Arrgh were talked with when you raided SD, RW and Arrgh were talked with when Arrgh raided RnR. There is a certain point when someone gets sick of talking and that point was cross when Arrgh chose to raid The Knights Radiant. You both collectively used up what good will that was owed, collectively exhausted our patience, and collective poked us and our friends in the eye one too many times to be forgiven. Now we'll talk to you with our declarations.

 

SD being hit who had a treaty with Cornerstone and R&R being hit who had a treaty with BoC was exhausting your patience? Why are you leading this attack again? What I do wonder was why never at any point was diplomacy attempted from TKR. Cornerstone incidents were handled fine and R&R well we didn't even have anything to do with that but I'd have likely dealt with it anyway in a agreeable manner.

 

SD was for all intents and purposes a fully functioning alliance that had just signed a treaty with RnR the day before they were attacked. Their disbandment while the roots may have been the poor leadeship was instigated by the raids launched by RW and Arrgh. Denying this fact is what the folks call, revisionist history. Even if they were going to disband due to incompetence they were still a treaty partner with BoC at the time Arrgh and RW decided to mass raid them. It still constitutes a grievance for BoC and TKR by proxy. I am not overplaying anything. Are you saying we don't have an interest in the status of our bloc partner's protectorate? We don't have an interest in the reputation of that bloc partner? It doesn't effect us at all if anyone is allowed to raid our ally's protectorate with impunity? Well, I'm sure you have the best interest of TKR at heart in all of your decision makings so maybe you know whats best for us more than our own government, but we feel those ARE and will continue to be core interests of The Knights Radiant.

 

SD was ugly inside and out and were on borrowed time, so like most such alliances they folded in a day (well less). This is not to insult them, they'd merely done some very costly silly decisions resulting in them losing many of their membership and they had estranged themselves with a lot of people so all they had left was a skeleton. 

 

Cornerstone and R&R are big boys and can handle these things and if you feel they're not up to it then have a joint protectorate. To try and write this off like we've waged a campaign against your interests is silly.

 

Thats cool, I suppose this war is not an error as well.

 

I'm not sure how you're making that connection with what I said. The official reason is very flimsy, to throw Kastor under the bus for it would be silly. I'll certainly be making some things clearer in future but that'll have to happen due to an error on my part. 

 

I mean you can throw caution to the wind and not take into account who may and may not defend someone when you launch a war but we sure as hell won't. Does help you were party with the same two grievances we had with Arrgh. Difference of opinion I suppose. Our ownus to consult you on anything we do is as high as your ownus to consult us. You choose not to, we chose not to as well. Lets call it a wash.

 

Thats fine, then lead with that. Seeing our supposed crimes against R&R plastered as the reason is nonsense. 

 

That is quite the false equivalency. TKR (as a surrogate for BoC?) not coming to us for diplomacy on the R&R issue is not comparable to us not going to SD's protector's treaty partner. If it works like that then where does it end? Should we have talked with Guardian also as they're your treaty partner? Then Sparta? Then... Anyway we sorted it with Cornerstone and there was a little hullabaloo later which was cleared up. The matter was sorted so if Cornerstone isn't following it up I have to wonder why TKR is. 

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Raided SD to death, ok thank you for not denying that. TKR affiliated alliance hit #1 check. Also, evidence of close RW/Arrgh cooperation and decision making with regards to raids.

 

Yeah, which is why I put in "you worked something out? ok." We didn't act as soon as the SD division stuff went down did we? We trusted the judgement of our allies and were content with the deal that they made. However, subsequent actions such as the RnR raids which is another TKR affiliate the Arrgh raid on us and our close allies proved too much for us to bear. The not so subtle threat by a member of RW government in a situation where we hit Arrgh was a threat we couldn't ignore. I'm sorry if we couldn't consult you directly about a plan to hit an alliance you had been working very closely with in the past couple of weeks. Something tells me we would have seen the typical Arrgh first strike.

