Apostasy, part 2

[Rozalia]

Part 1: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10095-apostasy-and-radicalisation/

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3509367/Muslim-shopkeeper-stabbed-death-hours-posted-happy-Easter-message.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2016/jul/07/the-persecution-of-the-ahmadis-must-not-be-allowed-to-spread

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/03/uk-muslim-wishes-christians-happy-easter-is-murdered-by-other-muslim-in-religiously-prejudiced-attack

 

Many might of heard of the story already, some Muslim loony or Conservative Muslim as they're called from the Bradford sheikdom drove 4 hours to kill an "apostate" who gave an Easter greeting.

 

As such in the backdrop of that I think brushing aside the danger felt by "apostates" will be harder, more so as many who do such things are currently on suicide watch (thanks Nigel!). In short I would say if the situation had been different and the crazies weren't allowed to run wild so to speak then such a murder would not have occurred. We must surely protect minorities, the varied amount of good people that make up the "apostates" from this hatred and thuggery of the larger minority. Who agrees with protecting minorities? Or is Islam's status as a (large) minority mean it should be allowed to punish other minorities with impunity?

 

I've added a poll with no wishy-washy middle answer as thus far we've had one of those options in effect so I'm only including that and the counter option which is very sensible I'd say. 

[Aisha Greyjoy]

Your answers are !@#$ing stupid.  "Muslims are more important and we don't want to offend?"  Who the hell believes that?

How about, no way do I want to send our soldiers to the middle east to protect anyone, not Israel and certainly not liberal Muslims.  And it has nothing to do with caring about offending Muslims.

 

Shame on so many Islamic states for failing to protect their own people(the banghaledeshi secular bloggers come to mind), but fundamentally...its NMP.

[Rozalia]

Your answers are !@#$ stupid.  "Muslims are more important and we don't want to offend?"  Who the hell believes that?

How about, no way do I want to send our soldiers to the middle east to protect anyone, not Israel and certainly not liberal Muslims.  And it has nothing to do with caring about offending Muslims.

 

Shame on so many Islamic states for failing to protect their own people(the banghaledeshi secular bloggers come to mind), but fundamentally...its NMP.

 

??? Who said anything about soldiers or people in Bangladesh? This is in regards to people in Western nations where the fear of "offending" has left vulnerable people in danger from terrible elements. Read what I said and the links mate and then try again, I'm not sure how you misunderstood it so heavily.

 

This is pretty unneeded.

 

Was never given a fair shake the first time so I'm trying again with a recent example of failure.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Rozalia

[Aisha Greyjoy]

Ok Roz, you're right.  In this case, anyone in a western country who faces a threat of death, for a religious reason or for any reason, deserves police protection and the police should consider preventative detention of those who issue threats, at least briefly.  Again though, why would anyone ever give the second answer.

[SoS]

I'm pretty sure murder is already illegal. What's your point? What do you suggest?

[Rozalia]

Ok Roz, you're right.  In this case, anyone in a western country who faces a threat of death, for a religious reason or for any reason, deserves police protection and the police should consider preventative detention of those who issue threats, at least briefly.  Again though, why would anyone ever give the second answer.

 

If only it were so simple. In the previous thread on the matter I believe I linked the case of a convert to Christianity who has been attacked, had his property vandalised, and his family terrorised. The police's response? Move, you're "provoking" them. I tried to get across that plenty of "minorities" suffer abuse and attacks from Muslims and... of course Islam was defended and the issue not talked about as it usually goes. 

Why minorities in these threads? I mean the rape gang that raped so many young white girls that the police did nothing about for fear of being labeled racist is a thing too... but bring that up and you're "inciting hate" so I bring up minorities in the hope such people will actually stop and think for once on the matter. 

 

The other thread also dealt with radicalisation which is I believe when Apostates are given firm protection, granted their freedom of religion which so many Muslims do not have in the west, then that will kill this Islam problem of violence dead. The violent ones swiftly get locked up, it becomes clear it's unacceptable, and I have no doubt the religion would lose massive amount of it's base in the west. Once that happens they either are reduced to a total irrelevance or they will modernise in an attempt to survive (which is fine). 

