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Dindu
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Since a lot of players in this game like to roleplay as some shade of commie, I'd like to remind everyone (especially the people who call me a racist as if it's the worst thing in the world) about the death toll from the mass killings of communist regimes:

 

USSR -- 20 million
 
China -- 65 million
 
Vietnam -- 1 million
 
North Korea -- 2 million
 
Cambodia -- 2 million
 
Eastern Europe -- 1 million
 
Latin America -- 150,000
 
Africa -- 1.7 million
 
Afghanistan -- 1.5 million
 
Communist movements, parties not in power -- 10,000
 
The death toll listed for the USSR does not include the casualties of war, though it should for several reasons. Firstly, when Stalin implemented Order No. 227 (not one step back) in 1942, retreating Soviet soldiers were to be shot by NKVD commissars. Thousands of people died in this war. Furthermore, over 22,000 Polish people were murdered in the Katyn forest following the USSR's illegal invasion of Poland; these people were buried in a mass grave as though they were animals. The Katyn massacre was part of an ongoing series of massacres staged by the NKVD against political prisoners in Eastern Europe. Overall, it is estimated that 100,000 people died in this way. The death toll for the USSR also does not reflect surviving victims of communist abuse. When the Red Army "liberated" Europe, they were known to rape all the women on formerly occupied territories, including their own; they even raped female prisoners of German concentration camps. Up to 2 million German women are estimated to have been raped by the Soviet occupation forces, with an estimated 100,000 raped in Berlin alone. Edit: I forgot to add, for those who want to say that these repressions are limited to Stalin, that after Stalin's death and until the end of the USSR's existence, thousands of people were forcibly committed to psychiatric hospitals where they were imprisoned and drugged for political reasons. The Soviet doctors specifically invented a mental illness (sluggish schizophrenia) that was vague enough to diagnose anyone when it was expedient to do so. Also, the GULAG forced labor camps were not closed after Stalin's death, and remained operational until prisoner riots pressured the state to close them down. Shortly after Stalin's death, amnesty was granted to many prisoners of the GULAG camps, but what is not mentioned, is that political prisoners were not granted amnesty and remained in the camps.
 
In Cambodia, where Pol Pot killed an estimated 2,000,000 people, the population is yet to recover from the systematic genocide of intellectuals. People were killed for wearing glasses because the communist party assumed it meant they were smart. Cambodia, today, is one of the poorest nations in the world.
 
If you ever see someone on this board and want to scream "racist!", just remember how much of a hypocrite you are if you don't do the same for any of the clowns sporting commie imagery in their signatures. 
Edited by Dindu
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If you ever see someone on this board and want to scream "racist!", just remember how much of a hypocrite you are if you don't do the same for any of the clowns sporting commie imagery in their signatures.

So the point of your rant is basically justify your right to promote racism?

 

lol communism is backwards 1800 hundreds nonsense that follows long debunked theories

 

it's like using newton's theories of gravity for modern physics. get with the times

Totally right, in the XXI century defending a political ideology based in the works of XIX century Marx looks as silly as defending a Jeffersonian Democratic political system based in a XVIII century Constitution, or like believing in economic theories based in 1700s Adam Smith works.

 

Have you seen the Invisible Hand lately?

Edited by Ivan the Red
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So the point of your rant is basically justify your right to promote racism?

 

Totally righ, in the XXI century defending a political ideology based in the works of XIX century Marx looks as silly as defending a Jeffersonian Democratic political system based in a XVIII century Constitution, or like believing in economic theories based in 1700s Adam Smith works.

 

Have you seen the Invisible Hand lately?

I know the nuance might be lost on an edgy high school communist LARPer, but the government of the USA did not systematically kill millions of their own citizens over the course of the 20th century. The US doesn't send people to labor camps where they're worked to death, or test chemical weapons on pregnant women--things that the Marxist utopia of North Korea is doing in THIS century. Remember when Chavez and his commie fan club were spreading their hype about the Socialism of the 21st Century? You probably don't because you were still seven years old back in 2005. Well look at Venezuela today, food shortages, toilet paper shortage, even a shortage of coffins (all this is verifiable from Wikipedia), all by the communist playbook. I guess now that people are starving to death again, it turns out this wasn't REAL communism either, right? That is why you look like a !@#$ing stupid tool defending communism, not because it's made by an enemployed syphilitic jew in the 19th century.

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So, definitely, your point is to promote racism, I see.

