Communism

[Franz Von Dietrich]

You don't say.

 

 

I've been around the block and heard it all, guys. You need to start coming up with some original material.

Cheap responses are the best, right?

 

I've done my work here, no point in wasting time with a troll.

[Nadir Aminu]

You don't say.

 

 

I've been around the block and heard it all, guys. You need to start coming up with some original material.

Beautiful rebuttals. You should really join a debate team.

[Dindu]

Beautiful rebuttals. You should really join a debate team.

Why should I waste my time trying to disprove a logical fallacy? Whenever a communist gets cornered he pulls the same "No true Scotsman" excuse of "real communism hasn't been tried!" Any Western capitalist democracy permits you to create a cooperative corporation where all employees share in the ownership. A similar system of ownership existed in socialist Yugoslavia, considered one of the more successful communist states, with only cooperatives being permitted. There's absolutely nothing stopping you and your comrades from collectively owning the memes of production, but for some reason lots of people just want to start working for some other person and then complain that they aren't being paid enough. Maybe because the proletarians don't actually want to collectively own anything, they just want FREE SHIT while the boss man thinks for them. But that's besides the point, since we're talking about communism, and every movement that has called itself a socialist or communist has, in one form or another, advocated for state owned enterprise, the removal of individual freedoms, and the transfer of authority away from traditional institutions or democratic forums, and into the hands of unelected committees of communist intellectuals and diverse transwomen of color.

 

The significance of deaths that took place under communist regimes is precisely that the people who perpetrated them were saying "I am liquidating the following elements of the population to build socialism. I am taking your food to give you socialism. I am putting you in forced labor camps for your own good." You have to be either mentally ill or suicidal to find a way to starve to death in contemporary America or Europe; meanwhile, North Koreans are eating grass and everything outside of their Potemkin village capital is in ruins. It must be the capitalists again, right? I have yet to see a capitalist country where privately contracted death squads were hunting people for wanting a raise at their Wal Mart clerk position, so you can take your whataboutism and shove it.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Dindu

[vonnorman]

Why should I waste my time trying to disprove a logical fallacy? Whenever a communist gets cornered he pulls the same "No true Scotsman" excuse of "real communism hasn't been tried!" Any Western capitalist democracy permits you to create a cooperative corporation where all employees share in the ownership. A similar system of ownership existed in socialist Yugoslavia, considered one of the more successful communist states, with only cooperatives being permitted. There's absolutely nothing stopping you and your comrades from collectively owning the memes of production, but for some reason lots of people just want to start working for some other person and then complain that they aren't being paid enough. Maybe because the proletarians don't actually want to collectively own anything, they just want FREE SHIT while the boss man thinks for them. But that's besides the point, since we're talking about communism, and every movement that has called itself a socialist or communist has, in one form or another, advocated for state owned enterprise, the removal of individual freedoms, and the transfer of authority away from traditional institutions or democratic forums, and into the hands of unelected committees of communist intellectuals and diverse transwomen of color.

 

The significance of deaths that took place under communist regimes is precisely that the people who perpetrated them were saying "I am liquidating the following elements of the population to build socialism. I am taking your food to give you socialism. I am putting you in forced labor camps for your own good." You have to be either mentally ill or suicidal to find a way to starve to death in contemporary America or Europe; meanwhile, North Koreans are eating grass and everything outside of their Potemkin village capital is in ruins. It must be the capitalists again, right? I have yet to see a capitalist country where privately contracted death squads were hunting people for wanting a raise at their Wal Mart clerk position, so you can take your whataboutism and shove it.

When you dont spew hate speech i truley enjoy reading your posts

[Ivan the Red]

Any Western capitalist democracy permits you to create a cooperative corporation where all employees share in the ownership.

If you have the capital for it, of course.

for some reason lots of people just want to start working for some other person and then complain that they aren't being paid enough. Maybe because the proletarians don't actually want to collectively own anything, they just want FREE SHIT while the boss man thinks for them.

 

Or maybe it is because people have that strange passion for not dying of hunger.

The significance of deaths that took place under communist regimes is precisely that the people who perpetrated them were saying "I am liquidating the following elements of the population to build socialism. I am taking your food to give you socialism. I am putting you in forced labor camps for your own good."

