War Ending

[Roquentin]

 

Now it's my turn to correct you

The concern was specifically with Vanguard peacing out, as we did not have any wild notion that either Vanguard or Rose had any influence over Arrgh (pirates gonna pirate, after all). We were told that Vanguard declined to peace out, so whether or not Arrgh peaced out would have been a moot point either way.

 

 

 

I don't even think it's a historical inaccuracy so much as there were too many people involved, and no one was in the same room at the same time. You, MrHat, TUGT, and Pfeiffer were all talking in some combination, and somewhere in there Tim Armstrong (at that time of tS) and Abbas (at that time still active in Rose) managed to get involved too, and it all became a big shitpile pretty quickly. It's my understanding that Abbas had asked Tim to ask Mensa to cease the raids by a certain date, the same date by which the raids ended up actually ending, but it sounds like maybe Abbas didn't tell Vanguard he was doing that (or perhaps just didn't tell you, specifically? idk)

 

Meanwhile there was an alleged ceasefire that was violated by spying on both sides, and it's contested who actually spied first, and that was the logic I was given for Vanguard retaliating. All of these could be true, maybe none of them are, but I would hope you might see why I'm quite happy to peg this as a failure to communicate more than anything else.

 

I might have not correctly remembered that discussion between Partisan/MrHat with regards to peacing out for the 1 v 1 since I remember both Vanguard and Arrgh being mentioned.  Maybe they didn't have the expectation of Arrgh peacing out like you said, so I'm willing to concede the point.

 

I wasn't actually involved in terms of taking an active part until near the end of the wider war when both Carter and MrHat were unavailable aside from having access to the discussions posted.  If Abbas and Tim had reached an agreement(not sure on this one), he might have told Carter(who isn't around to ask), but MrHat was under the impression that his last discussion with Pfeiffer was definite and unaware of a date set being binding. I'm only able to go off what was available internally, unfortunately. I can understand your perspective on it with that being said.  The original point this side discussion stemmed from was about not tying into a bloc not working out for Vanguard, so I think James' point stands that being paperless didn't work out for us due to the situation being possible in the first place with repeat raids.

[MrHat]

 

Now it's my turn to correct you

The concern was specifically with Vanguard peacing out, as we did not have any wild notion that either Vanguard or Rose had any influence over Arrgh (pirates gonna pirate, after all). We were told that Vanguard declined to peace out, so whether or not Arrgh peaced out would have been a moot point either way.

 

 

 

I don't even think it's a historical inaccuracy so much as there were too many people involved, and no one was in the same room at the same time. You, MrHat, TUGT, and Pfeiffer were all talking in some combination, and somewhere in there Tim Armstrong (at that time of tS) and Abbas (at that time still active in Rose) managed to get involved too, and it all became a big shitpile pretty quickly. It's my understanding that Abbas had asked Tim to ask Mensa to cease the raids by a certain date, the same date by which the raids ended up actually ending, but it sounds like maybe Abbas didn't tell Vanguard he was doing that (or perhaps just didn't tell you, specifically? idk)

 

Meanwhile there was an alleged ceasefire that was violated by spying on both sides, and it's contested who actually spied first, and that was the logic I was given for Vanguard retaliating. All of these could be true, maybe none of them are, but I would hope you might see why I'm quite happy to peg this as a failure to communicate more than anything else.

 

 

I mean, you definitely aren't wrong about the lack of communication. 

 

The only thing that I know of/remember about a date, neither Abbas nor Tim were involved, but that Pfieffer had told Mensa to not raid after a certain date, but that was never told to Vanguard until after we had already countered, and no one else from Mensa had either. 

 

I had logs from Pfieffer saying that according to their raiding rules, Vanguard was free to raid and in an almost antagonistic way, told me that we were free to retaliate.  Basically all of our alliance had been beiged (which is when the raiding stopped because we were all beiged), and during that is when Pfieffer went and told Mensa to not raid us without telling us. We were 100% expecting Mensa to continue raiding based on the information we had, which is why we declared on them. 

[Jon Snow]

No.No.No.NO

 

we do not need to seriously rehash that shitstorm do we?

[Ole]

No.No.No.NO

 

we do not need to seriously rehash that shitstorm do we?

Honestly id rather rehash the old ones, cause the new ones are exponentially worse every !@#$ing time.