[Rozalia]

I'm pretty sure murder is already illegal. What's your point? What do you suggest?

 

Seems I must have forgotten about this one as I intended to address it together with the post above. 

 

Oh, Pish posh. Lets try radicalisation and extremism, should we not look at them either because murder is illegal? The point is people aren't given adequate protection if they do decide to be true to themselves, while others seeing there is no protection hide away in fear. That is unacceptable, their freedoms have been restricted and their protection should be made clear to do those who would do them harm, that such thuggery will not be acceptable. 

 

Many "Apostates" are still Muslims too and contrary to popular belief I do care so this thread's point applies for them too, the Muslims who are hated and attacked by the violent Muslims, the ones anyone who speaks out against protecting Apostates is enabling and supporting. Of course who wouldn't say they'd want to see people protected? No one would right? Incorrect. By not attacking the perpetrators you are as I said supporting them.

[Clarke]

Islam is such a garbage religion, I overheard two morons chatting about one have troubles getting a wife and if she prayed 5 times a day or not. These morons are suppose to be Muslims just like us, yeah no. 

[Lelouch Vi Britannia]

 

Apostate....really?

Where does this ring any bells.....Muslim accusing and killing another muslim claiming he wasnt muslim enough......AH YES! We have name for them

Khawarij, dogs of hell, etc

Edited July 16, 2016 by Lelouch Vi Britannia

[Rozalia]

 

Apostate....really?

Where does this ring any bells.....Muslim accusing and killing another muslim claiming he wasnt muslim enough......AH YES! We have name for them

Khawarij, dogs of hell, etc

 

Uh... what point are you making exactly?

[Abu Haddad]

the man in question was not a muslim he was an ahmadiyahh and they are not muslims.

However you can't kill just like that. You must use reasoning. If a muslim said happy easter he has committed a sin as the prophet said "he who copies the !@#$ becomes one of them." Even then only kill an apostate if he is aggressive towards you i.e.. betrayed you in battle, spreading lies and hate and becomes your enemy in war. So basically treason. Tell me one nation were you are not killed or imprisoned a long time for treason?

 

The khuwarij killed everyone litteraly everyone no jizya or anything if you we are not one of them they kill you. Before you say ISIS, khuwarij would not give you chance to convert like the mujahideen they would kill you.

By protecting ones enemies that is an act of war.

[Lelouch Vi Britannia]

the man in question was not a muslim he was an ahmadiyahh and they are not muslims.

However you can't kill just like that. You must use reasoning. If a muslim said happy easter he has committed a sin as the prophet said "he who copies the !@#$ becomes one of them." Even then only kill an apostate if he is aggressive towards you i.e.. betrayed you in battle, spreading lies and hate and becomes your enemy in war. So basically treason. Tell me one nation were you are not killed or imprisoned a long time for treason?

 

The khuwarij killed everyone litteraly everyone no jizya or anything if you we are not one of them they kill you. Before you say ISIS, khuwarij would not give you chance to convert like the mujahideen they would kill you.

By protecting ones enemies that is an act of war.

ISIS are the khuwarij and are the army of the dajal.

They are dogs of hell

Also, saying "Happy Easter, Merry Christmas" is NOT a sin, you arent believing in what they are celebrating, but are wishing them peace and joy. In the current state this world is in, when you say things like this Abu (Thankfully you arent as stupid as Moreau) you'd wonder why so many people hate Muslims.

 

 

 

Uh... what point are you making exactly?

That "muslims" who acuse and kill other muslims for "not being muslim enough" have been mentioned before, and that is exactly what ISIS is.

But of course, you dont believe in white terrorists and you'd much prefer if we got rid of muslims etc.

[Rozalia]

the man in question was not a muslim he was an ahmadiyahh and they are not muslims.

However you can't kill just like that. You must use reasoning. If a muslim said happy easter he has committed a sin as the prophet said "he who copies the !@#$ becomes one of them." Even then only kill an apostate if he is aggressive towards you i.e.. betrayed you in battle, spreading lies and hate and becomes your enemy in war. So basically treason. Tell me one nation were you are not killed or imprisoned a long time for treason?