I'm bombing your country to bring you freedom, I'm taking your oil for your own prosperity, I'm evicting you from your home to bring you democracy...

meanwhile, North Koreans are eating grass and everything outside of their Potemkin village capital is in ruins.

It is fascinating the amount of precise information people have about what happens in the most closed country in the world.

 

Anyway, the majority of the population living under countries running a free-market system have to endure worse conditions.

I have yet to see a capitalist country where privately contracted death squads were hunting people for wanting a raise at their Wal Mart clerk position

I bet you have never been in Colombia, Mexico or Brazil, to name a few. In Venezuela, the anti-chavist employ death squads to kill supporters of president Maduro, not the other way around. Edited July 2, 2016 by Ivan the Red

[WISD0MTREE]

Do you mean that since Galileo wrote in the 17th Century, he was wrong at stating that Earth orbited the Sun?

 

Because that's pretty much the logical fallacy in "Commies are wrong because Marx is from the XIX century", which you read again and again every time a bigot pretending to pass as a "liberal" writes an anti-communist rant.

It isn't read because his theories have been proven wrong. 

[Nadir Aminu]

It isn't read because his theories have been proven wrong.

The earth doesn't orbit the sun?

Gg

[Dindu]

1. If you have the capital for it, of course.

Or maybe it is because people have that strange passion for not dying of hunger.

 

2. I'm bombing your country to bring you freedom, I'm taking your oil for your own prosperity, I'm evicting you from your home to bring you democracy...

It is fascinating the amount of precise information people have about what happens in the most closed country in the world.

 

3. Anyway, the majority of the population living under countries running a free-market system have to endure worse conditions.

I bet you have never been in Colombia, Mexico or Brazil, to name a few. In Venezuela, the anti-chavist employ death squads to kill supporters of president Maduro, not the other way around.

1. Better steal someone else's shit then, right? If a bunch of communists were stranded on a desert island, would they starve to death because they have no starting capital, or would they kill each other, one by one, for betraying the revolution?

 

2. Do people still think the Iraq war was about oil? The whole idea of the US military industrial complex is that companies like Lockheed Martin will lobby the government to get into wars and buy their products. You might say it is a fault of capitalism, but in reality the problem is political corruption. This is leading into my next point...

 

3. Organized crime is not "capitalism" and getting beheaded by Mexican cartels has nothing to do with capitalism or market economics. You're really reaching now. Also, I haven't head these death squads in Venezuela, but I can tell you that I spoke to a number of Venezuelans who are sick of not being able to wipe their !@#$ clean.

 

Ultimately, your argument still boils down to an appeal to hypocrisy, which doesn't support your position at all.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Dindu

[WISD0MTREE]

The earth doesn't orbit the sun?

Gg

Not after you've raided the hotel bar. 

[Nadir Aminu]

Not after you've raided the hotel bar.

Is that what makes the earth flat?

[WISD0MTREE]

Is that what makes the earth flat?

All I know is my bed id f;at

[Big Brother]

What a terrible and useless thread. This is clearly not an attempt to create actual fair and reasonable debate, rather it's being used as a tool to present a specific viewpoint while slandering the ideas and opinions of others. There can be no fruitful discussion if all sides have already decided to stick to their side and refuse to admit error regardless of what is presented to them. It's a waste of words.

 

People love to hate and misunderstand Communism, old news are old.

[LostWorld]

But on a different note. Looking ahead in the future. Like far far into. Do you think the system will remain in it s current form? I love reading scifi books and most of them depict a future utopian economic system. Probably money will dissapear soon in physical form so i don t think that credit points based system is far away. What do you think? Are we heading to a future with macdonals galactic network of stores or a society where everything is planned andba supercomputer plans your every action and gives you money based on your needs.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

Aren't you forgetting all the genocides committed by capitalist states:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State- over a million dead alone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366

 

I could go on and on

[SoS]

I liked adam smith though... his works are easy to understand znd i hardly can find an author who can better explain trade or inflation or other basic economic concept. I don t think a real economist(which i m not btw) can overlook the work of adam smith.

The guy was hired by a corrupt politician to write the book. Most of his theories were blatantly false. The truest thing in the book is in the first few pages. To paraphrase: if capitalists cooperate among themselves the general public will be screwed.