[Beowulf the Second]

yeah compared to this steve stuff id rather rehash that any day. seriously, you've got me missing clarke

[Prozenz]

Too much words, where is the stat? Infra damage, money destroyed, etc.

[Eumirbago]

Too much words, where is the stat? Infra damage, money destroyed, etc.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mBwjn9P0GssrXv6JZD9qG0fnMLIyGs40L-Mw9ipwL1c/edit#gid=1592068419

[MrHat]

Also NPO has a bad reputation, I know we're not supposed to mention Bob but NPO was pretty evil in their (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) heydey, the blocs they led steamrolled over every alliance who even slightly looked at them at the wrong way, and some were rolled just because. Their was a time during the hegemoney when even saying something on the forums that could be interpreted as anti-NPO could get your nation abandoned by its alliance and rolled. It's up to NPO to prove to Orbis that they aren't the same fascist monster goosestepping their way to global domination.

 

Literally the opposite of what NPO has been doing  in this game, yet people still somehow think this is what we are doing. 

 

NPO hasn't been that way for years. 

[Jodo]

Literally the opposite of what NPO has been doing in this game, yet people still somehow think this is what we are doing.

 

NPO hasn't been that way for years.

If NPO didn't want the stigma and history to follow them, they shouldn't have brought the NPO name/brand/etc here. Same for every other alliance with a history of other worlds.

[Prozenz]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mBwjn9P0GssrXv6JZD9qG0fnMLIyGs40L-Mw9ipwL1c/edit#gid=1592068419

Well thank you, sir.

[Buorhann]

I mean, you definitely aren't wrong about the lack of communication. 

 

The only thing that I know of/remember about a date, neither Abbas nor Tim were involved, but that Pfieffer had told Mensa to not raid after a certain date, but that was never told to Vanguard until after we had already countered, and no one else from Mensa had either. 

 

I had logs from Pfieffer saying that according to their raiding rules, Vanguard was free to raid and in an almost antagonistic way, told me that we were free to retaliate.  Basically all of our alliance had been beiged (which is when the raiding stopped because we were all beiged), and during that is when Pfieffer went and told Mensa to not raid us without telling us. We were 100% expecting Mensa to continue raiding based on the information we had, which is why we declared on them. 

 

 

I'm just curious, how else would Pfeiffer have handled that?

 

The raids stopped on the day they were meant to stop by.  He didn't care whether you guys retaliated or not ( I mean, if you were leading a military power house, how would you feel? ), because Mensa had nothing to fear from Vanguard.

 

Also, "expecting Mensa to continue raiding" - I mean, there was a pretty decent gap between the raids halting and Vanguard declaring.  There was little to no reason, other than being commanded to, for Mensa to stop raiding.  Mensa had plenty of stockpile, plenty of military firepower, and plenty of activity to really demolish Vanguard if Mensa wanted to.  The fact there was a week at least in between the raids stopping and the war starting - that should've showed something to you guys.

[Saru]

If NPO didn't want the stigma and history to follow them, they shouldn't have brought the NPO name/brand/etc here. Same for every other alliance with a history of other worlds.

 

What happened to keeping the two games separate? 

[Jakeman4]

We kinda threw that out when people started pulling CBs out of other games...

[Buorhann]

What happened to keeping the two games separate? 

 

You're referring to the leaked screenshot of the recruitment message, right?

[Roy Mustang]

We kinda threw that out when people started pulling CBs out of other games...

 

Our formal CB, per our DoW, was literally "Evil Corp/Leeroy Jenkins".

[Foltest]

What happened to keeping the two games separate? 

 

.... Isn't that the point being made by leaving (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) alliances back in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways)? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question/implication.

 

 

 

I agree that NPO is getting shat on for doing the same thing every other new alliance does when they come into the world.

 

NPO didn't come in with 6+ treaties, they founded with like one or two - like any normal new group.

[Ogaden]

What happened to keeping the two games separate? 

 

I appreciate the sentiment but haven't you guys basically signed with all your traditional (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) allies and I remember most of your gov from when you were in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways)?

[MrHat]

I'm just curious, how else would Pfeiffer have handled that?

 

The raids stopped on the day they were meant to stop by.  He didn't care whether you guys retaliated or not ( I mean, if you were leading a military power house, how would you feel? ), because Mensa had nothing to fear from Vanguard.