 

The khuwarij killed everyone litteraly everyone no jizya or anything if you we are not one of them they kill you. Before you say ISIS, khuwarij would not give you chance to convert like the mujahideen they would kill you.

By protecting ones enemies that is an act of war.

 

Logically if he ain't a Muslim why then would it be "treason" for him to say happy Easter? It's because deep down you do consider them Muslims, just Muslims who have "betrayed" your nation, or ummah because I should say perhaps. Islam has a very perverse "you belong to us" mantra which states that if you were Muslim at any point (even when not given a choice to be) or heck, are just an Arab from a Muslim country then you belong to Islam and you must die if you betray the nation. Nationalism is a powerful bond but if the person rejects it then they are free to throw it away, as decency would allow... but Islam's brand of supranationalism doesn't work like that.

 

That "muslims" who acuse and kill other muslims for "not being muslim enough" have been mentioned before, and that is exactly what ISIS is.

But of course, you dont believe in white terrorists and you'd much prefer if we got rid of muslims etc.

 

???

 

This threads premise is very simple. Instead of largely ignoring (got some coverage recently and then died down) things such as leaflets produced by Muslims stating to kill the "apostates" such as the Ahmadiyah, or in the case of the Christian convert (from Islam) who was told to leave town as the police would do nothing against the Muslim thugs responsible for the attacks on him and his family... they crack down instead. Jail the thugs and by the large start recognising Muslim's hate crimes and punishing them to show that their hatred be it against the Jews, Christians/Atheists/so on who have fled Islam, and other Muslim sects will not be tolerated and will be punished. 

Show some good sense and backbone bloody hell, so many girls would not have been raped by the Muslim rape gang for one if they cracked down soon as instead of being paralyzed by fear of being labeled Islamophobes.

 

I actually care is what you fail to understand. I see senseless losses happening that wouldn't if some common sense and decency was carried out, it is certainly better than doing nothing. Consider me crude if you like but down the line when things get really bad you'll be wishing things had happened sooner, because in the future the extremes will become more supported and things like cracking down on Muslim's hate crimes like I've stated here will be small potatoes. Total deportations/genocide will be then be the solution of those who will gain power in the future from the weakness of what is happening now so what will it be? Do something now or have your line cut in future by the tyrants of the future? Which would you prefer?

[SoS]

This is exactly my (and imo the liberals') dominant concern. That genius Lightning said in the Mod bs "nothing bad ever happened to the Japanese". Did I miss a joke, or what? We are headed towards atrocities...far beyond the scope of terrorism. Fear and hate are more powerful emotions than the others or reason. We have actors on both sides exploiting that. We seem to be doomed to play out the human condition infinitely. Why do you suppose islam missed out on the age of enlightenment which brought Christianity out of brutality? Seems presently they are too far behind the geopolitical curve and therefore too marginalized to resist the draw of being a force of resistance to tptb.

[Clarke]

This is exactly my (and imo the liberals') dominant concern. That genius Lightning said in the Mod bs "nothing bad ever happened to the Japanese". Did I miss a joke, or what? We are headed towards atrocities...far beyond the scope of terrorism. Fear and hate are more powerful emotions than the others or reason. We have actors on both sides exploiting that. We seem to be doomed to play out the human condition infinitely. Why do you suppose islam missed out on the age of enlightenment which brought Christianity out of brutality? Seems presently they are too far behind the geopolitical curve and therefore too marginalized to resist the draw of being a force of resistance to tptb.

Lightning? You aren't referring to me are you, I'll be honest I don't remember talking about the Japanese and saying nothing bad ever happened to them would be incorrect.

I don't know Japanese history very well but if I had to guess most bad things that happened to them were internal with the exception of the most recent being external arguably their fault and can be justified for the greater good. Saying things are done for the greater good can be controversial, but I think that's mostly morons who don't understand reality and think everything can be sunshine and roses. 