 

No, I'm not prepared or willing to prove any of those claims. I've long since lost the files. The proof of his corrupt patron is out there if you care to look. And, if you're not educated in economics there's really no point in debating the soundness of economic theory.

 

I don't get the point of this thread. Communism killed a lot of people, so communist imagery and RP is bad? There's a difference between murder for politics and murder for racial supremacy. One is the status quo and the other is abhorrent. Every nation that has ever existed has killed for political reasons.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

Most of the deaths associated with "communism" in Russia and China were due to how unimaginably poor and undeveloped the countries were before their revolutions, Russia and China were essentially medieval with very little industry, they also suffered cyclical famines during monarchical/feudal times with many perishing, so it's rather strange to pin the blame on the communists for the countries they inherited. If anything the industrialization during the Five-Year Plans turned Russia from a rural backwater into an industrial superpower within 10 years, while industrialization in England/America/France took place over a hundred years or more. And after those 10 years Hitler invaded the Soviet Union (just as Stalin said that "Either we make up this lag in 10 years, either we do it or they crush us"), so you can hardly say the extreme pace of the development wasn't needed, considering that the USSR was encircled by capitalist powers who wanted to destroy them (militarist Japan in the East, Nazi Germany/Fascist Italy and other states in the West).

Edited July 3, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[Ivan the Red]

1. Better steal someone else's shit then, right?

It's no crime to rob a thief, so...

If a bunch of communists were stranded on a desert island, would they starve to death because they have no starting capital, or would they kill each other, one by one, for betraying the revolution?

 

They could just farm the land without fear of some rich rancher paying a hit squad to kill them and stealing their land to breed cattle, or some Robber Baron hiring a gunfighter to kill them and steal their land to build a railroad. Until they find petroleum, then the Government will send the army to evict them and relocate to a indian reserve. No, wait, that was a hundred years ago, now the Air Force just bombs them out in the name of Democracy and Freedom.

 

2. Do people still think the Iraq war was about oil? The whole idea of the US military industrial complex is that companies like Lockheed Martin will lobby the government to get into wars and buy their products. You might say it is a fault of capitalism, but in reality the problem is political corruption. This is leading into my next point...

Everything that has happened in the Middle East since WWII is pretty much about Oil.

 

However, I must concede that "we bombed Irak so our arms industry could make profit" stands as a better argument about the murderous nature of capitalism than "we bombed Irak to snatch her oil".

 

Organized crime is not "capitalism" and getting beheaded by Mexican cartels has nothing to do with capitalism or market economics.

 

Who is talking about Mexican Cartels? Do you think the drug dealers are the only violence in Mexico? You asked about "privately contracted death squads hunting people for wanting a raise at their Wal Mart clerk position". Well look at the Iguala Massacre for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Iguala_mass_kidnapping

 

That's par for the course for most capitalists countries in the world, and was par for the course in the US or Europe not that far ago (both Labour Day and Woman's Day commemorate massacres of workers in the US, and most people in the US can remeber the good old times when an afro-american would be shoot for sitting in the wrong place in the bus). If it doesn't happen so often in the US or Europe anymore is thanks to the efforts of leftists, counter-culture, and minorities, not the goodwill of the patrons who used to employ the gunmen or grease the police.

You're really reaching now. Also, I haven't head these death squads in Venezuela, but I can tell you that I spoke to a number of Venezuelans who are sick of not being able to wipe their !@#$ clean.

I'm more concerned with people in the US and Europe don't being able to get a job or american and european families being evicted from their homes, than with people in Venezuela don't being able to wipe their asses with prime quality toilet paper. Edited July 3, 2016 by Ivan the Red

[Andrezj Kolarov]

Drug cartels operate on the most basic principle of market economy - supply and demand. Socialist countries like the USSR had essentially zero drug problems while they existed.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[LostWorld]

The guy was hired by a corrupt politician to write the book. Most of his theories were blatantly false. The truest thing in the book is in the first few pages. To paraphrase: if capitalists cooperate among themselves the general public will be screwed.

 

No, I'm not prepared or willing to prove any of those claims. I've long since lost the files. The proof of his corrupt patron is out there if you care to look. And, if you're not educated in economics there's really no point in debating the soundness of economic theory.