Do you have anything to respond to? All I've seen so far are the snarky, dismissive comments typical of those elicited when attempting to discuss anything with a liberal. Not only is whether or not I am a racist irrelevant to the discussion, but Karl Marx was indeed a Jew, as was Vadimir Ulyanov (Lenin), and if you attach some sort of negative connotations to their ethnicity, your accusations of racism towards myself are nothing more than psychological projection.

 

If you are not prepared to address any of my points regarding communism, I kindly ask you to remove yourself from the debate.

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I liked adam smith though... his works are easy to understand znd i hardly can find an author who can better explain trade or inflation or other basic economic concept. I don t think a real economist(which i m not btw) can overlook the work of adam smith.

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Since a lot of players in this game like to roleplay as some shade of commie, I'd like to remind everyone (especially the people who call me a racist as if it's the worst thing in the world) about the death toll from the mass killings of communist regimes:

 

USSR -- 20 million
 
China -- 65 million
 
Vietnam -- 1 million
 
North Korea -- 2 million
 
Cambodia -- 2 million
 
Eastern Europe -- 1 million
 
Latin America -- 150,000
 
Africa -- 1.7 million
 
Afghanistan -- 1.5 million
 
Communist movements, parties not in power -- 10,000
 
 

No they didn't.Most of the numbers are exaggerated and not caused by le ebil gobbunizmz 

 

Stalin numbers:http://i.imgur.com/fTD5G9v.png

 

China actually had famines very regularly that were even more severe.Mao's plan ENDED a famine and ALL future famines

 

>Vietnam

what do you expect in a war?Same thing with Afghanistan

 

Its funny how you mention Cambodia since the US assisted Pol Pot by bombing Cambodia throughout the '60s

 

Really?Africa?The majority of Africa today is capitalist and it still is a shithole with famines happening more regularly than rain (>inb4 NOT TRUE CAPITALISM!!!111!)

 

 

You list no source for those numbers.You just claim shit making it a flaming hot OPINION

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lol communism is backwards 1800 hundreds nonsense that follows long debunked theories

 

it's like using newton's theories of gravity for modern physics. get with the times 

''Get with the times''

 

Wealth of Nations was written back in 1776 btw

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All I've seen so far are the snarky, dismissive comments typical of those elicited when attempting to discuss anything with a liberal.

Anyone who thinks that dismissing someone as a "syphilityc jew" is a valid argument, can be a lot of things, but a "liberal" isn't one of them.

Edited by Ivan the Red
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I liked adam smith though... his works are easy to understand znd i hardly can find an author who can better explain trade or inflation or other basic economic concept. I don t think a real economist(which i m not btw) can overlook the work of adam smith.

I agree.

 

Neither can a real economist (or social sciencist in general) overlook Marx.

 

This is why I pointed that it's silly to dismiss someone's writtings for being a few hundred years old. After all, we still read the classical greeks.

Edited by Ivan the Red
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This is why I pointed that it's silly to dismiss someone's writtings for being a few hundred years old. After all, we still read the classical greeks.

Not trying to argue one way or the other (I haven't been keeping up with this thread, so IDK what's going on), but we don't read Galileo's book on "proving" the center of the world. 

NODOLsmall.png.a7aa9c0a05fa266425cd7e83d8ccb3dd.png

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Ah, finally, the mommy's 16 year old proletarians have arrived with their tired whataboutist excuses.

No they didn't.Most of the numbers are exaggerated and not caused by le ebil gobbunizmz 

Stalin numbers:http://i.imgur.com/fTD5G9v.png

China actually had famines very regularly that were even more severe.Mao's plan ENDED a famine and ALL future famines

>Vietnam
what do you expect in a war?Same thing with Afghanistan

Its funny how you mention Cambodia since the US assisted Pol Pot by bombing Cambodia throughout the '60s

Really?Africa?The majority of Africa today is capitalist and it still is a shithole with famines happening more regularly than rain (>inb4 NOT TRUE CAPITALISM!!!111!)


You list no source for those numbers.You just claim shit making it a flaming hot OPINION

Listen, kid, the numbers I gave were very conservative in that they were extremely lowball. I've seen your infographic denying that Stalin killed anyone floating around on leftypol threads on another website, and only a retard could fall for them. Notice how the 1926-1951 numbers are very carefully chosen to exclude the years during which the first Red Terror took place during the civil war (1918-1922), where an estimated 140,000 people were executed by the KGB predecessor, the Cheka, and the Povolzhye famine, which was caused by the forcible expropriation of crops produced by the peasants for use by the Red Army during the civil war. It is estimated that two to five million people died during the Povolzhye famine.