[Abu Haddad]

Logically if he ain't a Muslim why then would it be "treason" for him to say happy Easter? It's because deep down you do consider them Muslims, just Muslims who have "betrayed" your nation, or ummah because I should say perhaps. Islam has a very perverse "you belong to us" mantra which states that if you were Muslim at any point (even when not given a choice to be) or heck, are just an Arab from a Muslim country then you belong to Islam and you must die if you betray the nation. Nationalism is a powerful bond but if the person rejects it then they are free to throw it away, as decency would allow... but Islam's brand of supranationalism doesn't work like that.

 

 

It isn't apostasy to say happy easter but it is forbidden. I was stating the logical argument for killing an apostate. Don't kill an innocent woman who defected but do kill a man who has gave away sensitive material

[Rozalia]

It isn't apostasy to say happy easter but it is forbidden. I was stating the logical argument for killing an apostate. Don't kill an innocent woman who defected but do kill a man who has gave away sensitive material

 

I've had Muslim kids wish me a happy easter, shall I tell the local Imam to kill them? 

 

There is logical argument for killing someone for saying Happy Easter.

[SoS]

Lightning? You aren't referring to me are you, I'll be honest I don't remember talking about the Japanese and saying nothing bad ever happened to them would be incorrect.

I don't know Japanese history very well but if I had to guess most bad things that happened to them were internal with the exception of the most recent being external arguably their fault and can be justified for the greater good. Saying things are done for the greater good can be controversial, but I think that's mostly morons who don't understand reality and think everything can be sunshine and roses.

You don't see people going around vilifying the Japanese, cause and effect my friend.

You say that never ends well but its like you're oblivious the fact the "vilified" group is the one causing the problems, this isn't an innocent group like the ones from history you're probably going to try and allure to.

The Japanese, in America, were vilified and abused due to actions they weren't responsible for. Some Jews did harm Germany before, during, and after ww1. All Jews in Europe were made to suffer for it.

 

Being born a white male doesn't make me responsible for everything white males do, or have done. Being Japanese, Jewish, Muslim is no different.

 

East and west have always been at war. I honor the heroics of my ancestors who saved western civilization, time and time again. But, people looking for a better life aren't an invading army. They're people exactly like the ones I came from. All the immigrants were despised at one point, until they became a part of us. Irish, Germans, Italians.

 

You deal with violent people, not violent races. If attacking apostates is a special crime, then you define it as a hate crime. There's a number of disgusting groups given protection to speak and assemble and have their stupid beliefs. Stupid ideas are allowed. Illegal actions, not so much.

[Rozalia]

East and west have always been at war. I honor the heroics of my ancestors who saved western civilization, time and time again. But, people looking for a better life aren't an invading army. They're people exactly like the ones I came from. All the immigrants were despised at one point, until they became a part of us. Irish, Germans, Italians.

 

You deal with violent people, not violent races. If attacking apostates is a special crime, then you define it as a hate crime. There's a number of disgusting groups given protection to speak and assemble and have their stupid beliefs. Stupid ideas are allowed. Illegal actions, not so much.

 

Yes, integration is the key and you get there by not being weak. Instead however we have multiculturalism, Cosmopolitanism/Internationalism/Anti-Nationalism/whatever they want to call it, political correctness, which progressives/Liberals/Socialists champion as being grand things. Non integration and everyone broken up into little groups, divided, is apparently a beautiful thing. The cherry of course is whenever the issue of demographics come up, namely the country losing it's primary demographic, something I've seen that type literally applaud. Divisiveness used to be very simple back in the day, nowadays it masquerades as unity. 

 

Who said anything about race?

[SoS]

For all purposes "muslim" is a race. Sure, any race could be a muslim, but if every white dude in your country converted to Islam it wouldn't be the same as a few middle-easterners moving in. It's a matter of race and culure, not religion.

 

We never had to force people to eventually be a part of the melting pot. Economic, social, and similar factors simply win out here. I suspect the nations where this is a problem are are in fact the problem. America is just fine, so maybe other nations should take a hard look at themselves.

[Rozalia]

For all purposes "muslim" is a race. Sure, any race could be a muslim, but if every white dude in your country converted to Islam it wouldn't be the same as a few middle-easterners moving in. It's a matter of race and culure, not religion.