 

I'm sorry, I was under impression everyone hated SD. I was one of biggest supporters of SD, even back when they were just Varagin Entete. Their actions disapointed me at every turn, and all the effort i put into them was in vain and could backfire against me. Besides, at the time, there really was no better target to raid, just like how TKR is raiding us for pretty much the same reason. You have no higer moral ground once you drop to your opponet's level. And to conclude it, we had 1 joint raid, it was more a drill than actaull operation, and I wasn't overlly happy with results. I didn't invite RW to raid with us (we had some minor skrimishes here and there, Polaris,...) until Mayor and baronus expressed the desire to raid again. Among all the possible targets, R&R wasn't the best option so I didn't suggest it. But Keza foudn they disbanded and remainign peopel were inactives with few people leaving soon. Keza and couple guys attacked R&R, I asked Roz if RW wishes to join and he declined. I doubt Keza was dealing with Kastor, probably said the guy to talk with Kastor about peace after Kastor aproached Keza (Keza and me do lots of stuff for no better reason thant giggles and lols) Kastor was scheming to force recruit people into RW, wich is his thing and I won't jusdge it. There was no coorporation between us, Arrgh did what Arrgh does independently of RW, and Kastor being an opportunist tried to grab a chance.

 

You trusted your allies decision, yet you bring it up as a reason for hitting us, clearly you don't agree with your

 allys decision taht we were in the right and you don't trust their judgment. Otherwise it's just we made a bad, no balls, backstabbing alliance called SD disband (you're welcome by the way, we killed it before it lay eggs) and I raided couple of inactives, for wich you could have queried me, I'm more than reasonable negotiator. Also there was option of just hitting me, I was prepared, instead you declared on 2 alliances. All in all you argument is weak and this is no more than show of power, so stop defening your position with flawed logic and false data, you came here to show who's strongest, so screw the rules and say: "Yeah, we did it, what'll you do about it, huh?". Also picking 2 weaker, papperless alliances is weak show of force, you should ahve rolled TEst and Pantheon, that'd be show of force everyone would remeber.

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tbh let's cut the bullshit here.

 

You wanted to fight in a war, tkr has gotten cocky. You believe you're the best in the game at the moment in terms of war(not top 5 though). You wanted to fight someone, which is why instead of trying diplomacy, you just attacked. Which is why instead of talking to some of our mutual friends about talking to us about the raids, you just attacked.

 

Enjoy your war, beating us means nothing. We've come back from worse and we'll come back again. We're a family and we don't abandon each other. Arrgh are our brothers and we will always have their back.

 

Aww, sweet, if we're ever hired to attack RW, I call dibs on Kastor and baronus. I love you too, in a very gay way. :wub:

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I mean you can continue to apologize for your paperless colleagues but downplaying the implications of the threat is going to be a bit harder. RW had demonstrated a blurring of the lines when it comes to Arrgh/RW decision making with Roz negotiating for Arrgh. Roz itself was party of the same grievances we had against Arrgh and we have the threat that you seem to think is trivial made on the eve of our war against Arrgh from a government member of an alliance closely affiliated with our target. Would that be enough to tip the balance in favor of rolling Roz along with Arrgh? Hell yeah it would and !@#$ yes we are going to take it into consideration. It just so happens that consideration pushed those who weren't in favor of rolling Roz over the edge. This is a classic case of talk shit get hit. Kastor should have shut his mouth and sparred his alliance a rolling. Saying anything to the contrary of this open and shut CB is just theater.

 

Again with so called ties. We are paperless. We don't have treatys. We're not obliged to do anything. And Kastor has no real power. RW might have tried to help us diplomatically. There are people I like in RW, jsut like there are people I like in other alliances. Like there were in SD for instance before they left it. I'd try to help them, maybe even threaten if I belived it could achive something, but would I really rally enitre Arrgh to help them? No, my duty and obligation to Arrgh, over my personal matters and ties. Only if Arrgh was most likely the next target would we interwene militarilly, and I hope Roz Wei would do the same, aka only interwene if both of us are in danger. Last thing we need is another damn block of former paperless alliances and chainwaring Orbis in yet another grand war (not that I dislike great wars, I actually like them the best XD).