 

Furthermore, the Soviet Union annexed a number of territories between 1939 and 1945, including a part of Finnish Karelia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia (Moldova), Eastern Poland, Kaliningrad, and Sakhalin. Following the war, many people on occupied territories were forcibly repatriated into the Soviet Union. Finally, 1951 is several years after the end of the Second World War; from 1936 to 1955, abortion in the Soviet Union was made illegal due to concerns about population growth (probably because they were killing millions of their own citizens). All these factors can account for the numbers in your image, which show a superficial increase in population numbers. Edit: Just remember that when you deny deaths caused by communism, that it's illegal in many places to deny the Holocaust. You are no better than a Holocaust denier.

 

What did China do to "end all famines"? Do you mean the campaign to "destroy the four pests", where Chinese people were ordered to run around with pots and pans scaring sparrows so they would fly until they died of exhaustion? The campaign that reduced rice production because the sparrows ate insects that fed on crops? The only thing the Chinese did to stop the famine was temporarily kick Mao out of office until he caused millions of more deaths in the Cultural Revolution, where 30 million people died.

 

If communism is so great, why don't you go to Venezuela. I hear over there, they have just about reached a moneyless society just like Marx predicted. Just make sure to bring your own toilet paper, because it's a deficit item there; not that you're going to have much to shit since there's nothing to eat either.

Edited by Dindu
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''Get with the times''

 

Wealth of Nations was written back in 1776 btw

I'm sure you've read Wealth of Nations, as well as Das Kapital, all of Lenin's essays, Stalin's memoirs, and Slavoj Zizek's schizophrenic ramblings. It couldn't be that the Nation Simulator community hasn't changed at all since 2007, when all the commie kids were spouting off the names of books they haven't read that they spotted in a footnote from an article they saw posted on RevLeft once.

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Not trying to argue one way or the other (I haven't been keeping up with this thread, so IDK what's going on), but we don't read Galileo's book on "proving" the center of the world. 

 

Do you mean that since Galileo wrote in the 17th Century, he was wrong at stating that Earth orbited the Sun?

 

Because that's pretty much the logical fallacy in "Commies are wrong because Marx is from the XIX century", which you read again and again every time a bigot pretending to pass as a "liberal" writes an anti-communist rant.

Edited by Ivan the Red
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Never bring Africa to an argument if you want to discuss and economic idea ever again. Because economics has almost nothing to do with how !@#$ terrible Africa has always been/

 

And why do you think the africans can't stop fighting each other? Aren't there economic factors in how terrible Africa is?

 

Don't you think that, for example, the fact that Congo is the most unstable place in Africa may be related to it containing 80% of the Coltan reserves in the world?

Edited by Ivan the Red
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bigot

Still throwing around petty insults, I see. I presume you don't have any thing to comment about the millions of people that were starved to death or murdered for thoughtcrime? Or my refutation of the disgusting infographic denying that Stalin killed anyone using faulty logic, one par with Holocaust denial?

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snip

 

The classic misconception is to label the USSR and its associates in the cold war "Communist". Were they by definition "Communist"? No. Did they enact the practice of transitioning the country into a Socialist society that would lead to a Communist society? No. Venezuela was transformed by "Bolivarian" nationalist populist state under Hugo Chavez who later left Venezuela near bankruptcy, which not even his successor has begin to counter.

 

The only thing you bash is essentially the idea of centrally planned economies that adopts State Capitalism, and enacts Keynesian economics. Marx and Engels literature clearly defines state capitalism as a social system combining capitalism (the wage system of producing and appropriating surplus value) with ownership or control by a state. By definition, a state capitalist country controls the economy (whenever directly or indirectly) and essentially acts like a singular massive corporation lacking innovation in the market.

 

Engels himself would later say in the book "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" that state ownership of the economy (which most self-proclaimed socialist/communist states do) socialism: is not doing away with capitalism, including the process of capital accumulation (assets to gain more wealth) and structure of wage labor (where the worker sells their labour for payment). Engels even argued that state ownership of commercial industry would represent the final stage of capitalism, consisting of ownership and management of large-scale production.