 

Also, "expecting Mensa to continue raiding" - I mean, there was a pretty decent gap between the raids halting and Vanguard declaring.  There was little to no reason, other than being commanded to, for Mensa to stop raiding.  Mensa had plenty of stockpile, plenty of military firepower, and plenty of activity to really demolish Vanguard if Mensa wanted to.  The fact there was a week at least in between the raids stopping and the war starting - that should've showed something to you guys.

 

The gap between the raids halting and Vanguard declaring were exactly the amount of time it took us to get out of beige, when we expected Mensa to keep raiding, as I said before. 

 

You realize I'm agreeing with you right? That is why we hit Mensa, because there was no reason for Mensa to stop raiding us unless being told to stop. Pfieffer could've told us that he told Mensa to not raid us? 

 

 

If NPO didn't want the stigma and history to follow them, they shouldn't have brought the NPO name/brand/etc here. Same for every other alliance with a history of other worlds.

 

.... Isn't that the point being made by leaving (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) alliances back in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways)?   Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question/implication.

 

 

 

I agree that NPO is getting shat on for doing the same thing every other new alliance does when they come into the world.

 

NPO didn't come in with 6+ treaties, they founded with like one or two - like any normal new group.

 

I appreciate the sentiment but haven't you guys basically signed with all your traditional (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) allies and I remember most of your gov from when you were in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways)?

 

To be honest, I see a huge difference in calling NPO evil and "NPO (needing) to prove to Orbis that they aren't the same fascist monster goosestepping their way to global domination." and being friendly with people that you already know. 

 

There are more members in gov of P&W NPO that aren't in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) NPO then there are who are in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) NPO. 

 

Yes sure, they're both crossovers. But holding grudges for something that happened 8 years ago and talking to people that you already know are quite different. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by MrHat

[Roquentin]

I'm just curious, how else would Pfeiffer have handled that?

 

The raids stopped on the day they were meant to stop by.  He didn't care whether you guys retaliated or not ( I mean, if you were leading a military power house, how would you feel? ), because Mensa had nothing to fear from Vanguard.

 

Also, "expecting Mensa to continue raiding" - I mean, there was a pretty decent gap between the raids halting and Vanguard declaring.  There was little to no reason, other than being commanded to, for Mensa to stop raiding.  Mensa had plenty of stockpile, plenty of military firepower, and plenty of activity to really demolish Vanguard if Mensa wanted to.  The fact there was a week at least in between the raids stopping and the war starting - that should've showed something to you guys.

 

You keep missing the point highlighted:  Most of the nations were beiged. Given sporadic raids had been an issue prior to the mass raid, there was no reason to believe the raids would not resume. MrHat was unaware of any end date until after the fact. It's really all not that big of a deal though compared to recent events, so this isn't an argument we're particularly invested aside from historical purposes.

 

You're referring to the leaked screenshot of the recruitment message, right?

 

A lot of  alliances recruit people from (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) including your own, so recruiting from there would have to be considered "a violation" for everyone and it hasn't been . Usually when there are wars or potential wars, it's a time to recruit more people who wouldn't have normally gotten engaged otherwise as it's more exciting ie. GOONS would recruit from Something Awful and get a lot of newer people from there when they went to war. We went over this a million times but highlighting player attitudes is usually a good way to get people revved up.

 

If NPO didn't want the stigma and history to follow them, they shouldn't have brought the NPO name/brand/etc here. Same for every other alliance with a history of other worlds.

 

There have been other alliances with same names/brands that actually were able to play different roles/end up differently.  A lot of alliances in LW for instance had names like (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) alliances and they did things differently. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Roquentin

[DragonK]

[Foltest]

Sorry if this becomes an antagonistic post. It's really just meant to bring up better talking points than Vanguard-Mensa wars and people's thoughts on (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways)-PnW crossovers.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mBwjn9P0GssrXv6JZD9qG0fnMLIyGs40L-Mw9ipwL1c/edit#gid=1592068419

 

At a glance, and doing mental math, I see a few points with these numbers.