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Yeah IDK why Immeral (DragonK here) did the big raid on not just you guys but a bunch of other people.  I think boredom may have reached critical mass

 

Mostly right on mark. SD raid was organized by me, but RW Leeroy Jenkinsed their way in all 3 guys I could hit. Poalris was again attacked by lower tiers, I just watched. R&R I didn't even get the enjoiment of organizing it and only guys I raided joined Arrgh and ceased existing close to end of war. Then Ezio came in and started nuking me, boy was I havign fun, but I missed something, the dosh. So I ended up seeing what I can gain from getting nuked 4th time by him. I timed it good if I say so myself, I ahd whole 5 days of fun with 4 inactives with roughly 4 times more army than me. Was good, except for Cornerstone buggign me with spys, but i guess me and Holmes reached an agreement in the end, or he let it go after he learned TKR is gonna roll me. Either way TKR could have jsut contacted me, I'd left Arrgh for them to roll me and then come back when they were done lol. I don't particuallry care about my infra, and even my precious army is easily rebuildable. I got what I wanted, 13th city and land expansions. Also I'll note here that I never took a city grant, and I only took loan once to speed up a raid. I build my 13 citys on raiding, and raiding alone. I think I'm proving a point here that you can play a game war only, and !@#$ off with econ shit, ans still reach 2k-3k points and reach up to 15 citys no problem.

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When we hit R&R we were bored and looking for a fight, not for them to fold immediately.  Sadly they chose the latter and started bailing from the alliance as soon as wars were declared.  I learned later that they had already chosen to disband.  Overall was a letdown.

 

SD wasn't disbanded either, they just bailed en masse as soon as wars started.  This was sad for a number of reasons, chief among them that they had some former members of Arrgh in there, poor showing fellows.

I remember that day lol SD had literally made some kind of paper with another alliance, disbanded like 4 hours afterwards, ran to Cornerstone.

 

10/10 biggest wtf shit-fest ever. Twas a good day.

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... isn't TKR allied to Pantheon? Why would TKR attack them?

 

A true show of strength would be proving you don't need allies and can take on the world alone.

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SD being hit who had a treaty with Cornerstone and R&R being hit who had a treaty with BoC was exhausting your patience? Why are you leading this attack again? What I do wonder was why never at any point was diplomacy attempted from TKR. Cornerstone incidents were handled fine and R&R well we didn't even have anything to do with that but I'd have likely dealt with it anyway in a agreeable manner.

Yeah it was. I don't know if the concept of an alliance sphere is new to you but alliances are not only concerned with their immediate political ties. In a case where TKR may be called into war by our allies paying attention to the next tie out is everyday business. I am repeating myself here. BoC's concerns are shared with us and the same with Cornerstone. Attacking SD a BoC ally you attacked TKR's interest in attacking RnR you attacked TKR's interest. If Cornerstone and BoC saw fit to negotiate both instances which were valid causes for war instead of declaring on the both of you and calling us in to help, we along with them sought to reconcile both AGGRESSIVE violations of alliance sovereignty. This is how treaties work pay attention it could help you out in the future.

 

SD was ugly inside and out and were on borrowed time, so like most such alliances they folded in a day (well less). This is not to insult them, they'd merely done some very costly silly decisions resulting in them losing many of their membership and they had estranged themselves with a lot of people so all they had left was a skeleton. 

 

Cornerstone and R&R are big boys and can handle these things and if you feel they're not up to it then have a joint protectorate. To try and write this off like we've waged a campaign against your interests is silly.