 

We never had to force people to eventually be a part of the melting pot. Economic, social, and similar factors simply win out here. I suspect the nations where this is a problem are are in fact the problem. America is just fine, so maybe other nations should take a hard look at themselves.

 

Culture, not race. If race came into it then that would target Hindus, Sikhs, so forth also which yes, some ignorant people also lump in which is terrible. 

 

We didn't have forces in the past saying that not integrating is just dandy. 

[Clarke]

The Japanese, in America, were vilified and abused due to actions they weren't responsible for. Some Jews did harm Germany before, during, and after ww1. All Jews in Europe were made to suffer for it.

 

Being born a white male doesn't make me responsible for everything white males do, or have done. Being Japanese, Jewish, Muslim is no different.

 

East and west have always been at war. I honor the heroics of my ancestors who saved western civilization, time and time again. But, people looking for a better life aren't an invading army. They're people exactly like the ones I came from. All the immigrants were despised at one point, until they became a part of us. Irish, Germans, Italians.

 

You deal with violent people, not violent races. If attacking apostates is a special crime, then you define it as a hate crime. There's a number of disgusting groups given protection to speak and assemble and have their stupid beliefs. Stupid ideas are allowed. Illegal actions, not so much.

I say you don't see people going around vilifying the Japanese and you say they were vilified at one point when their country that their ancestors came from decided to attack the current country they were in.

You have to keep in my mind these were different time periods, I know I sure as hell wouldn't want someone with a high probability of having loyalty to their ancestors homeland walking around freely possibly sabotaging the country. Honor to me seems like a bit part of Japanese culture.

 

In a lot of ways its similar to Muslims except Muslims are much worse since you know they have loyalty to Islam as their top priority which basically can be used to justify anything. Another reason why its so much worse is any of those crazy Muslims could be murderous because they don't need to be from a specific area like the Japanese. That's largely the difference between race and an ideology. 

 

Being white isn't a nationality or a religion, comparing it to such is illogical and misguided. 

 

Ultimately the only thing that changed from then until now is that the government don't give a shit about the safety of its people. Should the Japanese have being dealt with that way? Yes. Should Muslims be dealt with that way if you're basically at war with their ideology? Yes. Make no mistake there is a war with their ideology and currently you're part of the group I mention earlier that sees everything as sunshine and roses, no my friend that attitude is only get you stumped. 

 

Yeah not violent races unless it is a race war, hypothetical if it was a race war you would have to deal with races whose loyalty is probably to their race.

If its a war between nations then you deal with nationalities.

If its a war between Ideologies then you deal with people who share that ideology. 

Failing to deal with them is only going to lead to death and destruction which is getting more deadly and more frequent. Perhaps at some point you will realize or perhaps they will kill you in the next attack.

 

About the only similarity they have to you is that they're humans also from planet earth, their culture and ideologies are much more barbaric than of your ancestors who immigrated. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Lightning

[Clarke]

For all purposes "muslim" is a race. Sure, any race could be a muslim, but if every white dude in your country converted to Islam it wouldn't be the same as a few middle-easterners moving in. It's a matter of race and culure, not religion.

 

We never had to force people to eventually be a part of the melting pot. Economic, social, and similar factors simply win out here. I suspect the nations where this is a problem are are in fact the problem. America is just fine, so maybe other nations should take a hard look at themselves.

Not exactly since Islam forms the majority of the culture of Muslims so yes if a white person was to go to Islam they would have a lot of the same barbaric culture because they get it through the religion. 

As long as they hold firmly onto their barbaric religion they will not change their barbaric culture much.

[SoS]

People remain the same and history is repeating itself. We are becoming as we were when we put "Japs" (for the love of jesus, dont warn me for that. It's only a reference to the mentality of that time) in concentration camps.

 

How do you differentiate between the actions of a religion/nationality and the actions of a race (ie BLM)? How many BLM terrorist attacks must occur before we begin to look at sending all blacks to concentration camps, like the Japanese? (This is a question, not my suggestion or opinion. None of this is intended to be racist towards any demographic. I'm just comparing similar situations)

 

If it's not about race, but religion, then we can just let all Semites immigrate and just don't ask them their religion. If you had two people flying to the west from Israel and one had a big nose and uncut corners and the other was brown, one of them would be targeted by tsa and the other not.