 

The USSR and other "communist/socialist" states ARE not what they claim to be, saying and doing are two different concepts. Karl Marx even summarized that a "Communist" society would be a secular, humane, classless stateless society, with peace and the end of exploitation of the comman man's labor.  

 

As for the deaths? I can't argue against that, murder is murder. I honestly don't care how many people they murdered, as murder cannot be justified for even one single person. The USSR and other "communist regimes" were notorious for state sponsored terrorism.

 

Oh and to clear this up, Stalin was a self-centered man who relied on a cult of personality while using state terror to stay in power. Mao was a radical populist and believer of agrarianism, who also adopt Stalin's approach and appeal to nationalism. All of the other regimes, were puppet states that were controlled by the USSR. But Kampuchea (Cambodia) wasn't even trying to achieve socialism, it was trying to achieve "Khmer values" and instill radical nationalism while saying education was "bourgeois", they even believe that rural life was better compared to urban life (Pol Pot was a radical maoist btw). So yeah, these men truly do represent a idea that was meant for a "CLASSLESS" society. The truth is these men were dogmatic and reactionary to Karl Marx's and Engels ideas.

 

You can argue how the idea of Communism and Socialism is flawed, but the same can be said for all economic platforms, as nothing human made is perfect.

Edited by Comrade Enver Hoxha
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Africa isn't shit because of capitalism, Africa is shit because they can't stop fighting for a year and fix things.

I mean, look at South Sudan. They fight and win a civil war, and then start a civil war within their new country. yaaay.

Africa proves time and time again that they're shit. I'm not going to be a wacis, but I'd just like to point out that the majority of "successful" African countries are in the east... where the Arabs are/were.

They blamed the problems on the Europeans, and they were right to do so, as many of them were caused by us. But literally not 10 years (being generous) after European powers granted sovereignty to a nation almost all of them had gone through a coup, civil war, or revolution. (sometimes all three, multiple times)

South Africa and Zimbabwe got rid of white minority rule, and crime shot up in South Africa while the racial tensions remained (but flipped) and in Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) the economy !@#$ died and they faced a huge famine when all the white people left, because the white people had the farms.

The African continent is a joke. It'll be a joke for centuries to come.

 

Never bring Africa to an argument if you want to discuss and economic idea ever again. Because economics has almost nothing to do with how !@#$ terrible Africa has always been/

Lol what? Hold up, have you seen most of these horrible regimes that were supported by both the east and west? Firstly, let's look at Zaire (modern day congo) which was led under Mobutu and supported by the west. Mobutu had INTENTIONALLY made his economy and his military be inefficient and in poor quality. He did this so people could not overthrow him,appear as a "savior of the country", while getting millions upon millions from foreign aid from the west. He is known and was very notorious for embezzlement (latest estimate is 5 billion usd dollars).  

 

Now looking on the east sponsored side regimes, you can look at Siad Barre (Somalia) and Idi Amin (Uganda), both were ruthless tyrants that were supported by the east. Both of these regimes have finally collapse, and what is the end result? Somalia has a limited and weak central government, while Uganda experiences daily insurgencies either by Christian theocratic fundamentalist or rebel groups from eastern Congo. 

 

The fact of the matter is that Africa is in the state it's currently in is due to many years of foreign meddling and imperialism, that did not benefit the people of Africa in the slightest. South Africa only resembles the only stable economy in Africa, but even then it's starting to wither away. Most people of Africa are now appealing to populist rhetoric, that results in destructive instability for the region. Mugabe is a horrible leader, but uses the economic sanctions as "legitimate" reason on why the outside world is somehow trying to usurp their way of life. 

 

Oh and, I will bring an economic idea to Africa, both ideologies that were involved in the cold war had a major component that was directly related to economics. 

Edited by Comrade Enver Hoxha
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Still throwing around petty insults, I see. I presume you don't have any thing to comment about the millions of people that were starved to death or murdered for thoughtcrime? Or my refutation of the disgusting infographic denying that Stalin killed anyone using faulty logic, one par with Holocaust denial?

 

You talk as if murdering people was an unique characteristic of communist regimes. When truth is, all of Stalin's kills add up together pale in front of the ruler with the highest body count in the history of mankind: Empress Victoria of the British Empire.

Edited by Ivan the Red
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REAL COMMUNISM HASN'T BEEN TRIED.

You don't say.

 

 

WHATABOUT

I've been around the block and heard it all, guys. You need to start coming up with some original material.

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