SD could be a second from disbanding and folding into their protector and an attack on them would still be a violation of their sovereignty and thus a concern for BoC and TKR. You are within your rights to justify your actions to whoever you want and we are within ours to call you on it. Not every alliance is paperless, and in this world alliance interest extends beyond their immediate vicinity. Roz Wei is a big boy alliance, if you don't want to shit in other's people yards with your actions don't jump over the fence.

 

I'm not sure how you're making that connection with what I said. The official reason is very flimsy, to throw Kastor under the bus for it would be silly. I'll certainly be making some things clearer in future but that'll have to happen due to an error on my part.

The connection in so much that he is the direct cause of your alliance being attacked. If appointing and delegating power to him was not a mistake then neither are the ramifications of his actions.

 

Thats fine, then lead with that. Seeing our supposed crimes against R&R plastered as the reason is nonsense.

You can leave justification of actions to your own. We're doing just fine with ours.

 

That is quite the false equivalency. TKR (as a surrogate for BoC?) not coming to us for diplomacy on the R&R issue is not comparable to us not going to SD's protector's treaty partner. If it works like that then where does it end? Should we have talked with Guardian also as they're your treaty partner? Then Sparta? Then... Anyway we sorted it with Cornerstone and there was a little hullabaloo later which was cleared up. The matter was sorted so if Cornerstone isn't following it up I have to wonder why TKR is.

No, its really not. This thinking that only the immediate treaty partner of the person you wronged has any right to or will be effected by your actions is naive to the point of ridiculousness. If I'm going to be honest it ends whenever the alliance in the chain stops caring. You didn't consult neither BoC nor Cornerstone so obviously you don't care about the ramifications of your or your member's actions very much at all and the fact that they chose to forgive you and work something out instead of rolling your ass is a sign of their generosity. I mean in your head because something was worked out all of a sudden the world resets to zero and no ill will or grudge carries over. Like paperless alliances are the only ones who can have a memory. Well, you're wrong and Arrgh was wrong. Deal with the consequences.

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“ Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. â€

–The First Ideal of the Windrunners,

 

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I'll admit some of my members have gotten cocky (it's something I've been trying to hammer home to them that they aren't hot shit). We aren't top 5 in terms of military, we're likely somewhere in the top 10 range.

 

But if we stop now, we won't get into the top 5 for confidence/cockiness!

 

Again with so called ties. We are paperless. We don't have treatys. We're not obliged to do anything. And Kastor has no real power. RW might have tried to help us diplomatically. There are people I like in RW, jsut like there are people I like in other alliances. Like there were in SD for instance before they left it. I'd try to help them, maybe even threaten if I belived it could achive something, but would I really rally enitre Arrgh to help them? No, my duty and obligation to Arrgh, over my personal matters and ties. Only if Arrgh was most likely the next target would we interwene militarilly, and I hope Roz Wei would do the same, aka only interwene if both of us are in danger. Last thing we need is another damn block of former paperless alliances and chainwaring Orbis in yet another grand war (not that I dislike great wars, I actually like them the best XD).

 

Regardless of whether or not there is 'paper' or not. People who are politically aware will know which alliances have an affinity for the other and plan accordingly. I don't think many people want to be willfully ignorant because there isn't an official documents and whatnot. If a belligerent believes another party will be an imminent threat, it will likely attempt to hamper its abilities to enter whether that's through diplomacy or warfare. Our government worked on information available to it, but ultimately we haven't discovered how to read other people's minds (yet) so we undoubtedly wouldn't know for certain whether they would enter or not. TKR has a duty to defend its itself and its interests and, as mentioned earlier, numerous raids and perceived slights has led to this war. I agree with you big wars are pretty great and it's quite nice they happen frequently around these parts.

 

Yeah IDK why Immeral (DragonK here) did the big raid on not just you guys but a bunch of other people.  I think boredom may have reached critical mass

 

Boredom is the primary motivation for many decisions. It's better than not doing anything at all like say in another hypothetical, bizarre world where politics and conflict just stop and things stagnant for years to come. That would be horrible.

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