 

- NPO put out half the damage of their counterparts

- Arrgh came out swinging surprisingly hard

- Polaris didn't really engage or get engaged much

- tS did the most damage and TKR had the best ratio

- Cornerstone had the only negative damage ratio in our coalition

- Everyone besides CS and BoC had a 2:1 or better ratio in our coalition

- Alpha had the only positive ratio (excluding their tS war stats apparently)

- Alpha, NAC, and Sparta are the only three who avoided a 1:2 or worse ratio

- tS took more damage than anyone besides UPN/VE/Rose/NPO in the opposing coalition

 

 

 

-------

 

 

- the vast majority of fighting occured between UPN/VE/Rose/NPO and tS/BK/Mensa/TKR

- Outside of tS/BK/Mensa/TKR, the other coalition members did roughly (slightly more than) 1/4th of the total damage dealt, but took roughly (slightly less than) 1/3rd of the damage received

- Outside of NPO/UPN/VE/Rose, the other coalition members did roughly (slightly less than) 1/2 of the total damage dealt, and took roughly (slightly more than) 1/3rd of the damage received

 

 

-------

 

- soldiers killed/lost ratios seem to hover around 2:1

- navy killed/lost seems to vary wildly but is much wider at 3:1 , 4:1 , 5:1, and even 10:1.

- tanks killed/lost ratio is ~2:1 for Rose/UPN/VE/NPO and much closer for everyone else in the Paracov grouping ranging from 1.5:1 to almost 1:1.

- aircraft killed/lost seems around 2:1 on average but ranges from 3:1 (NPO) to 1.2:1 (NAC)

Edited June 30, 2016 by Holton

[Jodo]

What happened to keeping the two games separate?

I don't play any others. Ask someone else. I'm a trigger puller, that's it.

[Aero]

Sorry if this becomes an antagonistic post. It's really just meant to bring up better talking points than Vanguard-Mensa wars and people's thoughts on (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways)-PnW crossovers.

 

 

At a glance, and doing mental math, I see a few points with these numbers.

 

- NPO put out half the damage of their counterparts

- Arrgh came out swinging surprisingly hard

- Polaris didn't really engage or get engaged much

- tS did the most damage and TKR had the best ratio

- Cornerstone had the only negative damage ratio in our coalition

- Everyone besides CS and BoC had a 2:1 or better ratio in our coalition

- Alpha had the only positive ratio (excluding their tS war stats apparently)

- Alpha, NAC, and Sparta are the only three who avoided a 1:2 or worse ratio

- tS took more damage than anyone besides UPN/VE/Rose/NPO in the opposing coalition

 

 

 

-------

 

 

- the vast majority of fighting occured between UPN/VE/Rose/NPO and tS/BK/Mensa/TKR

- Outside of tS/BK/Mensa/TKR, the other coalition members did roughly (slightly more than) 1/4th of the total damage dealt, but took roughly (slightly less than) 1/3rd of the damage received

- Outside of NPO/UPN/VE/Rose, the other coalition members did roughly (slightly less than) 1/2 of the total damage dealt, and took roughly (slightly more than) 1/3rd of the damage received

 

 

-------

 

- soldiers killed/lost ratios seem to hover around 2:1

- navy killed/lost seems to vary wildly but is much wider at 3:1 , 4:1 , 5:1, and even 10:1.

- tanks killed/lost ratio is ~2:1 for Rose/UPN/VE/NPO and much closer for everyone else in the Paracov grouping ranging from 1.5:1 to almost 1:1.

- aircraft killed/lost seems around 2:1 on average but ranges from 3:1 (NPO) to 1.2:1 (NAC)

We knew going into it things would end this way but we lakced experience of a world war. Either way we came out of it a winner having gained experience and learned what to do for the next one. Also, we actually didn't fair badly against Mensa. I know I personally had ground and air control for the entirety of my war with Mensa. Couldn't say the same for the charming friend however, they proved to be a good fight

[Beowulf the Second]

^CHARMED! GOOO FRAAAANDS

[Cromstar]

We knew going into it things would end this way but we lakced experience of a world war. Either way we came out of it a winner having gained experience and learned what to do for the next one. Also, we actually didn't fair badly against Mensa. I know I personally had ground and air control for the entirety of my war with Mensa. Couldn't say the same for the charming friend however, they proved to be a good fight

 

Don't worry. The offending Mensans have been flogged and sent to serve their time in the sand mines.