 

I don't get the point of this thread. Communism killed a lot of people, so communist imagery and RP is bad? There's a difference between murder for politics and murder for racial supremacy. One is the status quo and the other is abhorrent. Every nation that has ever existed has killed for political reasons.

 

 

I said i m not an economist not that i am not educated on economy. If you will point to conspiracies then probably it s best not to dwelve too deep on this subject. I am sure it's the hand of the aliens somewhere on the road.

 

But I agree with your second point on communism. Probably the author wants to acknowledge the crimes of the communism, which many countries did not condemn yet and it s important to do so just to ackowledge and condemn historical crimes. Of course this does not relate to racial crimes and so on, althught there was something about the superiority of the communist man in their early propaganda. So i understand his passion but i think the public he encountered here is not amongst the most agreeable. After all we are talking about supporting Trump and how great is the Brexit for UK, somewhere around these forums... No reasoning with such people(no offence to the idiots out there).

 

Regarding strictily about socialism and capitalism I would recomment "Socialism, Capitalism and Democracy" by J Schumpeter. Nice reading, the man dismantles socialsim without saying a damn bad word against it. I agree with that guy before that said that USSR wasn t really communism. And I agree that communism is an utopia not to be achievable in the world of people. Prbaly if we were ants or bees or some other animals. Not, we are destined to live n a world of creative destruction and competition. This is what makes us great.

Edited July 3, 2016 by LostWorld

[Andrezj Kolarov]

Do you have anything to respond to? All I've seen so far are the snarky, dismissive comments typical of those elicited when attempting to discuss anything with a liberal. Not only is whether or not I am a racist irrelevant to the discussion, but Karl Marx was indeed a Jew, as was Vadimir Ulyanov (Lenin), and if you attach some sort of negative connotations to their ethnicity, your accusations of racism towards myself are nothing more than psychological projection.

 

If you are not prepared to address any of my points regarding communism, I kindly ask you to remove yourself from the debate.

He's saying it because associating a conspiratorial link between Communism and the Jews is an old antisemitic canard invented by the Whites in the Russian Civil War and later revived by the German Nazi's:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

 

Also calling Lenin syphilitic is yet more coded-language, in this case it's associating Communism with sexual debauchery (seeing as syphilis in those days was mostly contracted from prostitutes or through sex outside marriage), again:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sexual_Bolshevism

 

It's a dead giveaway that you're a fascist or Nazi of some kind, seeing as they were the ones who popularized this nonsense. Talk about people believing in ancient ideologies!

Edited July 3, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[SoS]

I said i m not an economist not that i am not educated on economy. If you will point to conspiracies then probably it s best not to dwelve too deep on this subject. I am sure it's the hand of the aliens somewhere on the road.

 

But I agree with your second point on communism. Probably the author wants to acknowledge the crimes of the communism, which many countries did not condemn yet and it s important to do so just to ackowledge and condemn historical crimes. Of course this does not relate to racial crimes and so on, althught there was something about the superiority of the communist man in their early propaganda. So i understand his passion but i think the public he encountered here is not amongst the most agreeable. After all we are talking about supporting Trump and how great is the Brexit for UK, somewhere around these forums... No reasoning with such people(no offence to the idiots out there).

 

Regarding strictily about socialism and capitalism I would recomment "Socialism, Capitalism and Democracy" by J Schumpeter. Nice reading, the man dismantles socialsim without saying a damn bad word against it. I agree with that guy before that said that USSR wasn t really communism. And I agree that communism is an utopia not to be achievable in the world of people. Prbaly if we were ants or bees or some other animals. Not, we are destined to live n a world of creative destruction and competition. This is what makes us great.

Totally agree with your last point. Human nature and pure communism are incompatible.

 

I'm sure we're all willing here to ackowledge communist atrocities. There just not the same as genocide.

 

Adam Smith was a free mason. Literally the illuminati. JK. He was paid to write a book that would please his boss.

[Dindu]

snip

I see you're completely impartial, with a title like the 'People's Republic' for your nation, and a history of reporting people for having memes in their names. And, as usual, you handwave the millions of deaths deliberately caused by people calling themselves communists and socialists on a political basis by comparing them with atrocities committed by imperial powers in the 19th and early 20th centuries, falsely attributing the deaths to "capitalism". Since you are actually the first in this thread to outright defend what happened in China and the Soviet Union, I invite you to pack your bags and move to Venezuela right away. You won't, because your mom won't let you.