 

I understand there is a problem. And, I am a practical person. I have found myself in the middle of a race riot once, by no choice of my own. You have no choice, but to fight along racial divides. My companions and I left. They wanted to return to the fight. I left their company. That's the difference I see. Shit is !@#$ed up, but I don't have to choose to attack someone because of their race, nationality, religion. If I were in prison or Yugoslavia 20 years ago, sure I'd get in where I fit in to survive. I choose to not condemn every black person for the actions of BLM and I choose to not condemn every muslim for the actions of jihadists. If I were personally touched by islamic terror, I wouldn't change my mind regarding all muslims. I have absolutely no fear or hate. They might have gained a shock and awe victory in yours' and Trump's heart and mind, but I'll jack imaginary dongs in the air and say, "see ya later gay boys". Cuz, idgaf. See, you have already lost, because they have forced you to make an enemy of all muslims.

[Rozalia]

People remain the same and history is repeating itself. We are becoming as we were when we put "Japs" (for the love of jesus, dont warn me for that. It's only a reference to the mentality of that time) in concentration camps.

 

How do you differentiate between the actions of a religion/nationality and the actions of a race (ie BLM)? How many BLM terrorist attacks must occur before we begin to look at sending all blacks to concentration camps, like the Japanese? (This is a question, not my suggestion or opinion. None of this is intended to be racist towards any demographic. I'm just comparing similar situations)

 

If it's not about race, but religion, then we can just let all Semites immigrate and just don't ask them their religion. If you had two people flying to the west from Israel and one had a big nose and uncut corners and the other was brown, one of them would be targeted by tsa and the other not.

 

I understand there is a problem. And, I am a practical person. I have found myself in the middle of a race riot once, by no choice of my own. You have no choice, but to fight along racial divides. My companions and I left. They wanted to return to the fight. I left their company. That's the difference I see. Shit is !@#$ed up, but I don't have to choose to attack someone because of their race, nationality, religion. If I were in prison or Yugoslavia 20 years ago, sure I'd get in where I fit in to survive. I choose to not condemn every black person for the actions of BLM and I choose to not condemn every muslim for the actions of jihadists. If I were personally touched by islamic terror, I wouldn't change my mind regarding all muslims. I have absolutely no fear or hate. They might have gained a shock and awe victory in yours' and Trump's heart and mind, but I'll jack imaginary dongs in the air and say, "see ya later gay boys". Cuz, idgaf. See, you have already lost, because they have forced you to make an enemy of all muslims.

 

They're not equivalents.

 

BLM is a hate group that has incensed criminals and other angry people by making out that there is a war on black people waged by white people/White Cops, something that the stats do not reflect and have to be cooked as a result. Every thug they can find who gets killed they'll with the help of the media portray as an angel to this end, and the President Obama being the idiot he is helps them at every turn. 

 

Islam is different. BLM is not a culture, it ain't a religion, it ain't a club whose membership believes you should get killed if you leave it. How many Maajid Nawazs are there? How many can openly speak in their communities of such things without fear of reprisals be they physical or social? I don't want a crack down on Muslim's hate crimes because I despise Muslims in their entirety, on the contrary I want for there to be an environment where the good people in Islam over here (those in the middle east can do whatever) can rise up and take over the faith (here, not worldwide), ridding it of it's Conservatism which is what nurtures and keeps radicalism alive. 

Allowing the good Muslims to without fear defeat the bad ones is how you keep us (and them) safe, and bring about good things. Doing as it is currently, which is to shield the bad ones fixes nothing and will only lead to terrible things. In the future when it's even worse people will not say things like I have, they will have time for talk of good Muslims, they'll want all of them gone be it via mass deportation or death. 

 

As for your "See, you have already lost, because they have forced you to make an enemy of all muslims" you're incorrect. That is on the level of the ridiculous "If you kill your enemies, they win". There is a problem which needs fixing and we put forward solutions. Being in fear would be to say there is no problem and Muslims will change if we all kowtow to them.