 

Edit: It's easy to speak in abstract terms about whether or not the "pace of development" was needed in the Soviet Union. The famines were absolutely caused by the communists. The Holodomor and Povolzhye famines were caused by the authorities expropriating all grains produced by the peasants for "redistribution". I'm honestly getting tired of arguing with you and I'm going to be banned from the forum soon too. Just remember that my family is from the former USSR (from Ukraine) and I've heard stories from my grandparents about eating grass when they were little kids. My great grandfather went missing in the war and was never found. My parents were still wiping their asses with cut up newspapers up until the mid 90s. It's disgusting that being accused by some communist cuck of being a "waycis" gets me a permaban without any warning, but idiots like you can run around waving flags that have the blood of tens of millions of people on them. It's really easy to philosophize about the virtues of command economies when you're living in a cushy white suburb somewhere in the US; if you went to Poland right now, or any of the other former Marxist utopias, you'd get beat to a bloody pulp for waving around your stupid red flags before you could even begin to say "communism wasn't tried."

Edited July 3, 2016 by Dindu

[LostWorld]

Oh come on dindu. No need for anyone to be banned. We are capable of having a rational conversation. I hope.

 

You know these kind of debates remind me that these things happened not so long ago. Like around 50 years ago? And although shameful the people still remember whether it s germany or former ussr. This is the reason why russians still celebrate with such passion the victory in the 2nd world war - although it seems steange to us but for them it s not - in their memory this happened only a few decades ago. This is the reason why some people are still sensible to the atrocities of communism - cause in their memory it happened not os long ago... i m sure time will heal everything and make us hopefully better. Just wait till trump gets ellected...

[Big Brother]

Totally agree with your last point. Human nature and pure communism are incompatible.

 

Nah, you're both wrong. There doesn't even exist a universal consensus on what human nature actually is. There's no clear definition of it and because of that you cannot actually truthfully say that Communism and human nature is incompatible. Maybe you have your own idea of what human nature is but it's nothing but your own idea and since the.. nature of human nature is obscure and unclear you cannot make truthful statements about its relationship to other things without being wrong.

 

Kind of conceited to quote myself but whatever, it's relevant:

 

"Human nature". What an arbitrary, watered down concept. Some people say that humans are violent by nature, and the only things keeping us from hurting each other are laws and the like. Others say that humans are peaceful by nature, and that we only turn violent because of hierarchical power structures. Some say we seek social connections out of love for others, some say it's because of the fear of being alone. Some say we're greedy, others say we're giving.

 

I'm rambling but the point is, there is no agreement on what human nature actually is. There's no universal consensus, no actual strict definition of which exact traits belong to human nature. Many, many people define human nature in many different ways.

 

So taking all this into account, how can you say that Communism fails application because of human nature? How can you make such a statement, when no one even knows or actually agrees on what human nature really is? The easy answer is: You can't. Or you can, but you'd be wrong.

 

Unless you can empirically prove and define exactly what human nature is, by which I mean define which characteristics inherently belong to human nature, you'll always be wrong by blaming something on it. You might as well say Communism cannot be applied because magical pixies from the moon don't like the color red.

[Ivan the Red]

Just remember that my family is from the former USSR (from Ukraine) and I've heard stories from my grandparents about eating grass when they were little kids.

Because Ukraine is doing fine after 25 years of free market capitalism. Half the country just wants a visa-free treaty with the EU so they can all migrate here and work cleaning our bathrooms, the other half want a visa-free treaty with Russia to be able to migrate there and clean their bathrooms.

 

Ukraine has one of the biggest coal reserves in the world, but in 25 years of magnificient capitalism all that the free market has achieved is to turn Ukraine in the prime source of white slave girls for the brothels of all Europe.

 

Meanwhile the heavy industry inherited from the soviet era is just scrapped because the west doesn't needs competition in steel and machinery production. Of course that industry was a bit outdated in 1990, but instead of investing in renewing it, they just followed the advice from western neoliberal economists to invest in sunflowers, potatoes, and nazi paramilitar organizations. Worked fine.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Ivan the Red